A Beginner's Guide to Competitive TF2

[waar]

Hey figured I'd post this here...maybe get some people interested in the comp side of TF2 (http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/story/43759/) :)

This guide is designed for and assumes the intended audience is a Team Fortress 2 player who has never played a scrim, or a pub team that has decided to branch out and expand into the competitive scene. Advanced tactics and specific strategies for individual maps won't be discussed, rather the focus will be on a general understanding of the game. The goal is to lay the groundwork for new teams and players to expand on themselves as they learn together. This can also be taken as a basic F.A.Q. as many of the ideas of what to put in were inspired by the many threads posted from new players asking these very questions.

Basic Logistics

This sections seems almost unnecessary, but I want to be as comprehensive as possible in introducing new players and don't want to leave anything out regardless of how obvious it may seem. You'll want to download Ventrilo (http://www.ventrilo.com) for out of game voice communication and get yourself a channel somewhere (if you don't have any friends and don't want to pay monthly just yet, then ask someone in IRC maybe somebody will hook you up). Second, you'll want an IRC client - mIRC (http://www.mirc.com) is best but any result on Google for 'IRC client' works too. Connect to GameSurge (/server irc.gamesurge.net) and join (/join) channel #tf2scrim to find a scrim, channel #tf2.gather.us to play a pick up game, or website ESEA (http://www.esportsea.com) to play a pick up game. The leagues you'll want to sign up for are CEVO (http://www.cevo.com) and ESEA (http://www.esportsea.com). Some people will say to join 'beginner leagues' but I disagree with that mentality. CEVO and ESEA are both open leagues where there are plenty of brand new teams, and you really don't want to stagnate in a league where you never play anybody better than yourself. If you do decide to go for a more casual league then there are TWL (http://www.teamwarfare.com/), CAL (http://www.caleague.com), and STA (http://base.sta-league.org/). Last but certainly not least, watch demos (http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/demos/). Look at how other people play, it will help you tremendously both individually as well as on a macro strategy level.

UPDATE: The European TF2 scene operates with the same basic principles, though different programs, IRC servers and channels. In Europe, Mumble (http://mumble.sourceforge.net/) is preferred for voice chat while QuakeNet is the main IRC server (/server irc.quakenet.org). The general scene hangout is #etf2l, while scrims work out of #tf.wars and pickups are in #mpuktf2.pickup.

The European scene is a little more robust with both a larger player base and larger field of Leagues to compete in. The top level - in terms of prizes, teams participating, etc. - includes names like the European TF2 League (http://www.etf2l.org/) (ETF2L), Enemy Down (http://www.enemydown.co.uk/league.php?event=495), the UKeSA (http://www.enemydown.eu/tournaments/) and the variety of ESL (http://www.esl.eu/eu/tf2/). TheSGL (http://www.thesgl.com/tf2/tournaments/) and WirePlay (http://tf2.wireplay.co.uk/) also offer up leagues and tournaments for play, though much like TWL/STA/CAL, at a lower level of competition. Demos of all of this can be found at such places like Cadred.org (http://www.cadred.org/Media/Demos/?page=1&cat=80&letter=) and the ETF2L.org (http://etf2l.org/demo/) site.

Classes & Maps

The basic 6man class format is two Scouts, two Soldiers, a Medic, and a Demoman. Most people identify themselves with one class and practice that one class. The maps that are played are push maps, the two most popular of which are Granary and Badlands. Well, Fastlane, and to a lesser extent Freight are also played in leagues. Gravel Pit is the one attack/defend map being played, with Dustbowl having been effectively phased out. A new map called Broma is emerging, but most people haven't even played it yet and probably won't until the week for it comes around in CEVO. Capture The Flag and Payload maps are not played at all.

UPDATE: Except, of course, for ctf_turbine, which has a great deal of playtime in the European TF2 scene.

Class Responsibilities

Depending on your team's style you may have different classes play slightly different roles than what other teams do. However, there are some basic principles that are generally used for the different classes and their jobs. At least one Soldier's job is to protect the Medic. There are two different approaches to get this job done. A team could either run a dedicated combo Soldier and a designated roaming Soldier, or a team can keep both Soldiers together and play it by circumstance (I personally prefer the latter as it gives you more options because you know both of your Soldiers can do both jobs). Whatever your team decides, know that the combo of Soldier and Medic is the heart of the team. It's where the action is focused. The Medic's job is to keep people alive, but just as important is staying alive. Do what it takes to survive, always pop your uber if you need it to save yourself. Because the Soldier is the only class that can consistently defend you, that is who you are attached to. Good chemistry between Soldier and Medic is vital to the success of a team.

One of the Scout's jobs is to cover flanks. When your combo is pushing in one direction you need to push in the other direction so as to prevent backcaps (this is especially true on Well). Come into the fight and attack people that are low - it's not always necessary to gun straight for the medic if you know that somebody else is about to die, or is closer to you and you can make them die. Take advantage of the enemy focusing on your combo, and stay alive to clean up. A Scout that survived the fight by turning the corner and avoiding Soldier aggro can come in and clean up the entire team if the medic died and everyone is low, possibly even winning the game this way. Go for medic picks when the opportunity presents itself (especially when you don't have uber advantage), but don't let this be your sole function. Go for back caps when the opportunity presents itself, but again don't let this be your sole function. You are very much helpful alive helping the combo win the fight, so go for back caps and picks intelligently and when it won't severely harm your team should you fail. Scouts should also be aware of enemy Scouts at all times. You should avoid letting enemy scouts roam free and pop out on your heavies. This doesn't mean you have to chase around scouts and try to kill them every time - at the very least keep them in front of you, and call their positions if you can't kill them. Keep in mind your Demoman's position as he will attract scouts; keep him protected. Letting scouts roam free will burden your combo tremendously as they will have to fight the other team's combo as well as trying to keep the medic alive from free-running scouts.

The Demoman's job is a little more versatile than the other classes. Depending on the location on the map and your team's strategy you can either come in with the combo or through a flank. Quite often you will find yourself without the combo but rather with the scouts, so it is important to develop a sort of cohesion between the Demoman and the Scouts. On many pushes the Scouts may be responsible keeping the Demo alive. Your default goal in a combo vs combo fight is to spam the enemy team with grenades and stickies, not always going for direct kills but to supplement Soldier rocket damage. It does often pay to go aggressive as Demo due to his high damage output, but when you do so do it intelligently and when the opportunity presents itself. Because you have sticky bombs, one of the best abilities of a Demoman is the ability to completely shut off a choke point. Get familiar with all chokepoints on push maps and learn the best way to trap it to prevent enemies from free access. Once you have it trapped, you can do all sorts of things with your scouts to bait others inside to blow them up, but for now, just learn the basics of controlling/blocking an area. Normally you'll be alone on one side with your scouts while the combo guards the other entrance so learn to feel the enemy push.

Communication

To be successul, you must know things that you don't see. For this to happen your teammates must tell you those things. Get into the habit of calling out low targets. If you know you got a few good shots off on somebody then say something. Have other people focus that person and get them down. If you're about to push in with uber, get the enemy Soldiers to shoot their rockets. See 4 consecutive rockets hit the wall beside you? Call that the Soldier is reloading and that it's a good time to push in. Call everything you see, where enemy Scouts are going, where the Demoman is jumping, etc. Even if it's obvious, chances are not all 6 people on your team are watching what you're watching. Call how many people are down, maybe somebody on your team isn't aware. Communicate when your combo has pushed into the room, or the yard. When the fighting has started. Your Scouts and (depending on position and map) your Demo need to know when to follow in so that everyone can attack together.

Push/Hold Dynamic

On 5 control point push maps (Granary, Badlands, Well - the most prevalent format) there are two states that your team will be in at any given point - holding, or pushing. If you're holding a location you're taking up a position that you don't want enemies to get passed as you wait for the right time to push. If you're pushing then you are attempting to take territory, usually either a yard, a control point, or a lobby.

I suggest doing this: take a map you want your team to learn, let's say Granary. Now take the following locations and states of holding/pushing and go over with your team exactly what you want to do and what everybody's chokes are going to be: (1) initial mid fight, (2) holding mid, (3) pushing mid->4 yard, (4) holding mid->4 yard, (5) pushing 4, (6) holding 4, (7) pushing 5, (8) defending 2->mid yard, (9) defending 2, and (10) defending 1. For every one of those 10 states (and you can add or remove based on the map) everyone should know what their job is. Of course many of those circumstances can be completely skipped depending on how overwhelming a victory or defeat was, that's why it's important to know when to back out and concede territory.

For example, on Granary you just won the initial mid fight, now you're chillin in the enemy yard but you used uber on mid and enough of the enemy survived and fell back to point 2 that it's guarded well enough that your surviving mid force can't take it without either the rest of the team respawning or getting ubercharge. So now let's say for example you decide to have your combo (Soldier + Medic team) holding right yard, Scout and Demoman holding left garage and Z tunnel, and the other scout watching the dropdown. The idea here is to watch all flanks as your team gets ready to push in. Nobody goes in past these lines (usually) until the combo is ready to push in with uber. You then push in with uber, everyone going in through pre-designated spots. If you succeed in capturing point 4 then you either (1) push straight into 5 (if the victory was overwhelming and your survivors can easily take it), or the more common occurrence: your enemy killed a couple of you and half of them survived, falling back to point 5 having popped your medic's uber. You're "reset" and everyone will now take up holding positions at point 4 defending every choke and flank until your team is ready to push in (usually as a result of getting uber, but sometimes getting key picks present an opportunity to push in without uber).

If you're defending - that is, you are in the holding state at your point 1 or 2 - then it's usually a good idea to get your ubercharge and then simply wait for the enemy team to push you (unless special circumstances prevail, such as a key pick or you getting uber before the enemy medic) since you have more to lose as you control less points. Everyone covers their positions and reacts to the enemy push accordingly.

Initial Mid Fight

The mid fight is a match within a match. The battle at mid sometimes determines the outcome of the round. It is one of the few locations on the map where a team can use different strategies in attacking it. Each map has its own unique standard pushes, but there are a few basic tenets that teams should work on. The first is speed. Many times the battle at mid is over before the first shot is fired because when you come out to mid, you find that the other team is there a year before you. Once you start progressing as a team, it is important for your Soldiers/Demo to know how to jump to mid from spawn. The best way to do this is to watch demos, and observe how they get to mid. Once you find out what they do, practice it yourself. Figure out a heal order/healthpack order so that both Soldiers and the Demo don't get to mid with 50 hp each.

The Scout battle at mid is also a crucial battle that can go a long way in determining who caps mid. Get in the habit of calling out your target with your Scout partner so you can immediately pick one off. If you can't take out a scout quickly, don't hang around to fight to the death. Retreat and plan your next move whether it's picking off their demo, or just protecting your combo from opposing scouts. The longer you stay alive the better. This doesn't mean that you should be totally passive and hang around your Medic leeching off heals from your Soldiers. Run around and shoot stuff.

Mid is basically who lands the better spam, and who takes less damage. If you feel that you have the advantage, try and push out to the cap and establish position. Positioning is everything at mid. Whether it's losing control of the crates at Granary, or getting pushed back to the back of the trains at Badlands, if you lose your ground, you're most likely going to lose mid. Spam well, take less damage, and be aware of enemy positions, and you'll greatly increase your chances at mid.

Territory & Spam

Individual players on your team shouldn't be so much concerned with getting kills but with simply damaging the enemy. The goal is to obtain territory and, if the enemy team doesn't give you the opportunity to kill them when they're low, this can theoretically be accomplished without anybody even dying. At most mid points, and sometimes 2nd points, the geometry of the map often favors a spam approach to winning the territory in question. As a new player your first thought on getting to mid may be to push the enemy and fight them at the optimal range of your weapon. However if you do so you will usually just die to their fully healed and defensively positioned force. Therefore, the idea on mid fights such as Granary and Badlands is often to spam the enemy with rockets and grenades, as well as scattergun potshots and opportune flank meatshots. You spam the enemy and slowly dispense with their health points, causing the medic to spread heals around. The goal is to force the enemy team to either fall back, or to make a mistake and give you the opportunity to go aggressive and take advantage of your... advantage. There are different ways of going about this - the classic method of setting up defensive positions immediately, or perhaps you can opt for a strategy that throws one of your Soldiers or your Demo close to the enemy off the start, then having them fall back after their initial close-range spam is done (however this is for your team to decide themselves). There are two outcomes of a mid fight that rely on how well you spammed the enemy versus how well the enemy spammed you: strategic retreat and aggression.

Strategic Retreat

Once you start taking lots of damage, it's clear your combo is at a health disadvantage, and if you hold your position any longer you're screwed, then it's a good idea to back out in order to survive and hopefully win the fight under more favorable circumstances. Basically, you concede territory in favor of being able to win the fight. This takes an amount of patience as well as general awareness, things that everyone hopefully learns over time.

A good example of what I'm talking about here is if it's clear you're not going to win mid then it's a good idea to back out into yard and survive. This gives your team the chance to come back at point 2 or point 2 yard, while if everyone on your team dies the opposite happens and you effectively lose both mid and point 2 as a result of the initial mid fight. On the flip-side of this, if you completely annihilate the enemy team at mid, killing 5 without popping ubercharge and only sustaining 2 deaths, then it's a very good idea to leave 1 person on the mid point to cap it while the combo and everyone else alive pushes straight into point 4.

Aggression

With all this talk of playing it smart and staying alive one can get the impression that you should not be aggressive, when this is from from the case. A team needs to be aggressive to win. It needs to be intelligently aggressive however, know when to aggress and when to retreat.

An important component of situational awareness is the ability to recognize when your team has the health advantage in the middle of a spam fight (such as the initial mid fight). Your team good healthwise? Nobody falling back as a result of getting damaged? The enemy team playing extremely conservatively and slowly retreating? This is an opportunity that many teams and players fail to consistently take advantage of. Taking advantage here and going aggressive (such as Soldier rocketjumping onto the enemy crates on Granary mid, or onto the enemy train cart on Badlands mid, or Demoman sticky jumping onto the medic) is key. It's an important aspect of the retreat/push dynamic. If the enemy is at an extreme health disadvantage, is being spammed back, but your team doesn't further aggress but rather holds on to the newly captured territory then you are basically forgiving them. Don't forgive them - punish them. Keep up the pressure and damage for as long as you conceivably can without overextending yourself. Again, this doesn't mean recklessness, it means a strong sense of situational awareness and the ability to recognize when these moments open themselves.

Watching Demos

While this is all good stuff for a new team and player to know, it can't replace the value of watching the best people doing it. So watch them. Go to the demos (http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/demos/) section on GotFrag and first watch a few demos of somebody playing your class. Then watch demos of every other class so you get an idea of what other people are doing. Then watch a SourceTV demo in free-look mode to get an idea of what a good team does together. Another important way to improve is to watch your own demos. Good players make things look easy in their demos. Watch your own demos and compare/contrast on what you're doing well and what you need to improve on. This guide is the foundation, watching demos is the next step, and developing on both of these tools as a team is the final goal. I hope this helped and good luck!


North American Competitive TF2 News:
http://gotfrag.com/
http://communityfortress.com/

[ruffles]

Great write-up. :)

[noob cannon lol]

begin flames here

[toolmaker]

Great read, thanks for the effort.

[jmjm]

nice write up

[ze Moose]

This needs to be stickied ;)

[RobertSummers]

Deffinitely. +1

So far no complaints about how crits rock.

[powderwombat]

theres no such thing as competitive tf2, valve only caters to pub play

[darienphoenix]

Great write-up, I knew most of the stuff written there but learned a fair bit too.

Definitely should be stickied.

[ze Moose]

theres no such thing as competitive tf2

Tell that to the 3000 players at ETF2L. And that's just one of the leagues.

[General Goose]

I don't mean to be a flamer, but to me 6v6 competitive play sounds incredibly boring.

Highlander doesn't though.

[beef42]

good stuff, 5star

[SgtWoodsy]

Very well-written.

Good job.

[blackbanjo]

Wow, you are awesome. Best write up I've read today. Keep up the good work.

[JadeNorse]

Very informative and well articulated

[The Stephen]

I've definitely been wanting to get into this.

[noob cannon lol]

I don't mean to be a flamer, but to me 6v6 competitive play sounds incredibly boring.

Highlander doesn't though.

don't generalize until you actually try it out...

[RobertSummers]

I don't mean to be a flamer, but to me 6v6 competitive play sounds incredibly boring.

Highlander doesn't though.

I used to think that until I tried 6v6. It can be lots of fun and its deeply filled with strategical decisions as well as on-the-spot improvisation and adaptation.

On the other hand, and to my surprise, I found highlander quite frustrating once I played it, due to the lack of firepower classes. And it only works properly for push maps as well.

[bahbahbah]

I don't mean to be a flamer, but to me 6v6 competitive play sounds incredibly boring.

Highlander doesn't though.

I would have agreed with you a couple months ago until I ringed for my friends clan in a practice 6v6 scrim. I don't find them as fun as Highlander scrims, but it's still most definitely fun!

I highly recommend trying all the scrim types. Every type I've played is much more enjoyable than pubbing.

[SometimesICry]

Get it added to the stickied Guides Thread.

[RothGelen]

This thread deserves a sticky, it has loads of potential.

[toolmaker]

Sadly the "Do you think Valve sometimes disguise as customer and post on this forum?" thread has more views and replies.

Bump. (cough** sticky **cough)

[Voyager I]

Waar is my hero.

+frags ahoy.

[r3dhat]

sticky this please, great article.

[BanjoPw]

wow, great article...sending it to some friends :D :D

[bitterman]

good read. sticky this

[waar]

Thanks for the feedback. :)

[Enjay]

6 v 6 is very entertaining to watch with two close teams.

I watched a video yesterday involving the TWL 6v6 league, Terribles! vs Kryptic gaming or something, and it was a very good match that was pretty even through the majority of the match.

[Injection of <3]

This is a million times more sticky worthy than that stupid tf2 comics thread.

[mordentral]

+bump

+sticky

DO IT NAO!!

[spykill3r]

Needs moar sticky.

+1 rep for OP

[Misurugi]

I don't mean to be a flamer, but to me 6v6 competitive play sounds incredibly boring.

Highlander doesn't though.

In 6v6 competitive, there's a thing called TeamPlay.

[Onawire]

Great article and post. Please sticky.

[TempusRob]

Another call for stickiness. The TF2 competitive community is needlessly misunderstood by a lot of people, and it would really be nice to see it continue to grow.

Great writeup waar, thanks ...

[ara_]

Great post, would read again, A++

[Okiryu]

Once again, nice post waar, +frag :D

[Voyager I]

I say we all PM the Moderators to sticky this every day until it is done.

[toolmaker]

I say we all PM the Moderators to sticky this every day until it is done.

Done ;)

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[r3dhat]

slight attention bump

[Voyager I]

So eram says he won't sticky a thread that just leads to another website...

...I'm pretty sure that'd be easy to fix, though. Copy-pasting shouldn't be too hard for a progamer like Waar.

[Proven]

It's also a four page article. Perhaps there should be a rewrite for it?

[waar]

So eram says he won't sticky a thread that just leads to another website...

...I'm pretty sure that'd be easy to fix, though. Copy-pasting shouldn't be too hard for a progamer like Waar.

Sure, fixed.

[SgtWoodsy]

Now there shouldn't be a problem getting this stickied at all.

To think this all started with the one post on GotFrag, eh?

[LIQUID`]

i got a fever, and the only prescription is more sticky

[ze Moose]

Now you're missing the Euro side over here waar! GJ anyway ;)

[Hydro2Oxide]

This is excellent. Thrown on #tf2.gather.us to the bottom, a little foot note. It needs s'more lovin'.

[waar]

Now you're missing the Euro side over here waar! GJ anyway ;)

Ah I'll edit it in sometime tonight or tomorrow

[toolmaker]

Still waiting on that sticky, please and thanks :)

[Ankich]

You might want to add one more paragraph discussing the various generic situations in which you might see a sniper (gpit, mid battles), spy (stalemates), heavy (last point), etc, and who switches to what.

[Swifty]

Awesome read, +1 sticky plx :)

[Gaarulf]

Wow. American TF2 sounds alittle different than eurostyle.

Anyone care to tell me the big differences in euro and USA play? I notice that the Demoman ain't such a big deal in USA as he is in euro (Byte..) And scouts also sound like they are more of singleplayers and not a duo.

Am I right, or totally mistaken by 1 USA demo (Pandemic vs something)

[Voyager I]

i got a fever, and the only prescription is more sticky

Sorry, you're restricted to one Demoman. You should really read the post a bit more thoroughly.











Just kidding. Also, well done Waar.

[Injection of <3]

WTF

Why is this still not sticky'd?

>:[

[TheDL]

Wow. American TF2 sounds alittle different than eurostyle.

Anyone care to tell me the big differences in euro and USA play? I notice that the Demoman ain't such a big deal in USA as he is in euro (Byte..) And scouts also sound like they are more of singleplayers and not a duo.

Am I right, or totally mistaken by 1 USA demo (Pandemic vs something)

Pretty much euro playstyle leads with their demo more, as a battering ram if you will. US leads with their soldiers. One can argue that this is because euro has better demos (Ryb, Byte, etc.), and US has better soldiers (Reptile, Yaug, etc).

The scouts can vary from team to team, but what I noticed is that euro scouts are a lot more passive and tend to just stick around til the cleanup, whereas US scouts are a bit more aggressive to the point where they may just kamikaze themselves onto the medic, and this aggressive style leads to more solo oriented play.

[DrFibroid]

Thanks for sharing this with the larger TF2 community, waar. I definitely endorse this for a sticky.

[?CrimsonRed¿]

worth a sticky...

[acdervis]

Speaking out for the competitive community @ the Steam Forums isn't usually that easy =)

Sticky...

[Haydos1983]

Get this sticked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JadeNorse]

Superior
Thread,
Important to
Community
Kthx
Yall

[Gracks]

Well written and informative.

[DOUK]

I'll forever be indifferent about crits, but this is awesome.

TF2 is the only game I'd go competitive for aside from Mario Kart :p

[waar]

TF2 is the only game I'd go competitive for aside from Mario Kart :p

Go for it, man. Just dive right in :)

[darienphoenix]

Well written and informative.

That answers all the "do you think Valve looks at the forums" questions.

[Voyager I]

Stickied like Dustbowl 3-2, aww yeah.

[discrider]

Good article.

Wish I could figure out whether I like it or not though.

Half of me says that extra-game voice comms is cheating (<- Spy talking) and that if you're not improvising then you're not doing it right.

The other half of me is saying that these type of strats is how you win games. Damn me.

Anyhow, might see how it actually works sometime.

[slakerson]

Well done.

COMPETITIVE TF2 WE COMING UP

[Th-]

Excellent guide to 6v6, and not too bad for a casual pubber either to understand better how to play a role as a class.

[Hydro2Oxide]

Thanks mods, this'll get some more people in to PUGs.

Stickied like Dustbowl 3-2, aww yeah.

Hahaha, It's funny 'cause it's true!

[Injection of <3]

WE DID IT, FRIENDS

WE DID IT

Group hug in the shower tonight.

[Number Nine]

How is this stickied? I mean, Valve doesn't cater to competitive play, why would they encourage this? Someone must have hacked a moderator's account, its the only possibility!!!

[waar]

Hey Moose, I finally got around to adding the Europe info to the OP.

[Nightbox]

good job m8

[Crit Fortress 2]

It actually got stickied? SWEET. :D

[El Carnemago]

Brofives and brofists all round guys, we got it stickied!

[watadarkstar]

I've played with waar a few times, great player. Congratz on the stick.

-Wata

[Atra]

Yesss... More teams.. plz...

[darienphoenix]

Half of me says that extra-game voice comms is cheating (<- Spy talking)

Spies aren't used much in comp play, but in leagues you can only get first person view while spectating, not third person. Therefore there's no way to warn teammates they're about to get knived.

[sartek]

"Sorry, but only registered users can download demos."

[Gawked]

http://www.cadred.org/

that's a better site for demos and stvs imo

[Number Nine]

cadred = euro

gotfrag = NA, registration takes ~10 seconds.

[Atra]

Regardless of Cadred being a 'euro' site, it's still a great place to watch demos.. Arguably the best teams in the world are in Europe anyways.

[waar]

coL is from USA, actually. :)

[Atra]

Crack Clan beat former Pandemic on their best map, Gravel Pit. 4K also beat coL, as well as Crack Clan. Complexity is good, but not the best. The best in North America, certainly. But not the best in the world.

coL has been losing more often as of late, possibly a death knell for the 'best team in NA.' They recently lost to Sway on Freight? I think? Correct me if I'm wrong. At least people won't be able to use the "Why pay money to lose to Pandemic coL." excuse anymore.

[toolmaker]

Crack Clan beat former Pandemic on their best map, Gravel Pit. 4K also beat coL, as well as Crack Clan. Complexity is good, but not the best. The best in North America, certainly. But not the best in the world.

Realize that these games are played online so one team will always have a ping advantage. When coL (or any NA team) beats a euro team on a NA server it means nothing, when a European team beats an NA team on a euro server it too means nothing.

Until a international LAN is held, NO ONE has the right to claim they're the best.

[Atra]

I'm pretty sure 4K has beat frmr pandemic with and without the ping advantage. =( I can't find the loss without the ping advantage though, so don't quote me on it.

nb: I never said any of the other teams were the best either. Just stating that it's generally seen that the TF2 competitive scene is more active in Europe, thas' all.

[r3dhat]

I'm pretty sure 4K has beat frmr pandemic with and without the ping advantage.

you'd be wrong. in fact 4k got 5-0'd in 15 minutes on badlands. pz

[A Seagull]

saying any euro team is better than an american one is just dumb due to ping differences

[cringe]

4k is doing pretty poorly compared to how pandemic did with the ping difference

They're a great team, but coL is much better.

[waar]

coL has been able to beat 4K on Euro servers. 4K has not been able to beat coL on NA servers.

[chocceh]

coL has been able to beat 4K on Euro servers. 4K has not been able to beat coL on NA servers.

I personally spectated such a match, and may have recorded a demo. I might be wrong but if my memory serves me right it was a scrim on a NA server. 4k won on Badlands.

It really goes back and forth too much to make a clear statement.

[Atra]

Whelp. Regardless of my thread derailment and epic memory fail, thanks for contributing this awesome article, Waar. Saw your +170-some +frag post that's part of this, and it's a great intro. If this had only been around a few months ago! Thanks again!

[neuroelectronic]

This sounds pretty boring to me. Only a few maps and a few classes? I thought I was interested in competitive play, thanks for informing me!

[noob cannon lol]

sounds does not mean is

[r2on]

I'll start this! Me and my bro are tired of ending up first on every pub server ;/

I want to get owned by people at these leagues :D

[acdervis]

This sounds pretty boring to me. Only a few maps and a few classes? I thought I was interested in competitive play, thanks for informing me!

So, public play is not only dustbowl and goldrush full of pyros, demos and spies? :eek:

[QuantaStarfire]

So, public play is not only dustbowl and goldrush full of pyros, demos and spies? :eek:

If you want to go that route, then by the OP's description, competitive play is just Scouts, Soldiers, a Demoman, and a Medic. One more class does not really equal a more varied experience. ;)

[chocceh]

Take your pub/comp somewhere else. IT'S OLD, TIRED AND STUPID.

[Durial32I]

Thats a very good guide. Good job

[QuantaStarfire]

Take your pub/comp somewhere else. IT'S OLD, TIRED AND STUPID.

Don't get me wrong. I can understand why those are the 4 classes you'd want. At the same time, however, it's a homogonization of the game. In the demos I've watched of competitive play in action, you usually don't see any other classes unless a team has ♥♥♥♥ed up bad, and it does little to save them most of the time. Pub play at least has the virtue that nobody will really care what class you pick.

[dKiWi]

Pub play at least has the virtue that nobody will really care what class you pick.

Wrongooo. If no one plays medic, or if there are 5 spies on the team, there is bound to be a pubber that is going to whine. At least you don't see whiners in competitive games.

"Why are there 3 snipers oh my god can you guys please play seriously!?!!?"

=_=

[QuantaStarfire]

Maybe it's just me then. I've never played a game where there was whining about there being 4 Spies and no Medics. I've heard people ask if anybody will go Medic, but no ♥♥♥♥♥ing or complaining when nobody responds to the question. :P

[dKiWi]

Maybe it's just me then. I've never played a game where there was whining about there being 4 Spies and no Medics. I've heard people ask if anybody will go Medic, but no ♥♥♥♥♥ing or complaining when nobody responds to the question. :P

I said 5 spies or no medics, not and.

[QuantaStarfire]

I said 5 spies or no medics, not and.

I don't think it matters, really. If you have that many of any class, there's a good chance that there's no medics. Regardless, I've never heard anyone explicitly whine about there being no medics, but I have heard medics whine about having to go medic because nobody else wanted to. I've never heard anyone ♥♥♥♥♥ out the spies/snipers/engineers about their class choices.

In any case, while the article is informative, the view presented seems to be narrow in scope. It omits the other 5 classes, and 2 of the map types for NA. It makes no attempt to explain the reasons why this is so, which is important for a beginner's guide. What if I'm a career Engineer who can't get enough of Badwater Basin? What if Spy is my best class, and 2Fort is my absolute favorite map ever? How am I supposed to take competitive play seriously in such instances?

The article makes it sound like such players don't belong in the competitive scene, which is rather off-putting. Comments like those posted by acdervis and chocceh, poking fun at/insulting pubbers and their class/map choices, only add to the animosity, and are counter-productive to the purpose of the thread. The article needs to explain the why of things, so the beginner understands the reasons for the choices made by the leagues and the competitive scene in general.

[ihira]

noob question:
Why arent popular maps like 2fort,dustbowl and payload maps played competitively? (I dont even remeber the last time I played on a populated 5 cp map tbh)
Why aren't classes like Engineer and Heavy played in competitive play? Are they no good on 6v6 5cp maps?

[Injection of <3]

noob question:
Why arent popular maps like 2fort,dustbowl and payload maps played competitively? (I dont even remeber the last time I played on a populated 5 cp map tbh)
Why aren't classes like Engineer and Heavy played in competitive play? Are they no good on 6v6 5cp maps?

Those maps are terrible.

Those classes ARE played when the situation calls for it.

[chocceh]

The article makes it sound like such players don't belong in the competitive scene, which is rather off-putting. Comments like those posted by acdervis and chocceh, poking fun at/insulting pubbers and their class/map choices, only add to the animosity, and are counter-productive to the purpose of the thread. The article needs to explain the why of things, so the beginner understands the reasons for the choices made by the leagues and the competitive scene in general.

You misunderstood me (I don't blame you - I take pure text the wrong way all the time). I was only saying that the pub/comp debate - both sides of it - is old. I don't care who's on which side; it's just been done too many times with no result. For what it's worth, I actually agree with you completely. I mostly pub but am part of a small clan, and I regret that competitive play is so restrictive.

Edit: At least, I think I we agree. If we don't, oh well, then that's what I think :P

[Proven]

I don't think it matters, really. If you have that many of any class, there's a good chance that there's no medics. Regardless, I've never heard anyone explicitly whine about there being no medics, but I have heard medics whine about having to go medic because nobody else wanted to. I've never heard anyone ♥♥♥♥♥ out the spies/snipers/engineers about their class choices.

In any case, while the article is informative, the view presented seems to be narrow in scope. It omits the other 5 classes, and 2 of the map types for NA. It makes no attempt to explain the reasons why this is so, which is important for a beginner's guide. What if I'm a career Engineer who can't get enough of Badwater Basin? What if Spy is my best class, and 2Fort is my absolute favorite map ever? How am I supposed to take competitive play seriously in such instances?

The article makes it sound like such players don't belong in the competitive scene, which is rather off-putting. Comments like those posted by acdervis and chocceh, poking fun at/insulting pubbers and their class/map choices, only add to the animosity, and are counter-productive to the purpose of the thread. The article needs to explain the why of things, so the beginner understands the reasons for the choices made by the leagues and the competitive scene in general.
It's how I feel about the article too, but it tries to sidestep that whole thing with a disclaimer saying it's only for once you've gone past that debate. It'd be nice if there was a second article that either explained the point of the main choice of classes, or spoke with a neutral stance about debate going on.

[bloodypalace]

In op you said payload and ctf are not played at all. However, they ARE played in leagues like CAL. Maps played are mostly ctf_mach4, goldrush and badwater.

[Proven]

Doesn't CAL have a reputation of being a beginner league or something? How come people don't know about this?

[QuantaStarfire]

You misunderstood me (I don't blame you - I take pure text the wrong way all the time). I was only saying that the pub/comp debate - both sides of it - is old. I don't care who's on which side; it's just been done too many times with no result. For what it's worth, I actually agree with you completely. I mostly pub but am part of a small clan, and I regret that competitive play is so restrictive.

Edit: At least, I think I we agree. If we don't, oh well, then that's what I think :P

Ah, I gotcha. My bad. :p Yeah, I'd say we're in agreement here.

It's how I feel about the article too, but it tries to sidestep that whole thing with a disclaimer saying it's only for once you've gone past that debate. It'd be nice if there was a second article that either explained the point of the main choice of classes, or spoke with a neutral stance about debate going on.

You can't really sidestep that kind of issue in an article aimed at newbies. They need to know the how and the why of certain decisions, or they can't make a proper decision on whether competitive play is for them or not. The four "Chosen Ones" are obviously exempt from the debate, because they're already in, sipping martinis and laughing at all the folks trying to get into Competitive Central's VIP lounge.

Those maps are terrible.

Those classes ARE played when the situation calls for it.

The map debate is a clash of opinions in my view. One man's trash is another man's treasure, as it were.

You misinterpreted the question. It's asking why those classes aren't played as mains as opposed to "In Case Of Emergency, Break Glass" classes.

Both are valid concerns for any newbie who has even a modicum of interest in competitive play.

[ihira]

Those maps are terrible.

Those classes ARE played when the situation calls for it.

Wow I remember your name from this (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1392826) I even posted too. Talk about small internet world.

Anyway what do you mean those maps are terrible?
Because they're not symmetrical and playstyle vastly differs from 5cp maps?
What about 2fort?

I can kinda see why Engineers would suck on 6v6 5cp but why aren't heavies used normally in comp?

[dKiWi]

Its actually just a beginner's guide. An advanced guide would include how to use classes such as the heavy or the pyro in competitive games. It gives a basic run down of the main classes used.



In any case, while the article is informative, the view presented seems to be narrow in scope. It omits the other 5 classes, and 2 of the map types for NA. It makes no attempt to explain the reasons why this is so, which is important for a beginner's guide. What if I'm a career Engineer who can't get enough of Badwater Basin? What if Spy is my best class, and 2Fort is my absolute favorite map ever? How am I supposed to take competitive play seriously in such instances?


If you are a career engineer or spy, you would at best be used as a substitute. Auxillary classes are usually played by the scout player, and players who can play Scout, Sniper, Engineer and Spy together are highly sought after clans. If you are looking to play any of the auxillary classes competitively, learning how to play scout will greatly increase your chances of recruitment as most teams sub the scout out for an auxillary class.

Playing scout and soldier together for example, is a bad game plan if you're shooting for the competitive scene as the projectile aiming of the rocket launcher will mess up with your twitch aim, and there is a low possibility that a team would sub a scout for a soldier and vice versa.

[bloodypalace]

An advanced guide would include how to use classes such as the heavy or the pyro in competitive games. It gives a basic run down of the main classes used.


Nobody uses spies, engies and pyros in competitive matches.

Class formations in 6vs6 matches are often:

2xscout 1xmedic 1xdemo 2xsoldier or 1xsoldier 1xsniper

and class formations in 8vs8 matches are often:

2xscouts 2xmedic(in leagues that allow two medics) 2xsoldiers 1xdemo 1xsniper and sometimes a heavy.

[darienphoenix]

Class formations in 6vs6 matches are often:

2xscout 1xmedic 1xdemo 2xsoldier or 1xsoldier 1xsniper

No.

10Char

[dKiWi]

Nobody uses spies

Um, no. Ever seen stab and sap, followed by 2 rockets and 1 grenade hitting your sentry gun simultaneously? I have.

Coordinated sap attacks are a common sight in the competitive scene.

[chocceh]

Nobody uses spies, engies and pyros in competitive matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8-kP01-iQM

Yeah, it's a PUG instead of a league match or something where people might play their most serious, but still. No.

[Injection of <3]

Wow I remember your name from this (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1392826) I even posted too. Talk about small internet world.

Anyway what do you mean those maps are terrible?
Because they're not symmetrical and playstyle vastly differs from 5cp maps?
What about 2fort?

I can kinda see why Engineers would suck on 6v6 5cp but why aren't heavies used normally in comp?

Yea it is.

Those maps are bad b/c they lack the strategic depth of 5cp. They're full of tight spaces and chokepoints that tend to reward spam more than skill. Your options on such a map are very limited and boring. It also takes forever to play thru a full round of goldbowl.

2fort is generally regarded as a joke "training mode" map for new players. Cevo season 1 tried 2fort (along with a few other mediocre maps) and matches on it turned out pretty horrible. Only time it was possible to get caps was when someone would get a lot of lucky consecutive crits.

Heavies arent used more often b/c they cant keep up with the rest of the team. Soldiers can rj, demos can sj, scouts run fast, and the medic is the slowest char. Take the initial fight for the middle cp for example. It is extremely important and whoever takes it has a big advantage. Thats why everyone tries to get to it as fast as possible. A heavy takes forever to get to the front, and leaves his team fighting a man down, and by the time he gets there the other team might have already secured off the area.

Aside from mobility heavies also need very good spots to shoot from, otherwise they get owned by focus fire since they cant reposition quickly while spinning/shooting.

[TheDL]

Nobody uses spies, engies and pyros in competitive matches.

Class formations in 6vs6 matches are often:

2xscout 1xmedic 1xdemo 2xsoldier or 1xsoldier 1xsniper


I use spy, engee, and pyro.

[ihira]

Yea it is.

Those maps are bad b/c they lack the strategic depth of 5cp. They're full of tight spaces and chokepoints that tend to reward spam more than skill. Your options on such a map are very limited and boring. It also takes forever to play thru a full round of goldbowl.

2fort is generally regarded as a joke "training mode" map for new players. Cevo season 1 tried 2fort (along with a few other mediocre maps) and matches on it turned out pretty horrible. Only time it was possible to get caps was when someone would get a lot of lucky consecutive crits.

Heavies arent used more often b/c they cant keep up with the rest of the team. Soldiers can rj, demos can sj, scouts run fast, and the medic is the slowest char. Take the initial fight for the middle cp for example. It is extremely important and whoever takes it has a big advantage. Thats why everyone tries to get to it as fast as possible. A heavy takes forever to get to the front, and leaves his team fighting a man down, and by the time he gets there the other team might have already secured off the area.

Aside from mobility heavies also need very good spots to shoot from, otherwise they get owned by focus fire since they cant reposition quickly while spinning/shooting.

I see, thanks for the knowledge. Never knew there was such side on TF2. I will never play a FPS that serious or competitively but its good to know.

[darienphoenix]

I see, thanks for the knowledge. Never knew there was such side on TF2. I will never play a FPS that serious or competitively but its good to know.

Give it a try, it's great fun and there's plenty of lower divisions for people who are just starting in the competitive scene.

[TheDash]

like.....i play pugs on tf2gather right now but aside from medic i am not realy that good at anything so i can't help me team at full potential. i would realy like to learn faster ^^

[Pepspro]

>tf2
>competitive

[dKiWi]

like.....i play pugs on tf2gather right now but aside from medic i am not realy that good at anything so i can't help me team at full potential. i would realy like to learn faster ^^

Medic is NOT easy to play in a PUG. Are you sure you're like the best medic already?

[Hydro2Oxide]

Medic is NOT easy to play in a PUG. Are you sure you're like the best medic already?

While easy isn't the right word for it, it's less intensive. It's the best way to learn player reactions and predict movement.

[TheDash]

i am not the best medic just a good one or lets just say i am beter then the most of the ones that i pug with...
so can someone tell me some other gather sites or what ever?? tf2.gather.us does pugs only during the night and during the day while i am most at home there are no pugs.

[RaCio]

i am not the best medic just a good one or lets just say i am beter then the most of the ones that i pug with...
so can someone tell me some other gather sites or what ever?? tf2.gather.us does pugs only during the night and during the day while i am most at home there are no pugs.
Well, if you can handle a high ping you might wanna try the european #mpuktf2.pickup(server irc.quakenet.org). There is always a pickup going on and there are always medic spots open.

[TheDash]

thx for that. you got your self a beer ^^
btw i am european ^^

[Lss40]

Is arena mode used in competitive play?

[bitterman]

Is arena mode used in competitive play?

There was talk for an arena tournament for a while. I'm not sure what has become of it. The short answer is no, no major league has an arena tourney.

[Clycon]

Where can i choose the buttons of voice chat with mic. I mean there is one button, but is it for team voice chat or is it just voice chat.. Can i assign one button to talk to my team and other button to talk to the enemy?

[bitterman]

Where can i choose the buttons of voice chat with mic. I mean there is one button, but is it for team voice chat or is it just voice chat.. Can i assign one button to talk to my team and other button to talk to the enemy?

Wrong thread. And no.

[DanielZKlein]

Is there a particular reason why payload maps aren't played?

[A Seagull]

Most payload maps are filled with chokepoints and just end up being 2-3 hour long matches that no one really wants to play

[Ko-Tao]

The short answer is no, no major league has an arena tourney.

A situation that makes me very sad indeed. :(

[Pepspro]

lol sandman in comp play

[Proven]

If Sandman isn't banned (I personally would prefer it not to be), I wonder what limits will be put in place for it. If a class limit is ever brought up, it would seem so stupid to limit Medics, Demos, and Scouts all to 1, at which point you're just getting closer to having a class limit of everything be 1.

I've read around on a number of league forums and I'm finding myself tired of hearing the "stun doesn't belong in an FPS" debate. You're playing TF2 as your game of preference because it's not like any other FPS in the first place...

[Injection of <3]

If Sandman isn't banned (I personally would prefer it not to be), I wonder what limits will be put in place for it. If a class limit is ever brought up, it would seem so stupid to limit Medics, Demos, and Scouts all to 1, at which point you're just getting closer to having a class limit of everything be 1.

I've read around on a number of league forums and I'm finding myself tired of hearing the "stun doesn't belong in an FPS" debate. You're playing TF2 as your game of preference because it's not like any other FPS in the first place...

The way comp tf2 is played is decided by the majority of comp tf2 players, and from what I've seen 99% of them are saying that sandman is retarted.

If you don't like the limits/bans you're free to ignore the competitive format, just like we're free to ignore your (worthless) opinion.

[Bodknocks]

I have yet to see any evidence that leagues are going to ban/restrict any of the new unlockables.

[Proven]

The way comp tf2 is played is decided by the majority of comp tf2 players, and from what I've seen 99% of them are saying that sandman is retarted.

If you don't like the limits/bans you're free to ignore the competitive format, just like we're free to ignore your (worthless) opinion.
Hey, thanks for unnecessary put down!

[Bodknocks]

I have yet to see any evidence that leagues are going to ban/restrict any of the new unlockables.

And just as soon as I say that (http://www.cevo.com/index.php?page=forum&func=viewthread&id=7853&forumID=2)... :p

[Clycon]

I have a question to spies...

You have a long hallway (with many twists and turns). On the one side is enemy base, on the other are your team. Basically they own the tunnel.. To start killing players you need to get into the other side of the tunnel. If you run disguised your easily detected because you come from a wrong side. You can't cloke the hole way thru because the tunnel is too long. The tunnel js pretty small so when you come in and cloke when enemy comes you are not only detected but it is hard to get past the enemy. Did i mention there are a lot of enemies in the tunnel? Anyway you also pretty much can't just cloak, run half the way, uncloack, recharge and do it again because there is a high chance that people see you cloak and if you are recharing then they might test you...

[ShadowOrigin]

The way comp tf2 is played is decided by the majority of comp tf2 players, and from what I've seen 99% of them are saying that sandman is retarted.

If you don't like the limits/bans you're free to ignore the competitive format, just like we're free to ignore your (worthless) opinion.

Sounds great, I'll stick to my normal play and have fun. Meanwhile, you competitive players can continue to whine and moan about an unlockable because you don't want to adapt to changes made in a game which you play because it's different.

Hopefully Valve takes a page from Blizzard's book, and caters to the masses more, IE not removing this.

[noob cannon lol]

More like the competitive community doesn't want to adapt to a weapon that makes the game less fun.

[Leox001]

Nice Guide, thanks

[Number Nine]

Sounds great, I'll stick to my normal play and have fun. Meanwhile, you competitive players can continue to whine and moan about an unlockable because you don't want to adapt to changes made in a game which you play because it's different.

Hopefully Valve takes a page from Blizzard's book, and caters to the masses more, IE not removing this.

Honestly, Blizzard? Starcraft is by far the most successful e-sport ever invented, Warcraft3 has had it's time of popularity in competitive play, especially in Europe and China, and they are now pushing WoW to become an e-sport through tournaments they sponsor themselves, not to mention the Worldwide Invitational for all their other games.

Hopefully Valve takes a page from Blizzard's book, and caters to the masses more, IE removing this now.

[Ino]

Agreed to Number Nine ;)

[waar]

Sounds great, I'll stick to my normal play and have fun. Meanwhile, you competitive players can continue to whine and moan about an unlockable because you don't want to adapt to changes made in a game which you play because it's different.

Hopefully Valve takes a page from Blizzard's book, and caters to the masses more, IE not removing this.

huh? Who's whining? The Sandman is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, so it's banned from CEVO. We don't care if Valve removes it from the game or not, it's already removed from our game. End of story, I don't see why you have to bring animosity into it.

[lakmastin]

If I can make a suggestion; there's been a bit of back and forth on the forum of late as to whether the more 'situational' classes (Pyros, Heavies, Engineers, Snipers and Spies) get much use in 6v6. Would it be possible to get a little section covering this, to clarify matters a bit?

TY waar :)

[randomnick]

and here is a little inspiration for those interested in picking up competitive tf2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6Up4pqFpKo

enjoy :)

[Nae_Blis]

In all games I play I look for guides like these to improve on my personal skill. This is definitely the best user guide I have read in a long while. Very informative and straight forward. Thanks!

[d_i_r_t_y]

nice guide. personally i would love to see a 9v9 tourney involving exactly 1 of each class.

[Barncow]

nice guide. personally i would love to see a 9v9 tourney involving exactly 1 of each class.

That's called Highlander. STA (Stronger than All) has a 9v9 highlander league and TWL (Team Warfare League) has a 9v9 highlander ladder.

9v9 is not as popular as 6v6 due to the slower pace and less ability for strategy (ie. since there is always a spy, you can't suddenly pop one out to surprise the enemy and catch them off guard), but its there for those that want it.

[Darklinklol]

If I can make a suggestion; there's been a bit of back and forth on the forum of late as to whether the more 'situational' classes (Pyros, Heavies, Engineers, Snipers and Spies) get much use in 6v6. Would it be possible to get a little section covering this, to clarify matters a bit?

TY waar :)

Snipers are most likely the most used, really just for extra killing power to take the Medic/Key Players, same for Spy really. Pyros/Heavies/Engineers are more for covering a point or on maps where the have good use (cp_labor). Just a short bit of info on those.

[Psydotek]

Snipers are most likely the most used, really just for extra killing power to take the Medic/Key Players, same for Spy really. Pyros/Heavies/Engineers are more for covering a point or on maps where the have good use (cp_labor). Just a short bit of info on those.
Pyros and Heavies are also useful when you're pushed back to the last capture point as both have immense firepower at short range since the fight for the last point is usually a close quarters slugfest.

One or both of the scouts usually change since firepower and endurance (health) become more important than speed. Maybe even the Medic depending on how desparate the situation is (i.e. just respawned and your uber meter is empty).

[flockoturtles]

Good stuff

[Darklinklol]

Adding a "terms" section would be a great addition.

I would be laughing hard if I yelled "MEDIC IS LIT" in a pug or gather and then the new guy says "We have a Pyro?"

[vicariouscheese]

Adding a "terms" section would be a great addition.

I would be laughing hard if I yelled "MEDIC IS LIT" in a pug or gather and then the new guy says "We have a Pyro?"

i now say this in pubs whenever i headshot ppl and i dont think anyone knows what i mean :(

[jinn_]

One thing to add to this post (I am going to try to contact waar) is that the website http://communityfortress.com provides competitive league coverage in addition to league/general TF2 news. If you want to get up-to-date with the competitive scene, reading the articles on that site is a good method.

[Mr.Magic]

Are there any highlander pug channels? (Europe)

[DrMetropolis]

and here is a little inspiration for those interested in picking up competitive tf2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6Up4pqFpKo

enjoy :)

Thank you for the link. I'm still unsure of myself about becoming a competitive player(I love me some aggressive Engie),but it was nice to see some highly skilled medics. I'm inspired to at least try and see if I can become a decent doctor.

[source144]

where do i get the match mode/ activate it??

[blackbanjo]

where do i get the match mode/ activate it??

Match mode? Matches are played on regular servers with only a few modified cvars. Most cvars control things that do not effect gameplay, but some do. The most noticeable ones are cap limits, win limits, timelimits, round limits, no crits, no damage spread, class limits, and no domination icons.

Really the only thing you would notice is the absence of crits, but you wont miss it.

[Kuiper]

Adding a "terms" section would be a great addition.

I would be laughing hard if I yelled "MEDIC IS LIT" in a pug or gather and then the new guy says "We have a Pyro?"
I'm actually writing up something like this right now, so far I've covered "combo," "lit," and "pocket," and I'm really unsure of whether anything else needs to be defined. Anyone have a list of common terms that people coming from pub play probably won't be familiar with? I can write the definition/explanation for each.

[Midnight Tea]

I registered just to say this, and for future reference it's pretty much my default response to hearing about TF2 tournaments with small numbers and class limitations.


No items!
Fox ONLY!
Final destination.

[Voyager I]

Thank you for your valuable input. It's clear that you speak from a position of authority earned by a deep understanding of the subject matter. We are honored that you took the time out of your day to register and post merely to provide us with your precious insights. Furthermore, your comments are completely original and are unlike anything we have ever imagined; only someone with your knowledge could conceive of something so inspirational.

[Barncow]

Yeah guise, lets play engineer demo med idle fortress instead.

:rolleyes:

[Midnight Tea]

Thank you for your valuable input. It's clear that you speak from a position of authority earned by a deep understanding of the subject matter. We are honored that you took the time out of your day to register and post merely to provide us with your precious insights. Furthermore, your comments are completely original and are unlike anything we have ever imagined; only someone with your knowledge could conceive of something so inspirational.

*laughs* Apologies, I know that was a rather canned and silly thing of me to say. But "tourney♥♥♥♥" really did ruin that game for everyone else. I say never forget, and never again let them homogenize superior, fun multiplayer games in the pursuit of their fool's quest for "perfect skill".

[vicariouscheese]

*laughs* Apologies, I know that was a rather canned and silly thing of me to say. But "tourney♥♥♥♥" really did ruin that game for everyone else. I say never forget, and never again let them homogenize superior, fun multiplayer games in the pursuit of their fool's quest for "perfect skill".

just because you dont like competitive ssbm doesnt mean the game was ruined...

also there are six stages allowed (plus like 4 counterpick) and the last major tournament was won by a jigglypuff. fox/falco are still god tier though~

[Midnight Tea]

just because you dont like competitive ssbm doesnt mean the game was ruined...

also there are six stages allowed (plus like 4 counterpick) and the last major tournament was won by a jigglypuff. fox/falco are still god tier though~

You're right, of course it's not ruined. I was using intentional hyperbole. Kinda like fakeposting, but honest. :)

I'm almost positive competitive TF2 isn't going to be ruined either, but it does worry me when homebrew rules become official or universally accepted. It's what happens when scrubs (as defined in David Sirlin's superior "Playing to Win" article and book) take over a community .

That said, so long as clans consistently play creatively and don't just ban everything they don't like or fits a very narrow view of the game, I have no personal problems with competitive TF2. That's neither here nor there though, so I'll be quiet now.

[GunnerGraham]

Thanks so much for such an informative,and,very professional write up.

[Kermitdefrog]

very good info thanks

[howerpower]

I'm really curious how to find more people who want to start a team to scrim. It seemed really easy back when I played cs:s, but I'm having a harder time with tf2.

[Kuiper]

I'm really curious how to find more people who want to start a team to scrim. It seemed really easy back when I played cs:s, but I'm having a harder time with tf2.
I'd recommend that you play pick-up games. They're useful for several reasons:

Pick-ups give you good practice for when you start scrimming
They're a good place to find like-minded people who might be interested in joining a team for the sake of scrimming
If you want to join an existing team, pick-ups are a good place to show off your skill and (hopefully) get noticed by others

[jinn_]

An expanded version of waar's guide can be found on the Community Wiki: http://wiki.commforums.com/doku.php?id=tf2:home .

Although this resource is brand-new and still needs expansion, there are quite a few articles for players looking to make the move to competitive TF2.

[Green]

How come the medic does not go with the demoman? What makes the soldier a better medic partner?

[blackbanjo]

How come the medic does not go with the demoman? What makes the soldier a better medic partner?

Direct fire capabilities as well as higher mobility. A demoman is also better suited to lock down chokepoints, and that is generally not a safe place for a medic to be.

[A Seagull]

It's preferance

European teams run with the demoman more often than not, most american teams prefer the soldier.

[gamer_key91]

ok then, am i just stupid or what is going on ?

when i try to watch demos from gotfrag esports (console, playdemo NAME) i get an error with something like missing "[...]DisguiseWeaponParity".

hope that someone here knows how to fix that

[Number Nine]

Most game updates tend to break demos, making them unviewable by conventional means.

[Benny84]

How to watch old demos (http://www.ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=30276)

[gamer_key91]

How to watch old demos (http://www.ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=30276)

For sure I will not Install a second Copy of TF2 and patch it to an older version. Its too much to do for just watching old Demos. By demos I mean (as suggested by the OP) good Fragmovies of competitive TF2 matches. And although theres not as much as on eSports (old Demos) I can still watch some good Fragmovies on youtube.

Thats enough for me at the moment, I just wanted to see some real skill with Demo or Soldier (airbanging people and stuff).

Competitive TF2 seems to be interesting, but its WAY beyond my effort on playing the game atm. I just want to play TF2 as Fun and Entertainment. The way its (good) played in competitive leagues seems like hard work to me.

Nevermind, thanks for the answers.

Gamer ~|Key|~

[vicariouscheese]

gamer_key91:
http://www.esportsea.com/index.php?s=servers&d=xhltv&id=1040265
that demo works, was the last finals match

if you go to pwnage.tv, they have matches there along with commentary. the downside is you dont get to choose who to watch, the commentator does that.

[Elite750]

gamer_key91:
http://www.esportsea.com/index.php?s=servers&d=xhltv&id=1040265
that demo works, was the last finals match

if you go to pwnage.tv, they have matches there along with commentary. the downside is you dont get to choose who to watch, the commentator does that.

my hero!!!

10heros

[Voyager I]

I agree that the process for viewing old demos isn't worth it just for general browsing.

It's more for people who want to watch a specific match, either because it was really good or they're recovering footage for a frag video or whatever.

[TheOwnerOfNoobs]

This is so good for the uber-n00bz! I am not one of those though.
Great article, completely perfection!

[Entropy_kC]

It's always confused me as to why people don't play payload maps.

[Proven]

Basically, it takes too long. Competitive matches already have such a scheduling problem that 6v6 has arisen as the most successful league format, and payload (and in relation, 3 stage maps like Dustbowl) are way too large and have limiting chokepoints, making matches last at least 50% longer than on other maps.

Correct the above if I'm wrong.

The thing that I wonder, is with the recent introduction of Pro Dustbowl (although I should probably check first to see how long it'll stay in rotation) why aren't there any moves to make a community payload, or payload race type map tailored for competitive play? I keep thinking about cp_freight, but that's probably because it's easier to create a 5cp map; just make 3 points and mirror for the other side. But a payload race could be just as simple. Unless the mechanic and the fact the carts pass by each other is seen as too stupid.

Also, what about Badwater Basin? Is it considered way too large as well?

And for 3 stage and payload maps, why isn't lowering the map timer? Instead of a possible 20 minute defense of stage 3 of dustbowl, can't you mess with the time values given for capturing each point so that at most it's a 10 minute defense?

Thanks in advance.

[Kuiper]

It's always confused me as to why people don't play payload maps.
In my opinion, payload (like ctf) is a gametype that hasn't seen a lot of play not necessarily because it is a bad gametype, but because there aren't a lot of good maps for it. However, payload does by nature tend to be quite spammy because the entire round centers around an objective that is incredibly small, forcing the attacking team to bunch into a small area to push it; I think that it's much easier to make a map work with capture points than it is to make a working payload map.
why aren't there any moves to make a community payload, or payload race type map tailored for competitive play?
For awhile, pl_waste was being playtested on tf2.gather.us (and I'm sure that the euro channel tried it out as well). pl_waste isn't really styled like a traditional playload or payload race map, however: there is only one payload cart, and both teams attempt to push the neutral payload cart into the enemy base. It's like a push map but with a cart instead of control points. IMO it's a lot slower (read: boring) than traditional 5CP push maps. There's no backcapping meaning that control of the map is largely determined by which team has more players up when the cart is being contested, and the payload cart is small and requires constant attention making it easy for demomen (and soldiers, to a lesser extent) to spam it. (It feels a lot like cp_junction in that regard.)

Payload race seems like a really dumb (and unnecessarily complicated) gametype; I think that the "tug of war" payload style used on pl_waste has more potential. However, I strongly believe that the biggest revision the payload gametype needs right now is a restructuring of the payload cart. I think that a flatbed train car would make it more like a push map and less vulnerable to spam problems.

what about Badwater Basin? Is it considered way too large as well?

mpuk (the European gather channel) does play badwater some. In fact, in the last two weeks (http://pickups.nocrits.com/mpuk/2weeks/), it has been played more than turbine. (In the past, it has also been more popular than gravelpit.) However, it's virtually never played in the US for gathers or for leagues (I'm not sure if any European leagues run it).

[Benny84]

It's always confused me as to why people don't play payload maps.

Because it becomes a rush to camp the other teams spawn in a quicker time than they took to camp yours.

[Proven]

Because it becomes a rush to camp the other teams spawn in a quicker time than they took to camp yours.

I was watching a match from a week or two on pwnage.tv, Loaded vs. 20ID on Dustbowl. Then again, Dustbowl has a number of ways out. Is it that easy to spawn camp on Badwater, even with Ubers + Bonk! + Spies?

[Benny84]

I was watching a match from a week or two on pwnage.tv, Loaded vs. 20ID on Dustbowl. Then again, Dustbowl has a number of ways out. Is it that easy to spawn camp on Badwater, even with Ubers + Bonk! + Spies?
What bonk and what spies? They do pitifully little to prevent spawn camping. A Bonk'd Scout will just get his head blown off during the cooldown period, same goes for Dead Ringer Spy (as soon you decloak and make that attrociously loud sound. If your Medics gotten stuck in spawn and you need to charge an uber to get out you're really in trouble.

I honestly wouldn't know too much about Badwater, but there's only one real way to exit spawn for the first two points, after that yes there are a few to many spawn exits to completly lock the enemy down, but one or two surprise spawn kills would go a long way to winning.

[Proven]

What bonk and what spies? They do pitifully little to prevent spawn camping. A Bonk'd Scout will just get his head blown off during the cooldown period, same goes for Dead Ringer Spy (as soon you decloak and make that attrociously loud sound. If your Medics gotten stuck in spawn and you need to charge an uber to get out you're really in trouble.

I honestly wouldn't know too much about Badwater, but there's only one real way to exit spawn for the first two points, after that yes there are a few to many spawn exits to completly lock the enemy down, but one or two surprise spawn kills would go a long way to winning.

Spawn camping would involve many different classes aiming at the spawn, but using a Bonk! Scout or a Spy (not necessarily the Dead Ringer either) to distract could go a long way, I mean.

[Locke, jeesh]

good readww

[xord96]

Thank you for the guide, but I hate comp play, too boring for me. I want to play as pyro, not have to worry about flanks as a scout.

[Kuiper]

Thank you for the guide, but I hate comp play, too boring for me. I want to play as pyro, not have to worry about flanks as a scout.
xord, have you ever actually tried playing in a 6v6 environment? I find that many people have their preconceived notions about competitive play proven drastically incorrect once they actually start playing. For example, before I had begun playing, my expectation was that 6v6 would become boring quickly and that highlander would be a much more dynamic gametype. However, after playing both formats, I found that highlander got incredibly stale very quickly, whereas 6v6 has been far more exciting than I ever could have expected.

Admittedly, part of it does have to do with the map selection. Before I started playing 6v6, most of the servers I played on tended to lean toward slow-moving like dustbowl, and most of the 6v6 games I've played as of late have been on badlands (a very exciting and fast-paced map). Still, don't knock it until you've tried it.

[xord96]

xord, have you ever actually tried playing in a 6v6 environment? I find that many people have their preconceived notions about competitive play proven drastically incorrect once they actually start playing. For example, before I had begun playing, my expectation was that 6v6 would become boring quickly and that highlander would be a much more dynamic gametype. However, after playing both formats, I found that highlander got incredibly stale very quickly, whereas 6v6 has been far more exciting than I ever could have expected.

Admittedly, part of it does have to do with the map selection. Before I started playing 6v6, most of the servers I played on tended to lean toward slow-moving like dustbowl, and most of the 6v6 games I've played as of late have been on badlands (a very exciting and fast-paced map). Still, don't knock it until you've tried it.

Yeah, but I don't want to waste time practicing on different maps and getting good as 1 class. I like having fun and being able to quit at any time. Plus, I only like 2fort, don't really like other maps. I would hate highlander AND 6v6.

[zuhane]

This needs to be stickied ;)

WAS THAT A DEMOMAN JOKE!?!?!?!?!? ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aserwarth]

Question, does competitive Spy exist outside of the highlander league? I play spy on public, and I have gotten really good, but I had never found out about the competitive scene till now. I had no idea that they were so limited in classes used. So is other classes, the spy particularly, ever used?

[Barncow]

Question, does competitive Spy exist outside of the highlander league? I play spy on public, and I have gotten really good, but I had never found out about the competitive scene till now. I had no idea that they were so limited in classes used. So is other classes, the spy particularly, ever used?

Medic, demo, soldier, and scout are the main classes used. This is because they are the most effective. They are quick and can deal damage quickly. However, this does not mean the others are never used. They are, but only when needed. You will see spy being used sparingly to break stalemates, because when he is overused his effectiveness goes down as the other team starts to expect him being there. Other classes are used mainly for defending last points on push maps and all over the place in gravelpit.

[Knesel]

How would one go about doing this? I don't have enough people to start my own team, but I'd like to begin playing with people who take teamwork seriously.

[blackbanjo]

How would one go about doing this? I don't have enough people to start my own team, but I'd like to begin playing with people who take teamwork seriously.

Find some people who PUG (pick up game) regularly or go on #tf2.gather.us or #tf2.pug.na throught IRC to get in a public one. This will help you get a feel for the competitive scene as well as introduce you to players that are likely higher skilled and know more about the competitive community. Once you get your foot in the door, you can begin to understand how good you are and what teams are not good enough, too good, or just right. Find yourself a group of guys that are fun to play with and you're set.

[Kuiper]

How would one go about doing this? I don't have enough people to start my own team, but I'd like to begin playing with people who take teamwork seriously.
Like blackbanjo said, you should probably start by playing pugs. Here's a handy how-to guide (http://wiki.commforums.com/doku.php?id=tf2:getting_started:joining_in:pugging _tf2). Things work slightly differently on #tf2.pug.na, but if you join the channel you can type !man in chat and that should get you all the documentation that you need.

[Magma Spire]

Made it on the TF2 Blog? Nice.

[timotmcc]

Featured. Great job, OP

[TaterSaL4D]

I don't care for the lack of classes. I feel it is discriminatory.

[StinkyD]

NOOO, VALVE NO!

They linked this on the blog post!

There are going to be so many bad players in pugs now!

NO.

NO!

2 weeks from now: PuGs are dead. The good players leave because they're tired of being on teams with 5 players who are all doing their first comp settings game.

I don't care for the lack of classes. I feel it is discriminatory.

You dolt. Not all classes are created equal. Pug play favors the best classes, it's not the player's fault that medic soldier demo and scout all have the best chemistry in relation to defense and offense. Engi, spy, heavy, and pyro all have problems that make them significantly disadvantaged. Nobody is discriminating, they're just picking the best classes.

[Gentlemed]

NOOO, VALVE NO!

They linked this on the blog post!

There are going to be so many bad players in pugs now!

NO.

NO!

2 weeks from now: PuGs are dead. The good players leave because they're tired of being on teams with 5 players who are all doing their comp settings game.

Usually the "good" players form/join a team long before that ever happens. PUG play doesn't have to be permanent.

[Stephen Colbert]

NOOO, VALVE NO!

They linked this on the blog post!

There are going to be so many bad players in pugs now!

NO.

NO!

2 weeks from now: PuGs are dead. The good players leave because they're tired of being on teams with 5 players who are all doing their first comp settings game.


Great, way to encourage people to try competative TF2. I've been trying to get into a PUG for a bit now, and I'm getting trouble. You're completely reasurring me into thinking people will be helpful and acceptive, and not the elitist ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sterotypes.

[StinkyD]

Great, way to encourage people to try competative TF2. I've been trying to get into a PUG for a bit now, and I'm getting trouble. You're completely reasurring me into thinking people will be helpful and acceptive, and not the elitist ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sterotypes.

I have no problem with a new player. Everybody was once a new player.

My problem? Two new players. Three new players. Two new players per team. Five new players.

6v6 is a know-how thing. You need a lot of experience to figure out how to play it, and you can only get experience from players who know what they're doing. The 'good' players cannot execute any strategy because the new players are still learning, and the new players cannot learn because half the team is new as well and has no experience to share.

EVERYBODY loses when a SWARM of new players join. One player is not what I am talking about.

The problem is that the blog post will certainly attract many new puggers who will end up on a team with other new players like themselves, and the team as a whole will not go anywhere even if 1-4 players are common puggers.

[c.wo0t]

all the good players already left pugs :)

[StinkyD]

all the good players already left pugs :)

touche

10char

[Kalishnikov]

I have no problem with a new player. Everybody was once a new player.

My problem? Two new players. Three new players. Two new players per team. Five new players.

6v6 is a know-how thing. You need a lot of experience to figure out how to play it, and you can only get experience from players who know what they're doing. The 'good' players cannot execute any strategy because the new players are still learning, and the new players cannot learn because half the team is new as well and has no experience to share.

EVERYBODY loses when a SWARM of new players join. One player is not what I am talking about.

The problem is that the blog post will certainly attract many new puggers who will end up on a team with other new players like themselves, and the team as a whole will not go anywhere even if 1-4 players are common puggers.

Cry more? this won't be the end of pugs

[Galgus]

Great thread, makes me interested in getting into organized matches, but I have a question. The main class builds you mentioned exluded Spy and Engineer, are there any legitimate roles these classes can fill? Ive gathered that Spies require enemies being shot at and distracted by your allies to be effective whatsoever, so I am not sure if organized strategies would hurt or help them.

[Stephen Colbert]

So I was playing one of my first pugs today as a medic.

The first one was pretty good, people were understanding and helpful.

In my second, my entire team was made of jerks, getting mad because I couldn't heal them as the rocket/sticked/double jumped away from me, or running around me in circles so I couldn't get my rectile over them, screaming for heals as I was dead, and raging and saying I should be banned because I didn't uber one of them as he rocket jumped out of my range and I couldn't see him to re-heal him and whispered "pop-it" into the ventrillo, which I couldn't hear over the explosions going on around me.

I guess they really don't appreciate medics, hate newcomers, and apperently theres a volume setting in ventrillo I can't find, or they just can't speak loudly.

[Kuiper]

NOOO, VALVE NO!

They linked this on the blog post!

There are going to be so many bad players in pugs now!

NO.

NO!

2 weeks from now: PuGs are dead. The good players leave because they're tired of being on teams with 5 players who are all doing their first comp settings game.
Just because players are not experienced with the format does not mean they are bad. Have you ever played a pug where someone ruined the game because they were inexperienced? The only situation I've ever seen that happen is when the new guy is playing medic and drops uber, and that can be mitigated by one of the regulars manning up and playing medic for him. (I tend to do this a bit more often than I'd like to, but more often than not it's a regular who just doesn't want to play medic.) I've seen many pugs ruined by players who didn't join vent when the game started or refused to play anything other than spy the entire game, but those aren't problems related to skill level. As long as people learn how the gather process works before they type !add, things should be fine.

Also: new != unskilled. Keep in mind that most of the people who are interested enough to actually start pugging are pubstars, meaning that they understand the basics of the game so you won't have problems with your team's soldiers getting to mid late because they didn't know how to rocket jump.

It really only takes one person who knows what they are doing to make calls like "hold yard instead of flinging yourselves at the enemy combo like lemmings one at a time as soon as you spawn" or "wait until we have uber before we start pushing." If the new players aren't willing to listen to what the experienced players have to say, that's a problem. But that's less a problem of "new players ruining things" and more an issue of "uncooperative teammates ruining things." As long as new players are willing to take advice from those with more experience, things shouldn't go too badly.



If you are a new player who wants to start pugging, feel free to do so but be sure you are aware of the rules and how the system works before you actually start joining games. I highly recommend that before you play a pug, you spectate at least one game while idling in vent. If you spectate that match, you can be sure that you know how to get in vent and how to join the server.

The time when people tend to rage most at newcomers is when you are playing medic. If you're playing on mpuk or tf2.pug.na, you have the choice to join the game as a non-medic class, which I recommend. Otherwise, try to join the server before the game starts so that you can grab your class as soon as you find out what team you're on.

One thing that does kind of bug me is that in the OP waar explains how to join the pickup channels but doesn't explain how they work. I've already PM'd him asking him to add a link to the guide I made for commwiki (http://wiki.commforums.com/doku.php?id=tf2:getting_started:joining_in:pugging _tf2) which does explain some important things that should prevent newer players from being a nuisance. I also just realized that that guide doesn't talk about tf2.pug.na (it's a relatively new channel) and I will probably update it tomorrow when I have time, until then here's an instructional video that was featured in the channel topic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cjZJqzwQ7I).

[Fykus]

Great thread, makes me interested in getting into organized matches, but I have a question. The main class builds you mentioned exluded Spy and Engineer, are there any legitimate roles these classes can fill? Ive gathered that Spies require enemies being shot at and distracted by your allies to be effective whatsoever, so I am not sure if organized strategies would hurt or help them.

Generally, teams will use an engineer on gravel defense at B somewhere. The reason it isnt used in any other maps is because push maps are too fast and dynamic for an engi to be able to set up properly.

However, sometimes engi's are used on the last point of push maps, depending whether or not the team has time to set it all up.

[boomar.]

lol comp TF2.

That is all.

[The Duke]

I've played my hand in some comp 24 player servers and have always wanted to try my hand in things like this.

[the_legion]

There is a difference between newbies and noobs in PUGs.

Newbies just need a little more experience, maybe some help from fellow players.

Noobs join Pyro with Backburner on a PUG and expect to excel. Then they come the forums telling everyone how UP the Pyro is. (Not dissing the Pyro here, just as an example. Natasha Heavies are also a good example).

[sedde]

Gratz on being featured in the blog Waar!
It's a great guide :)

[Shroomguy]

I just have a question about the six man system.

Now when I'm playing with my buddies (6v6-9v9 around there) we usually do at least two scouts, one medic, one soldier. As for the other soldier and the demo, it's usually a heavy (Which I find to be very effective with a pocket medic, but we all know that) and an option class that is either a spy/engie/pyro.

Now the six class system is cool and all, and I know using ONLEH DUS CLASSES isn't set in stone, but honestly a good ol' Heavy (As UP as some of you say) can often push pretty well.

Now the last class is the most varied, he is that one odd guy who sort a supports in general. It CAN be a soldier, but there's a good chance it won't be. What would be the best option besides another soldier? Pyro makes for some good defense if he is using the CB, but an engie would generally be better for that.

So TLDR, what's another good option besides the other Soldier for competitive play?

[dragazarth]

Great guide and all but problem is how about the people in Australia / New Zealand?
Does any one know where you could find comps/other clans to scrim against in Aus?
Bad thing about Aus is there aren't that many comp of privately hosted servers around. there are very few non steam maps on servers. The Austrlian gaming community is not very big nor, the only comps and stuff are LAN parties which are all well and good unless they are somewhere miles away.:mad:
There are only really ISP servers and other game things, but no leagues that arn't LAN parties :eek: :(
Any body know a place that lists clans that want to scrim, leagues or comps around down under?

Thanks
----
Dont you think this guy is cute? :D

Ps: are there any arena comps, or just best player in a server comp things?

[Barncow]

I just have a question about the six man system.

Now when I'm playing with my buddies (6v6-9v9 around there) we usually do at least two scouts, one medic, one soldier. As for the other soldier and the demo, it's usually a heavy (Which I find to be very effective with a pocket medic, but we all know that) and an option class that is either a spy/engie/pyro.

Now the six class system is cool and all, and I know using ONLEH DUS CLASSES isn't set in stone, but honestly a good ol' Heavy (As UP as some of you say) can often push pretty well.

Now the last class is the most varied, he is that one odd guy who sort a supports in general. It CAN be a soldier, but there's a good chance it won't be. What would be the best option besides another soldier? Pyro makes for some good defense if he is using the CB, but an engie would generally be better for that.

So TLDR, what's another good option besides the other Soldier for competitive play?

Heavy can replace a soldier if need be, the Euros at least used to (dunno if they still do) do it all the time. However, you will be down a man at the mid fight, which hurts a lot, until the heavy gets there, which is usually about the time the mid fight ends almost. Generally, whenever a heavy comes about the other team's soldiers and demos usually call it out and spam the guy to hell, which is usually why he isn't used. It may work when playing with your buddies (not sure of your experience levels) but probably won't work well on more experienced players.

Its been said that having the best offense is the best defense, and for 6v6 this is true. Having a pyro or engineer defending, at least on push maps, is only going to put you a man down, and with such few players as it is, you cannot afford that.

Its good that you are experimenting, but you will find out the cookie-cutter setup is the best for getting the job done.

As for Australia comp play, try ozfortress.com . Not sure what else to say, I'm not familiar with it.

[ChimpFeet]

I just have a question about the six man system.

Now when I'm playing with my buddies (6v6-9v9 around there) we usually do at least two scouts, one medic, one soldier. As for the other soldier and the demo, it's usually a heavy (Which I find to be very effective with a pocket medic, but we all know that) and an option class that is either a spy/engie/pyro.

Now the six class system is cool and all, and I know using ONLEH DUS CLASSES isn't set in stone, but honestly a good ol' Heavy (As UP as some of you say) can often push pretty well.

Now the last class is the most varied, he is that one odd guy who sort a supports in general. It CAN be a soldier, but there's a good chance it won't be. What would be the best option besides another soldier? Pyro makes for some good defense if he is using the CB, but an engie would generally be better for that.

So TLDR, what's another good option besides the other Soldier for competitive play?

Some maps you will see teams use a sniper instead of a second soldier.

[C.Dranzer]

2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, Demoman, Medic

So this is how a game dies.

I think I understand now.

[TheDL]

So this is how a game dies.

I think I understand now.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=926951

So this is what players do after dying to bad demos.

I think I understand now.

[The DooD]

Can I ask why ctf maps are never used in matches? I would've thought a map like 2fort would be fairly popular.

So this is how a game dies.

I think I understand now.

What chu talkin' bout Willis?

[Barncow]

Turbine is popular in Europe. 2Fort is nothing but spawncamp spawncamp cap intel spawncamp spawncamp cap intel and so on.

[waebi]

Turbine is popular in Europe.

dunno why people keep saying that. It sucks ♥♥♥ and isnt played that often either.

[breakd0wn]

dunno why people keep saying that. It sucks ♥♥♥ and isnt played that often either.

NO U

Turbine is played rather a lot, it's a fun map. Not as big as granary or badlands obviously.

Problem with 2fort and ctf_well is that they are rather big and complex (at least compared to turbine) which makes it hard to go on offence and defend at the same time, so those maps suffer from the "hydro syndrome" where the whole thing usually stalemates. In turbine you can switch from offence to defence in a matter of seconds, so the whole map is a lot more dynamic and fun to play.

[Spyglass]

okay, so I think im a good tf2 player
so I goto GotFrag.com, post on their forums, this is what occurs
http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/405487/
nice...

[element13]

okay, so I think im a good tf2 player
so I goto GotFrag.com, post on their forums, this is what occurs
http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/405487/
nice...

That's why you don't go to a place like gotfrag to find a team. Use IRC, I'm sure you can find some people to play with on there. I don't know what the channel is though... #tf2scrim ?

[Barncow]

okay, so I think im a good tf2 player
so I goto GotFrag.com, post on their forums, this is what occurs
http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/405487/
nice...

See the thing about gotfrag is that its the 4 chan of tf2. All looking threads get trolled, however, the thing is do NOT respond to them. Anyone interested will find you through steam.

edit: why is 4 chan (no spaces) blocked???

[Spoony J]

okay, so I think im a good tf2 player
so I goto GotFrag.com, post on their forums, this is what occurs
http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/405487/
nice...

You have no experience in comp play and nobody can vouch for you, that's why that happened. It's stupid and immature, but that's gotfrag. Gather some and maybe people will recognize you. Play in a couple PUGs or ring for a friend's team. Otherwise, form a team with your friends and try and go from there.

[breakd0wn]

okay, so I think im a good tf2 player
so I goto GotFrag.com, post on their forums, this is what occurs
http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/405487/
nice...

Ouch.

Gotfrag is just full of trolls and there's very rarely any administrators on so don't take it too seriously.

[Sandvich]

Featured on Blog, woot!

[Kuiper]

okay, so I think im a good tf2 player
so I goto GotFrag.com, post on their forums, this is what occurs
http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/405487/
nice...
You posted in the recruiting forum and basically said nothing other than (I quote), "good medic, descent everything else." You don't tell people how much experience you have or what to expect from you or how often you'd be free to play/scrimmage. You don't tell people what leagues you're interested or whether you're even interested in any leagues. Perhaps you might want to write a more informative post before you get mad at people. In particular, I recommend that you follow the advice in this thread (http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/402501/), which was created specifically for people like you who don't write informative posts and get frustrated when people don't respond seriously to their topic.

Here's a good example of how to write a post:
Hi, I'm username. Apart from a few pugs on #tf2.gather.us, I have no 6v6 experience. I recently read waar's "beginniner's guide" and I'm interested in joining a team so that I can get practice scrimming on a regular basis and maybe try CEVO-F or TWL next season. I'm looking for a team that scrims maybe two or three times a week. I'm in the EST time zone and I'm usually free on weekdays late afternoon or evening, my weekends are mostly free as well. I do have experience coming from TF2F's nocrit pub so my deathmatch skills are moderately good, I just don't have very much situational awareness as I've learned in the few pugs I've played. I'm willing to play any class and I'm pretty good at both soldier and demoman, but I'm more interested in improving my skills as a soldier.
Here's an example of how NOT to write a post for the recruiting forum on gotfrag:
not jack off.... sigh I dont know what to say, other than that I would like to play more competitive play. I'm EST
good medic, descent everything else.
Additionally, I'd like to note that although the OP was really bad to start with (and thus you can't really complain about it turning out to be a crappy thread), you still got some legitimately helpful replies, like #70 and #71:
Join #tf2.pug.na and #tf2scrim. Play in pugs, ring for teams, get to know people. Start a team or join a team with somebody you get along with. Find some late night pug groups who play consistently, there are some of varying skill levels. TF2F has a relatively low-skill one that might work for you: www.teamfortress2fort.com
If you create a good marketing post (one that describes your experience, skill level, goals, and the amount of time you are willing to commit), then you have a right to complain about getting dumb replies, but if I were you I'd be grateful for the fact that there at least a few genuinely helpful posts even though you put almost no effort into writing your OP. While you're counting your blessings, you might actually want to consider that the people here, for whatever reason, actually decided to express sympathy for you.

Here's another bit of advice that I was a bit reluctant to include because people will undoubtedly call me a grammar [color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color] for it (even though it's completely unrelated to the subject of grammar): Try using your shift key once in awhile. It goes a long way toward making your posts look more better and it requires little to no added effort.

[Azrael1911]

the only option left is to reverse troll gotfrag!

I'M ON A BOAT!!!!!
TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT THE MOTHER****ING BOAT!!!!!

yeah
:P

[Shroomguy]

Heavy can replace a soldier if need be, the Euros at least used to (dunno if they still do) do it all the time. However, you will be down a man at the mid fight, which hurts a lot, until the heavy gets there, which is usually about the time the mid fight ends almost. Generally, whenever a heavy comes about the other team's soldiers and demos usually call it out and spam the guy to hell, which is usually why he isn't used. It may work when playing with your buddies (not sure of your experience levels) but probably won't work well on more experienced players.

Its been said that having the best offense is the best defense, and for 6v6 this is true. Having a pyro or engineer defending, at least on push maps, is only going to put you a man down, and with such few players as it is, you cannot afford that.

Its good that you are experimenting, but you will find out the cookie-cutter setup is the best for getting the job done.

As for Australia comp play, try ozfortress.com . Not sure what else to say, I'm not familiar with it.

We all have been playing for a pretty long time, and we have plenty of good experience under our belts. We usually end up on top with most Pubs, and when we destroy each other for hours...

The score switches around a LOT. Though I don't think that'd (Most of us) would get TOO serious if we went full time PuGin'. (Our clan tags vary from IMGA(Y!), to IMFA(T!), and even (IMJA(P!) ) But I know a few dudes (Myself somewhat included) who are super excited about this whole balance thing.

I figured heavy would be the first choice, but I still find myself going Pyro instead of that other Soldier on occasion. (Always ask the team first though)

I guess most of us just want 6v6 to get a little more style. You know, see all the classes around doing there thing. I might get more serious now though, I've been playing Soldier recently. Easy to learn, hard to master class. Thanks though, this thread has given me a better grasp on 6v6...

Hopefully the Soldier update doesn't change stuff too much (For Pubs and Pugs alike)

[acidcj]

Congratulations on making it to the official TF2 blog. I agree, this is very well written.

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2711

[delirium-]

That's why you don't go to a place like gotfrag to find a team.

You can find a team on GotFrag just fine ... I've seen lots of good recruiting posts. Here's an example:

Currently playing CEVO and UGC for team ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but looking to play in ESEA as well. Unsure how to rate myself as a medic but I don't make many mistakes and have decent comms. Don't mind losing as long as people on the team are doing what they're supposed to and we're improving/understanding what we need to do to improve.

I'd like to help support ESEA since UGC seems to be going downhill and I'm not currently playing TWL.

I am willing to ride the bench if it means helping a team through this season without forfeit losses and can also backup as scout, although I have less experience as scout in matches.

Still not perfect -- he doesn't list past experience, only current -- but me makes his class preference clear (Med and backup Scout), his goals clear (growing w/ ESEA team), and you get a fair sense of his skill level (low/mid).

You also can't judge a recruiting thread by its responses, any significant dialogue is going to take place via PM/Steam/IRC.

[Masturmind]

I always voicechat with my friends via Steam, don't see why I should use other programs, can someone explane please :)

[garrysmodfan]

THUMBS UP!!!

[J8HX]

I always voicechat with my friends via Steam, don't see why I should use other programs, can someone explane please :)

LAG.

basically.

[Kuiper]

I always voicechat with my friends via Steam, don't see why I should use other programs, can someone explane please :)
In-game chat doesn't allow dead teammates to communicate. The voice chat included with the Steam client is pretty bad in terms of quality and I suspect that dedicated VoIP programs give you significantly better latency. Steam voice chat also lacks a lot of feature like the ability to selectively broadcast based on volume or signal/noise ratio. Quite simply, Steam was not optimized for voice communication, Ventrilo and Mumble are. They're also useful for pickup games since all of the channels for different games can take place on the same vent server, which is easier than having two separate steam chats for each game. Also, #tf2.gather.us keeps all of the server IPs listed in the vent channel comments, so it's nice for enabling people to get the IPs for the tf2 servers where the games are actually played.

[abcxyq]

This thread should be stickied since it was on the blog.

[brownymaster]

It's been stickied since the week it was written...

[Samurai Cinn]

theres no such thing as competitive tf2, valve only caters to pub play

orly?? Ever look at www.tf2.com ? I hear that they mention it SOMEWHERE in the new blog post.

[DarK_cS]

I don't mean to be a flamer, but to me 6v6 competitive play sounds incredibly boring.

Highlander doesn't though.

You say that because you'd never win a game of competitive TF2. And the drive to do so is 50x more rewarding than anything else.

[wolfvision]

good guide