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GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 03:52 AM
I'm not sure if this has been suggested before or not, but here goes.

I'm sure that those who are currently VAC banned can safely say that if they were given a second chance they would never hack again. Well instead of an instant VAC perma-ban how about a system of.

1st Offense: 1 year ban
2nd Offense: Permanent ban

Sound fair? Because personally I don't really see justice in an instant BLAM perma-ban. I'm not banned myself but I know a few people that have been. e.g. Their account was hijacked and the user hijacking them used their account for cheating.

Because not everybody is smart enough to be cautious enough so that they won't be banned.

There can be examples of this kind of punishment everywhere. In law, if you commit a crime you're not locked away forever (depending on the severity of course). But cheating isn't murder.

In school if you act innapropriately you're not instantly excluded are you?

At the end of the day it's a game, it costs money. Especially if you have a game like Team Fortress 2. And being permanently banned rather enables that game and that money you paid for it to be lost.

Those that cheat on a regular basis deserve to be banned, but those that do it once just to "see what it's all about" can have a taste of what kind of severe punishment they are going to have if they continue. I don't really see a reason why this kind of system shouldn't be put in place. It still serves the purpose of repelling cheaters, but it gets the true cheaters permanently out of the game, and those that inadvertently or don't know what they're getting themselves into a severe warning.

Thank you for reading.

-General Trivium

Edit: Please read the whole thread before posting.

Sierra Oscar
05-10-2009, 03:58 AM
Im not so sure - if you cheat you have to be prepared to pay the consequences.

Cheaters can still play on non - VAC secure servers. If they are interested in cheating, why are they interested in playing on VAC servers? Just to be the only ones cheating, and thus annihilate everyone else?

Thats not much fun for anyone else.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 04:03 AM
I'm talking of mods such as Empires as well etc. that only run on VAC servers.

Do those who's accounts have been hijacked be the ones to pay?

popovichh
05-10-2009, 04:04 AM
Technically, those would be 5 second chances :eek:

While I can relate to the concept of second chance, giving 5 chances to damn cheaters would completely ruin the community.
Totally.

Even 1 chance of lifting ban for those who got their account VACed by having their account hacked would lead to too much abuse and way to much "Can I get another chance, it wasn't me, it was my brother" threads.

So permanent bans are only thing that stops abusers and freakin' cheaters from ruining our games repeatedly.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 04:06 AM
Yes, but the bans get more and more and more until it becomes permanent.

No more chances, it's endgame for them.

They continued cheating and they paid the price, end of.

Sierra Oscar
05-10-2009, 04:08 AM
Yes, but the bans get more and more and more until it becomes permanent.

No more chances, it's endgame for them.

They continued cheating and they paid the price, end of.

Many cheaters seem to end up just buying games over and over again anyway, as it is at the moment.

I am sure that trend would continue - except now they have five more chances each time.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 04:11 AM
Many cheaters seem to end up just buying games over and over again anyway, as it is at the moment.

I am sure that trend would continue - except now they have five more chances each time.

Yes, but the main reason I am trying to get across here is that why should the victims be the ones to pay? It's entirely unjust to punish those who have been hijacked or have downloaded something that contains cheats that can be detected by VAC that they are not aware of.

Perhaps the chances can be narrowed down to just 2 or 3 instead of 5. It's the idea that counts.

Plasma
05-10-2009, 04:12 AM
I think the system is fine as it is.

You know you're not supposed to cheat, and you're warned every time you join a VAC secured server.

If you cheat and get caught, goodo.

Sierra Oscar
05-10-2009, 04:14 AM
Yes, but the main reason I am trying to get across here is that why should the victims be the ones to pay? It's entirely unjust to punish those who have been hijacked or have downloaded something that contains cheats that can be detected by VAC that they are not aware of.

Perhaps the chances can be narrowed down to just 2 or 3 instead of 5. It's the idea that counts.

Ah, well that is something different - the problem there is you could easily have people cheating, and then just claiming their account was hijacked.

I would agree that it is unfair but at the end of the day, a line has to be drawn somewhere - and account security is the end users responsibility.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 04:16 AM
Yes but those who steal accounts don't care about that account for it's not theirs. I'm sure there are ways of gaining account information without having someone type it into a fake website. I mean I was hijacked once and I can assure you I didn't give anything my password except the Steam interface itself.

I'm just lucky the person that did didn't use the account for hacking otherwise I would of been, as the thread says. "Pissed off"

But there has to be a way to repel cheaters and at the same time not punish victims wrongly.

And they wouldn't have to claim to anybody their account was hijacked they have chances, i'm sure they will be able to get their account back before those chances are up. And at the end of the day they will only be banned temporarily.

Plasma
05-10-2009, 04:21 AM
GeneralT: That's a bit different to what sounded like your initial argument.

If you cheat on your own account and are VAC banned, it should remain as-is and you should be banned forever, the first time you are caught.

If you have your account hijacked (which is most of the time the victim wilfully handing over their account details to a thief!) then I agree its unfair that they are further punushed due to their stupidity/lapse of judgement.

But you're thinking about it from the wrong angle.

Instead of applying band-aid fixes to what happens AFTER an account is taken (and cheated with), the techniques used to hijack accounts in the first place should be addressed instead to remove this as a possibility.

It's disappointing to see people say they have been scammed, hijacked, etc on these forums, even with the numerous warnings posted on the software.

There are several appropriate and appropriate suggestions mentioned within these forums on how Valve could really deal with this issue once and for all.

Personally I'd love to see them do something about it that eradicated the problem, because I'd hate to have my customer's accounts being stolen from under them - even if it was due to them falling for social engineering.

I use the term social engineering loosely, because those who actually do the scamming are hilariously pitiful and dumb.

ernest.
05-10-2009, 04:22 AM
Yes, but the main reason I am trying to get across here is that why should the victims be the ones to pay? It's entirely unjust to punish those who have been hijacked or have downloaded something that contains cheats that can be detected by VAC that they are not aware of.

I disagree. If you can't keep your own computer secure, having your Steam account stolen should be the least of your worries.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 04:28 AM
I'm trying to think of 1 way to solve 2 problems here.

1. Cheaters that purposely cheat.

2. Those who are banned due to someone else cheating or due to a mistake.

Temporary bans can repel cheaters that purposely cheat by eventually permanently banning them, and yet at the same time not punish those who don't deserve to be punished so severely.

As said before, if they can just re-buy their games and start cheating again anyway, why bother having VAC?

"To repel that cheaters currently and to stop anarchy"

So if you have VAC even though people can just re-buy their games, which is a flaw. Then why not use the temporary bans system? Which also has it's flaws but it solves the problem of people getting permanently banned unjustly.

Plasma
05-10-2009, 04:28 AM
and account security is the end users responsibility.

I agree, to an extent. Valve have the ability to do so much more to (in my opinion) pretty much eliminate this problem all together using a few techniques mentioned within these forums.

While I don't want to re-hash previous debates in this thread and take it a bit OT, briefly something along the lines of these changes should suffice:

* Assume each computer in the world has its own unique, 'magic key code' that uniquely identifies it (this is easily possible, or the Steam client can generate one itself to identify the computer it is installed on)

* For every second you are logged in to your Steam account from your computer (identified by its magic key), your PC earns 'reputation' points for being the true and legitimate owner of that Steam account from the view of the Steam servers

* Over time, your computer's reputation, as the legitimate account holder grows

For a scammer to hijack your account, they need to change your password.

Now imagine the password change process not only required your initial username and password, but would also only work fromn the computer with the most 'reptutation' points as being the owner.

Now the scammer cannot change your account password, he would have zero reputation points! Possibly compared to weeks/months/years of your computer's reptiation points as being the account owner.

While the algorithm could be extended a bit more (for example, ignore a computer as the main account owner if their last login date was several months ago), in general it sounds pretty solid on several fronts:

* Users dont need to do anything for this to work, other than just use Steam like they already do
* Scammers now have no benefit in trying to steal your account. They can't hijack it because they can never change your account password, even when you give it to them!
* The technique is not tied to personal payment information being given in order to change your password (which is something scammers would just ask for instead)

If scammers are no longer able to steal accounts, they won't bother phishing in the first place.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 04:39 AM
I agree, to an extent. Valve have the ability to do so much more to (in my opinion) pretty much eliminate this problem all together using a few techniques mentioned within these forums.

While I don't want to re-hash previous debates in this thread and take it a bit OT, briefly something along the lines of these changes should suffice:

* Assume each computer in the world has its own unique, 'magic key code' that uniquely identifies it (this is easily possible, or the Steam client can generate one itself to identify the computer it is installed on)

* For every second you are logged in to your Steam account from your computer (identified by its magic key), your PC earns 'reputation' points for being the true and legitimate owner of that Steam account from the view of the Steam servers

* Over time, your computer's reputation, as the legitimate account holder grows

For a scammer to hijack your account, they need to change your password.

Now imagine the password change process not only required your initial username and password, but would also only work fromn the computer with the most 'reptutation' points as being the owner.

Now the scammer cannot change your account password, he would have zero reputation points! Possibly compared to weeks/months/years of your computer's reptiation points as being the account owner.

While the algorithm could be extended a bit more (for example, ignore a computer as the main account owner if their last login date was several months ago), in general it sounds pretty solid on several fronts:

* Users dont need to do anything for this to work, other than just use Steam like they already do
* Scammers now have no benefit in trying to steal your account. They can't hijack it because they can never change your account password, even when you give it to them!
* The technique is not tied to personal payment information being given in order to change your password (which is something scammers would just ask for instead)

If scammers are no longer able to steal accounts, they won't bother phishing in the first place.

What if your computer broke and you were changing to a different one? You wouldn't be able to log into your account because your new computer wouldn't have any "reputation points" unless i'm misunderstanding your concept a bit.

However, if the whole idea of hijacking accounts is impossible then this will eliminate the threat of people being permanently banned unjustly.

Back onto the subject of those that cheat without being hijacked.

Some people are just young and stupid and use cheats to see what it is like, and then get banned because they're a little too dumb to know what they are getting themselves into, all they need really is a slap on the wrist, not a full blown permanent ban.

Do you agree?

popovichh
05-10-2009, 04:41 AM
* Assume each computer in the world has its own unique, 'magic key code' that uniquely identifies it (this is easily possible, or the Steam client can generate one itself to identify the computer it is installed on)

* For every second you are logged in to your Steam account from your computer (identified by its magic key), your PC earns 'reputation' points for being the true and legitimate owner of that Steam account from the view of the Steam servers

* Over time, your computer's reputation, as the legitimate account holder grows

For a scammer to hijack your account, they need to change your password.

Now imagine the password change process not only required your initial username and password, but would also only work fromn the computer with the most 'reptutation' points as being the owner.

Now the scammer cannot change your account password, he would have zero reputation points! Possibly compared to weeks/months/years of your computer's reptiation points as being the account owner.

While the algorithm could be extended a bit more (for example, ignore a computer as the main account owner if their last login date was several months ago), in general it sounds pretty solid on several fronts:

* Users dont need to do anything for this to work, other than just use Steam like they already do
* Scammers now have no benefit in trying to steal your account. They can't hijack it because they can never change your account password, even when you give it to them!
* The technique is not tied to personal payment information being given in order to change your password (which is something scammers would just ask for instead)

If scammers are no longer able to steal accounts, they won't bother phishing in the first place.
That defeats the purpose of Steam as a platform for playing your games anywhere, anytime, and using current computer for everything you need, including managing your account personal informations.
What if you change your PC? Or hardware on which magic code is based? You could not change your info at all by yourself, the owner.
Besides, why complicate the issue with so many features like reputation and magic keys when you can have a much simpler solutions within Steam itself and perfectly attainable.
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=856275

kakkerlak
05-10-2009, 04:42 AM
I add new hardware all the time.
changed my motherboard and processor two times the past 3 months.

if an account was used to cheat on us the community the ban is fair hijacked or not.

Plasma
05-10-2009, 04:42 AM
What if your computer broke and you were changing to a different one? You wouldn't be able to log into your account because your new computer wouldn't have any "reputation points" unless i'm misunderstanding your concept a bit.
You can always login to your account from any computer (regardless of what points you have), the restriction is just applied to changing your password.

In case your computer does break and you need a new one, you can just begin building reputation again on your new computer, and after (say) a few months, your old computer's points are reset to zero because you haven't logged in from that computer in a while.

In the extreme case, a customer could always contact support and supply receipt information etc in order to change their password if they get a new computer and suddenly need to change their password.


Some people are just young and stupid and use cheats to see what it is like, and then get banned because they're a little too dumb to know what they are getting themselves into, all they need really is a slap on the wrist, not a full blown permanent ban.

Do you agree?
Personally, no I don't agree :)

Otherwise I'm afraid general game play by legit players will just encounter cheaters more frequently.

Plasma
05-10-2009, 04:44 AM
Also when I say "magic key" I mean Steam could generate one, just once, for your Steam install. It would NOT be based on your hardware or any upgrade you do, so hardware changes would not matter. Then every time you use that computer, it sends the same key code it generated in the first place.

Again, this is supposed to be unobtrusive, and not affect any other part of Steam.

popovichh
05-10-2009, 04:47 AM
I add new hardware all the time.
changed my motherboard and processor two times the past 3 months.

if an account was used to cheat on us the community the ban is fair hijacked or not.
Thanks for your comment, it does work in my favor :) but it is still beside the point-cheaters should not be forgiven and VAC bans temporary out of 1 simple reason: Cheaters will always cheat and later abuse the system.

I'm not on these forums for a long time, but even during this time I've seen many topics on VAC forum made by cheaters swearing that they are wrongfully banned, when instead a user would google a bit and find the same banned user promoting hacks on Youtube.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 04:55 AM
Thanks for your comment, it does work in my favor :) but it is still beside the point-cheaters should not be forgiven and VAC bans temporary out of 1 simple reason: Cheaters will always cheat and later abuse the system.

I'm not on these forums for a long time, but even during this time I've seen many topics on VAC forum made by cheaters swearing that they are wrongfully banned, when instead a user would google a bit and find the same banned user promoting hacks on Youtube.

Then you just ignore those people, they know the rules and they didn't abide by them.

It's the same system as before, no excuses etc. But instead of an instant permanent ban, it's an array of bans that get higher in time until it becomes permanent. Surely that would repel cheaters? And also if there is a way to make hijacking accounts impossible then cheaters wouldn't dare try cheating because they know they won't be able to play on VAC servers ever again seeming as they can't hijack someone's account and use theirs.

popovichh
05-10-2009, 05:06 AM
Then you just ignore those people.

It's the same system as before, no excuses etc. But instead of an instant permanent ban, it's an array of bans that get higher in time until it becomes permanent. Surely that would repel cheaters? And also if there is a way to make hijacking accounts impossible then cheaters wouldn't dare try cheating because they know they won't be able to play on VAC servers ever again seeming as they can't hijack someone's account and use theirs.
I do understand your point, believe me, I do. ;)
But trust me when I say, cheaters are not repelled by anything other than permanent ban.
As for hijacked accounts, I guess that's a hole in the design. Innocent people sometimes pay the piper, yes. I suppose that's the price of having secure servers and quality gaming without cheaters.
There's nothing other than that, that would make cheaters suddenly walk the path of righteous man and never cheat again.
Again, trust me on this one-once a cheater, always a cheater.

kakkerlak
05-10-2009, 05:07 AM
it is good to brainstorm about a system now and than.
to me the suggestions in this thread are just another way to shift personal responsibility to another party.

I like it the way it is now.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 05:08 AM
I'm not saying cheaters won't get permanently banned.

They will, because they will continue cheating even with the 1 week to 1 year bans, but after the 1 year ban they will be permanently banned.

Just like it is now.

Jigoku
05-10-2009, 05:10 AM
Please use more descriptive thread titles in the future ...

There are reasons bans are both delayed and permanent. I can't see it changing any time soon.

popovichh
05-10-2009, 05:15 AM
I'm not saying cheaters won't get permanently banned.

They will, because they will continue cheating even with the 1 week to 1 year bans, but after the 1 year ban they will be permanently banned.

Just like it is now.
Hehe well that's my point.
I don't want to see millions of users cheating 5 times (or even 3 times)before they get permanently banned.
And since only 1 cheater is enough to ruin a single game (or as many games as it can until it's banned) almost every game from now till..forever would be ♥♥♥♥ed up.
And after they can just buy another CS for 9$ and again start cheating into oblivion.
No, I'm sorry, but it's not going to happen. ;)

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 05:16 AM
Please use more descriptive thread titles in the future ...

There are reasons bans are both delayed and permanent. I can't see it changing any time soon.

Sorry :S

Doesn't punk buster use the same kind of system that I suggested?

If it works for them why not for VAC?

Hehe well that's my point.
I don't want to see millions of users cheating 5 times (or even 3 times)before they get permanently banned.
And since only 1 cheater is enough to ruin a single game (or as many games as it can until it's banned) almost every game from now till..forever would be ♥♥♥♥ed up.
And after they can just buy another CS for 9$ and again start cheating into oblivion.
No, I'm sorry, but it's not going to happen. ;)

You're giving me the impression that you're thinking they're simply kicked from the server other than banned for an amount of time. If what you're saying does happen, then there would be large gaps in between their hacking that get larger until it's permanent.

And even with the current system they can still buy CS for 9$ and start hacking again, so I don't see what the problem is, with your reason anyway.

kakkerlak
05-10-2009, 05:16 AM
you know what damage a blatand cheater can do in 5 minutes on a server sombody is paying for?
server rent for 32 slots cost between 20 to 70 euro.
thats why to me perma baning is the only option.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 05:25 AM
you know what damage a blatand cheater can do in 5 minutes on a server sombody is paying for?
server rent for 32 slots cost between 20 to 70 euro.
thats why to me perma baning is the only option.

Perhaps bans shouldn't be delayed then? So they don't have enough time to damage your server.

ReBoot
05-10-2009, 05:28 AM
The suggestion isn't that bad. It's not like every VAC ban is a real cheater.
1st offence: 1 year ban
2nd offence: Lifetime ban
Sounds pretty fair.

kakkerlak
05-10-2009, 05:29 AM
yes perhaps they should not be banning delayed but vac alone does not make a good server.

at the end of the day VAC is a server tool for server owners.
ask them how they like it because that is the only thing that matters.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 05:34 AM
The suggestion isn't that bad. It's not like every VAC ban is a real cheater.
1st offence: 1 year ban
2nd offence: Lifetime ban
Sounds pretty fair.

Perhaps a month ban first, THEN a year ban?

popovichh
05-10-2009, 05:39 AM
Perhaps a month ban first, THEN a year ban?
Nah, if it was to happen, I too would recommend minimum of 1 year ban for first offense, and permanent for second offense.
Maybe that would even be feasible at some point. Maybe not.
Who knows...

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 05:39 AM
Nah, if it was to happen, I too would recommend minimum of 1 year ban for first offense, and permanent for second offense.
Maybe that would even be feasible at some point. Maybe not.
Who knows...

Actually now I think about it perhaps a year ban for the first offense then permanent would suffice.

popovichh
05-10-2009, 05:43 AM
Actually now I think about it perhaps a year ban for the first offense then permanent would suffice.
Now you only have to persuade Gabe to do it. ;)

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 05:46 AM
Now you only have to persuade Gabe to do it. ;)

If he actually replied to this that would be awesome.

If it could change the title i'd change it to "Temp VAC Bans?" But I can't appear to change it :/

ernest.
05-10-2009, 05:55 AM
If you get one warning, then cheating would be awful. If everyone just cheated one time, that's millions more cheaters. Even if they just do it once. They would use that opportunity to cheat for their two weeks or however long the delay was on the ban.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 06:03 AM
If you get one warning, then cheating would be awful. If everyone just cheated one time, that's millions more cheaters. Even if they just do it once. They would use that opportunity to cheat for their two weeks or however long the delay was on the ban.

I don't think I quite get the point you are trying to make.

cryptodan
05-10-2009, 06:05 AM
I don't think I quite get the point you are trying to make.

He is stating that people would cheat at will and receive the warning then quit.

popovichh
05-10-2009, 06:12 AM
He is stating that people would cheat at will and receive the warning then quit.
lol you can't just "quit" cheating...you'd get a 1 year ban for that little escapade stunt you'd pull off.
Is 2 or however many weeks worth an entire year of being banned?
I don't think so, not even for a "trial" run. :)

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 06:13 AM
He is stating that people would cheat at will and receive the warning then quit.

They don't receive a warning, they receive a 1 year ban.

Then permabanned if they do it again.

Matt
05-10-2009, 07:55 AM
I'm not going to sugar coat my response... This idea sucks.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 07:59 AM
I'm not going to sugar coat my response... This idea sucks.

Mind telling me why you think this idea sucks?

You never know I may have a counter-argument.

Matt
05-10-2009, 08:08 AM
Mind telling me why you think this idea sucks?

It's already been said. Cheaters do not deserve a second chance. In fact, my recommendation has been a complete VAC ban across ALL games--not this engine specific wimpy stuff as is right now.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 08:12 AM
It's already been said. Cheaters do not deserve a second chance. In fact, my recommendation has been a complete VAC ban across ALL games--not this engine specific wimpy stuff as is right now.

The thing is, it's not just the cheaters we're giving a second chance it's those that have been a victim to phishing etc.

You can't just forget about your loyal fans, slap them in the face and say. "You should have been more careful."

Everybody makes mistakes, and I believe that 1 year for a first offense, and then a permanent one for the second is a perfect way to deal with the deliberate cheaters and the hijacking victims.

DarthPsymon
05-10-2009, 10:26 AM
I prefer a zero tolerance on cheating.
Account was hijacked? User shouldn't've given out details.
'My brother/friend did it'? Get him to buy all the games back.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 11:33 AM
I didn't give out my details and I was hijacked.

People can make mistakes.

Surely there's no harm in putting in ONE temporary 1 year ban for a first offense.

l4dr0cks123
05-10-2009, 11:45 AM
I kinda like this suggestion. Maybe something better would be
1st offence: 1 month ban
2nd offence: 3 months ban
3rd offence: normal VAC ban
But seriously, VAC is a bit unfair for those who got their account hijacked and banned. Anyone agrees?

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 11:47 AM
That is what this whole thread is about, please read the whole of it. I've already played around with the idea of 2/3 temporary bans.

But it appears that the most agreed idea is 1st offense 1 year ban, 2nd perma.

Seth.Sekhmet
05-10-2009, 12:32 PM
I don't want temporary bans.
If a cheat is detected on your account, a permanent ban should follow !

There are too many cheaters ruining the game experience for the regular users, they have no fault to have to put up with a cheater more than once.

DON'T CHEAT ! Show 0 tolerance to cheaters and cheat-developers !

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 12:38 PM
I don't want temporary bans.
If a cheat is detected on your account, a permanent ban should follow !

There are too many cheaters ruining the game experience for the regular users, they have no fault to have to put up with a cheater more than once.

DON'T CHEAT ! Show 0 tolerance to cheaters and cheat-developers !

*facepalm*

I'm getting rather tired of repeating myself.

How about for those for who it is not their fault they are banned? They were hijacked or they downloaded something that contained code that could be detected as a cheat and they didn't know.

THEY are the ones that should be given a second chance.

A 1 year 1st offence ban should suffice for repelling cheaters from VAC servers AND stops those who've had their account hijacked from becomig banned unjustly.

I don't think you'd be saying what you are saying now if you were in the same situation.

Plasma
05-10-2009, 04:11 PM
General, you're original post's point, and the point you've been arguing in replies, are different.

In your OP you are arguing cheaters (eg, those who cheat from their own account) should be given more chances to come clean - Myself and others in this thread completely disagree.

But what you are really arguing for, which you did not make clear in your OP (hence the constant 'confusion'), is that you want to provide a way for those who get their account hijacked to have their VAC ban expire so that the ban is not permanent.

Those are two separate problems, and this topic has them confused because the OP is not clear.

In response to that particular issue (expiring VAC bans for scammed accounts), I think its the wrong way to deal with it anyway - Either Valve should take a stance and recognize the account was stolen (and remove any VAC ban), or put some more work in to preventing account theft in the first place.

Expiring bans is the wrong solution, in either scenario.

popovichh
05-10-2009, 05:47 PM
GeneralTrivium,
you should edit your original post to include all the conclusions we've made so far so there's no confusion in the future.

GeneralTrivium
05-10-2009, 11:48 PM
General, you're original post's point, and the point you've been arguing in replies, are different.

In your OP you are arguing cheaters (eg, those who cheat from their own account) should be given more chances to come clean - Myself and others in this thread completely disagree.

But what you are really arguing for, which you did not make clear in your OP (hence the constant 'confusion'), is that you want to provide a way for those who get their account hijacked to have their VAC ban expire so that the ban is not permanent.

Those are two separate problems, and this topic has them confused because the OP is not clear.

In response to that particular issue (expiring VAC bans for scammed accounts), I think its the wrong way to deal with it anyway - Either Valve should take a stance and recognize the account was stolen (and remove any VAC ban), or put some more work in to preventing account theft in the first place.

Expiring bans is the wrong solution, in either scenario.

Pehraps i've been leaning on one point more than the other, but here is an example of someone's account who didn't get hijacked, and he cheated.

A few years ago, a friend of mine thought it would be cool to see what cheating was actually like, but he wasn't dumb so he didn't go on a VAC server, he tested it out on a non-VAC secured server, but half-way through the server turned on VAC and he got banned. I now ask him "Do you think if that was only a temporary ban, say, a few months or maybe even a year, would that have put you off cheating again?" of course he said yes. I've known him for quite a while and I know he's not the kind of person to ruin everybody's game. I guess his curiosity just got the better of him.

And the second chance that we would give cheaters isn't a light one. An entire YEAR, 12 months, for them to grow up a little and see what they've done wrong, and then if they do it again after those 12 months it's a perma. To me that sounds fair.

So I am still arguing cheaters should be given ONE chance, and only one. Shouldn't everyone be given a second chance?

>X<
05-11-2009, 12:19 AM
NO.. No second chances.. being vac banned is a fine, the fine is to cost of your account... cheat and get fined. I know people that buy an account everyweek and consistantly join my server for a round or 2 before getting banned. I wish that multiplayer games came without the gift pass, that they also give to themselves for an extra 3 days of cheating.

Banned should be permanent and include your credit card and paypal, not allowing the repurchase of the games that where purchased on them and cheated with.

VAC really should sneak into their houses at night and beat them over the head with a brick.

GeneralTrivium
05-11-2009, 08:32 AM
NO.. No second chances.. being vac banned is a fine, the fine is to cost of your account... cheat and get fined. I know people that buy an account everyweek and consistantly join my server for a round or 2 before getting banned. I wish that multiplayer games came without the gift pass, that they also give to themselves for an extra 3 days of cheating.

Banned should be permanent and include your credit card and paypal, not allowing the repurchase of the games that where purchased on them and cheated with.

VAC really should sneak into their houses at night and beat them over the head with a brick.

That's a little extreme.

Be realistic here.

You're thinking too stereotypically. Yes, some of them ARE like the stereotype but some of them aren't and it's them we should think about too.

xKU5Hx
05-12-2009, 05:50 PM
valve should make cheaters pay like a $20 fee or higher to get un banned everytime they cheat that way valve can make more money and the cheater gets his acc back

popovichh
05-12-2009, 06:31 PM
valve should make cheaters pay like a $20 fee or higher to get un banned everytime they cheat that way valve can make more money and the cheater gets his acc back
Hahaha so you would allow cheating with a price?
That would encourage cheaters to cheat even more!
And later pay a small price for ban lifting.

The way it is now, they lose ability to play on VAC secured servers for all their games that use banned engine.
And we all know that over 95% of all servers are VAC secured.

No, hell no. $20 (or even $50) is way too small price for those cheating pests. :eek:

magicmissile89
05-12-2009, 09:07 PM
VAC bans used to be temporary, but the cheaters just cheated on them again. Your system may help those who have been "Wrongfully banned", but it helps the cheaters too.

If someone really wants to cheat, your system only helps them because after their first offense (The 1 year ban), they'll most likely just get a new account and when the one year ban gets lifted on the first account, they'll just use it to cheat again. Simply put, all this will do is make more cheaters.

I know you think your system helps people who have lost their accounts due to hijakcers. But being reasonable, the only way for a hijacker to get somebody's account is to
- Phish it; STEAM says at the top of every chat window "Never tell your password to anyone!"
- Keylog it; STEAM and almost everyone here will tell you to just leave the games as they are. If you have to download something, stick to a trusted site.
- Guess it; Any idiot knows to put somewhat of a strong password. And to change it every now and then.

The bottom line is that VAC was made because people wanted Valve to do something about the cheaters, that's what it does, and your system may render it less efficient.

GeneralTrivium
05-12-2009, 11:54 PM
VAC bans used to be temporary, but the cheaters just cheated on them again. Your system may help those who have been "Wrongfully banned", but it helps the cheaters too.

If someone really wants to cheat, your system only helps them because after their first offense (The 1 year ban), they'll most likely just get a new account and when the one year ban gets lifted on the first account, they'll just use it to cheat again. Simply put, all this will do is make more cheaters.

I know you think your system helps people who have lost their accounts due to hijakcers. But being reasonable, the only way for a hijacker to get somebody's account is to
- Phish it; STEAM says at the top of every chat window "Never tell your password to anyone!"
- Keylog it; STEAM and almost everyone here will tell you to just leave the games as they are. If you have to download something, stick to a trusted site.
- Guess it; Any idiot knows to put somewhat of a strong password. And to change it every now and then.

The bottom line is that VAC was made because people wanted Valve to do something about the cheaters, that's what it does, and your system may render it less efficient.

If they would just get a new account anyway, you can do that with the current VAC system. Perhaps we should allow only one account per computer? OR you can get an official request to create a new account, and your VAC status etc. will be looked into along with your reason.

And if they cheat again after 1 year they're perma'd, and they won't be able to create a new account because of their VAC status.

But now that's 2 fairly big changes. However, if they were implemented it would work.

pyrodemon915
05-13-2009, 12:56 AM
they just want more money

michael89
05-13-2009, 01:34 AM
I disagree. If you can't keep your own computer secure, having your Steam account stolen should be the least of your worries.

Dude, it's impossible to keep computer 100% secure, even if you have all settings on high.

Lets face few facts, shall we?


There aren't any antivirus / antispyware software, that would regonize ALL viruses / malwares.



- Most of the web-sites contain small / big security holes.
When hackers find them, they will most likely add viruses / malware in them:

Virus will be downloaded to your computer along with temporary internet files, sometimes without any notice.

"Don't visit on infected sites. :D" is honestly bull♥♥♥♥, since you can't know 100% surely, what sites have been infected, until it's too late.



Believe it or not, but also software that has been bought from the store, may contain viruses / malware. (These are rare situations, but they are still quite serious.)

But yeah, scam sites are easy to regonize.

kakkerlak
05-13-2009, 01:45 AM
maybe the pc or its user is not very secure but the steam account is pretty secure.

I did not ask you or anybody to visit a website that can get you hijacked so I can get cheated on.

ReBoot
05-13-2009, 03:18 AM
Hahaha so you would allow cheating with a price?
That would encourage cheaters to cheat even more!Even more than what? Pay 20$ for a new licence of CSS? It's more or less the same. Just raise the fee to maybe 50$ or 100$ to cover more expensive (or just more) games.

GeneralTrivium
05-13-2009, 11:37 AM
Even more than what? Pay 20$ for a new licence of CSS? It's more or less the same. Just raise the fee to maybe 50$ or 100$ to cover more expensive (or just more) games.

Having to pay money, no matter what amount would still technically be supporting cheating. It's like, you can cheat, if you have the right amount of cash.... Capiche?

I'm sticking to the 1 year ban followed by a perma.

ReBoot
05-13-2009, 11:42 AM
Having to pay money, no matter what amount would still technically be supporting cheating. It's like, you can cheat, if you have the right amount of cash.... Capiche?

I'm sticking to the 1 year ban followed by a perma.What you do not see is that you already can pay money to keep on playing (and cheating). Just pay 20$ from time to time to get a fresh licence for CSS or TF2. Sure, some games are more expensive but that's why I suggested having to pay more to unban.

popovichh
05-13-2009, 12:21 PM
What you do not see is that you already can pay money to keep on playing (and cheating). Just pay 20$ from time to time to get a fresh licence for CSS or TF2. Sure, some games are more expensive but that's why I suggested having to pay more to unban.

Yeah, but that would still be unfair to the people who are not cheating.
How would they feel if Valve just lifted all bans for certain price? They would feel betrayed, because not a single ban would ever be permanent, therefore it would serve no purpose to punish users for that kind of behavior.

Cheating is bad, and ruins the experience of gaming.
It kills the whole point of having fun playing games, it kills the competitive spirit and much more.

Have you ever played a game and had a good time when some cheater entered the server and after that you were totally off and just exited the game?
I have. And I hate that.

A line must be drawn somewhere. ;)

ReBoot
05-13-2009, 12:25 PM
How would they feel if Valve just lifted all bans for certain price?Again, all you have to do to keep on playing CSS after gettung busted is pay 20$. This is already in! Don't you see it?

magicmissile89
05-13-2009, 08:50 PM
Cheating is bad, and ruins the experience of gaming.
It kills the whole point of having fun playing games, it kills the competitive spirit and much more.

Have you ever played a game and had a good time when some cheater entered the server and after that you were totally off and just exited the game?
I have. And I hate that.

A line must be drawn somewhere. ;)
Exactly, that's why cheaters don't deserve a second chance. Even if a friend wanted to cheat to "See what it's like" (as stated earlier in this thread) that person is still going on to an online game and ruining it for others. Even he was just seeing what it's like, he's still ruining a game and violating the SSA.

If you get your account hijakced, your fault. You should have protected your account better. And by the way, I have never heard of a virus that corrupts (Instead of destroying) a game's core files to the point that VAC (A system that scans for only KNOWN cheats) would flag it.

>X<
05-13-2009, 11:19 PM
Bottom line, by allowing cheats there account back you are doubling the amount of time they can cheat.

example: average vac time (guessing 5 weeks) means a cheat requires about 10 games a year to continue cheating. cs:s $200 to cheat all you like for a year, cs $100 a year to cheat all you like.

This can be cheaper if they use undetected cheats for sometime.

Do you want to cut this price in half by allowing cheats a second go with each account?

magicmissile89
05-14-2009, 01:26 PM
Bottom line, by allowing cheats there account back you are doubling the amount of time they can cheat.

example: average vac time (guessing 5 weeks) means a cheat requires about 10 games a year to continue cheating. cs:s $200 to cheat all you like for a year, cs $100 a year to cheat all you like.

This can be cheaper if they use undetected cheats for sometime.

Do you want to cut this price in half by allowing cheats a second go with each account?

100% agree. VAC was made for one reason: To keep cheaters off. The one year ban system, as stated, only puts more cheaters on. Even if they get caught again they get permanently banned, it is still another few weeks of ruining great games at the expense of other people.

GeneralTrivium
05-15-2009, 09:28 AM
Very well, you have all failed to see the vision that I have been attempting to get across.

I shall leave you with this.

1) Turn to 1 temporary ban that is of one year before going into permanent.

2) Take off the delay of bans, as soon as somebody joins a server and VAC detects a cheat, they get banned.

This would stop cheaters from getting a chance to cheat again, only a chance to get banned again. They would have to be incredibly dumb not to see that they won't have even 1 frag with their cheats before they are banned.

Thank you, and good day.

cryptodan
05-15-2009, 12:25 PM
2) Take off the delay of bans, as soon as somebody joins a server and VAC detects a cheat, they get banned.


It would allow cheat developers to see what cheats are detected and which cheats are not, something delayed bans prevents.

L.o.D.
05-15-2009, 01:04 PM
1) Turn to 1 temporary ban that is of one year before going into permanent.

They already did that. It failed.
Then they went to 5hear ban length. It failed.
No it's perm with zero tolerance.

2) Take off the delay of bans, as soon as somebody joins a server and VAC detects a cheat, they get banned.

This would stop cheaters from getting a chance to cheat again, only a chance to get banned again. They would have to be incredibly dumb not to see that they won't have even 1 frag with their cheats before they are banned.

But with that, cheat makers would be able to test their cheats before releasing them to the public to see if they need to re-code them to get around VAC.
This would not stop cheaters by any means.

>X<
05-15-2009, 04:30 PM
Making vac instant would mean the first person banned for a cheat could tell the cheat community not to use it, it is detected.

Resulting in less bans for cheats.

1 year bans have been proven not to work.

Ban their payment methods as well is my call. Make it a pain and have to get a new credit card or paypal account every time they cheat.

Ban's should however be able to be lifted on payment of a fine, the fine should refect the number of detections. A fine of $50 per engine comes to mind. The account should however show every fine paid previous ban.

Doing this would allow those that got their accounts hijacked the chance to un vac ban their account. Many people may believe an account got hijacked once, but a second fine ban lift would make it more likely the person is a cheat.

MackP
05-16-2009, 03:32 PM
Making vac instant would mean the first person banned for a cheat could tell the cheat community not to use it, it is detected.

Resulting in less bans for cheats.

1 year bans have been proven not to work.

Ban their payment methods as well is my call. Make it a pain and have to get a new credit card or paypal account every time they cheat.

Ban's should however be able to be lifted on payment of a fine, the fine should refect the number of detections. A fine of $50 per engine comes to mind. The account should however show every fine paid previous ban.

Doing this would allow those that got their accounts hijacked the chance to un vac ban their account. Many people may believe an account got hijacked once, but a second fine ban lift would make it more likely the person is a cheat.
You may have something there.
1st ban (caused by hijacker for instance) -pay the fine and play on
2nd ban - no fine, permanent ban

that sounds fair, if you got jacked, you pay, if you did cheat you still pay, either way you pay the fine for 1st ban, but 2nd is permanent. If you don't pay the 1st ban fine, stays perm.

That way if you want to cheat (or test cheats) you have to pay for the ride. If you didn't cheat, you get your games back (you still have to pay tho, but I think the owner that has many games on account and doesn't cheat would be willing to pay to get unbanned)

Lambda207
06-04-2009, 06:17 PM
You may have something there.
1st ban (caused by hijacker for instance) -pay the fine and play on
2nd ban - no fine, permanent ban

that sounds fair, if you got jacked, you pay, if you did cheat you still pay, either way you pay the fine for 1st ban, but 2nd is permanent. If you don't pay the 1st ban fine, stays perm.

That way if you want to cheat (or test cheats) you have to pay for the ride. If you didn't cheat, you get your games back (you still have to pay tho, but I think the owner that has many games on account and doesn't cheat would be willing to pay to get unbanned)
Too be fair, how would that really stop cheating. there are people who will cheat regardless. and what if you were hacked by someone. they could cheat a million times and only be more $$$$ for you to pay off. how about this<

1st ban}You get a stern warning and get suspended for x amount of time-but can play if i don't know like a few hours.
2nd ban)PermaBan.
every time you get caught cheating, you get negative hits on your reputation, and if it goes below 0, The Perma Ban Applies.

MackP
06-24-2009, 10:53 PM
Too be fair, how would that really stop cheating. there are people who will cheat regardless. and what if you were hacked by someone. they could cheat a million times and only be more $$$$ for you to pay off. how about this<

1st ban}You get a stern warning and get suspended for x amount of time-but can play if i don't know like a few hours.
2nd ban)PermaBan.
every time you get caught cheating, you get negative hits on your reputation, and if it goes below 0, The Perma Ban Applies.
i said 1st ban-pay the fine, 2nd ban-no fine, perm ban.

and about your suggestion, hell no.
no x time involved, only money-pay the piper.
that way valve could be compensated for extra support they would provide by unbanning accounts. period.

if you cheated, you pay-you are happy, valve is happy.
if you didn't cheat, then pay for having your acc jacked-you are not happy (because you didn't cheat and you have to pay, but you ARE happy for having your acc unbanned in the end), valve is happy.
either way, valve is happy and that could make them decide to do this.

GeneralTrivium
02-28-2010, 12:23 PM
Damn, sorry for the HUGE bump here. But the argument on this idea seems to have come to an indecisive end.

I'll reiterate the points.

VAC detects a cheat for the first time on the user's system.

A little while later perhaps between 1 - 2 weeks the user gets banned for 1 year, their Steam payment methods are locked and they cannot play their game at all for ONE YEAR

The ban is lifted after 1 year and the ability to buy from Steam is granted.

The user has been detected to have cheats AGAIN.

A little while later they are banned again, this time permanently. They cannot use the Steam payment system, they cannot play their game.

Feel free to play around with this concept.

L.o.D.
02-28-2010, 01:04 PM
Temp bans do not work.
Period.
End of story.

Zefar
02-28-2010, 02:08 PM
We know this don't work because we know that VAC already used this system. This is why it's Permanent now.

Oh and all Anti cheat bans are permanent. MMORPG usually have a warning system for low things but when it gets serious like botting. You are banned permanently.

So why should Valve try it again when NO ONE uses such system because it just doesn't work.

Matt: Yea it should be on all MP games on the account.

Sure it sucks for people who give out their password and such but they can serve as a warning to others.