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>VLN<
09-25-2009, 09:55 AM
Will all us PC gamers with older cards be able to play direct x 11 games on 10.1 hardware? :confused:

mjke
09-25-2009, 09:56 AM
no. you need a dx 11 card to play dx11 games

lhwj
09-25-2009, 09:56 AM
Yeah. It's backwards compatible, just like how you can play DX10 games on DX9 hardware, without the DX10 features of course.

There's gonna be lots of people with DX10 cards wanting to play these DX11 games and locking out all those people just doesn't make sense. A DX11 game like Dirt 2 would work on DX9 and 10 cards.

you need a dx 11 card to play turn on dx11 features in Dx11 games

Fixed that for you.

Luke

renegadeafk
09-25-2009, 10:03 AM
Yes. And some features of directx11 work with 10.1 cards:

Parts of the new API such as multi-threaded resource handling can be supported on Direct3D 9/10/10.1-class hardware. Hardware tessellation and Shader Model 5.0 will require Direct3D 11 supporting hardware.[31] Microsoft has since released the Direct3D 11 Technical Preview.[32] Direct3D 11 is a strict superset of Direct3D 10.1 - all hardware and API features of version 10.1 are retained, and new features are added only when necessary for exposing new functionality.

mjke
09-25-2009, 10:05 AM
thanks luke ;)

>VLN<
09-25-2009, 12:22 PM
Have some rep Luke for the quick answer. ;)

Katrina Looter
09-25-2009, 05:26 PM
i had heard that their might be some sort of firmware update released to enable DX11 on the high-end cards being used right now.

i agree that it would be foolish to lock out all those people who are definitely interested in DX11.

rotNdude
09-25-2009, 05:30 PM
i had heard that their might be some sort of firmware update released to enable DX11 on the high-end cards being used right now.

This is not going to happen.

Katrina Looter
09-25-2009, 05:33 PM
yeah, i figured that.

i didnt say it came from a credible source, i was just throwing it out there.

steveroger
09-26-2009, 10:20 AM
Is DX 11 going to have much of a visual impact? The impact of DX10 as far as I could tell was in Crysis. The impact of 10.1 was in H.A.W.X. (my 4890 creates eye popping improvement cf. to my old 8800 Ultra). Other than these two games, I couldn't actually see a measurable difference. And believe me I did like what I saw in those two games. The few games that they have announced for DX 11 what can we expact to actually see.

Toto pectore
09-26-2009, 10:51 AM
Main visual difference will be made by tesselation - which basically adds more polygons to model and makes angular models more curved (some example here (http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,695861/Stalker-Call-of-Pripyat-The-first-DirectX-11-screenshots/News/)).

Another important feature (not visual) is improved multithreading (for x-core CPUs) and Direct compute (which is similar to OpenCL or CUDA for GPGPU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPGPU)s).

renegadeafk
09-26-2009, 10:58 AM
Stuff like the multithreading improvements and the new apis (direct2d/directcompute ect.) do work with dx10 hardware though :)

But tessellation is the big thing you will be missing if you dont have a dx11 card.

For example directcompute:
DirectCompute enables applications in Windows 7 to take advantage of GPU Computing to accelerate applications, and’ll be distributed as part of the DirectX 11 API and is fully supported by NVIDIA’s current lineup of DirectX 10 GPUs..

GrandpaQ
09-26-2009, 11:19 AM
Will all us PC gamers with older cards be able to play direct x 11 games on 10.1 hardware? :confused:

Yes as it takes a lot of directx 10 with it. Here is a good article that explains directx 11.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3507&p=1

Some people think game developers will jump from dx 9 to dx 11 as it offers some time savings and better multi processer improvements. ( good for anyone buying a new PC.

Toto pectore
09-26-2009, 01:28 PM
The biggest obstruction in spreading of DX10 were Windows Vista. This OS became unpopular, many users stayed with good old WinXp (even if they had DX10 card) and there were not many customers for who will be DX10 motivation to buy a game. The situation has changed, Vista is more augmented (because Microsoft stopped selling WinXP ;) ), Win7 is looking promising and DX11 will be available for Vistas and Win7s.

But I thing some devs will still stick to DX9 because of easier conversion or they will support both: DX9 and DX11.

Baron_Fel
09-26-2009, 01:38 PM
Tesselation and SSAO both look amazing.

steveroger
09-26-2009, 01:50 PM
Thanks for that information on the DX11. I really liked the improvements that 10.1 made so I am into this. I have a 4890, if I got a 5870 is there any reason to keep the 4890 in my PC?

For example, would the Lucid Hydra technology justify upgrading my mobo from a 790i? And keep the 4890 to run with the 5870, essentially creating a super"gpu"computer?:D

Also, I have a Q6600. Should I get an upgrade to the CPU before getting a 5870?

Baron_Fel
09-26-2009, 03:47 PM
I wouldnt get a 5870 now if I were you, there are no DX11 games, your 4890 1GB still performs well even at 1920x, and nvidia's cards arent out yet.

The Q6600 is perfectly fine. An OC would help performance in non threaded apps.

we dont know if Lucid Hydra is going to be the real deal yet. And getting it (as far as we know) would necessitate a new high end LGA 1136 mobo (and CPU/RAM).

steveroger
09-26-2009, 05:18 PM
Sounds like instead of upgrading to 5870/Lucid Hydrid capability I might as well start from scratch once the technology is released.

LordEC911
09-26-2009, 06:19 PM
I wouldnt get a 5870 now if I were you, there are no DX11 games, your 4890 1GB still performs well even at 1920x, and nvidia's cards arent out yet.

Battleforge was patched to DX11 and saw a 38% increase in performance over DX10, on the same hardware.
Straight from the horses mouth (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1339222&postcount=3801)

masta121
09-26-2009, 06:28 PM
Will DirectCompute work on DX10/10.1 cards? I'm curious. Also, it's nice that Vista is getting it too, or it would be DX 10 all over again

Pickanewnameplzkthx
09-26-2009, 07:22 PM
There will be DX11 games that's for sure, but there won't be that many for awhile. One that I know will be here is Dirt2 for the PC. That absolutely will have DX11 support. It will also be able to be ran on DX10 and DX9 hardware though too. I doubt we'll see any DX11 only games for a very long while. It would cost a game dev tremendous loss of profits. Most people are not gonna go with DX 11 cards just becasue they came out and a few game devs put it in there. Some will, but not enough to support a game dev with the profit they need to stay in buisness.

Whether someone buys a new card is entirely up to them, and whether they will even use it. Unless they download or buy a DX11 title there really is no need to. It is completely dependent on the individual. Some may even elect to buy a DX11 ttile and just use the DX10 or even DX9. Some users may be running XP and may not want to change because they have XP only titles on their drive. People's needs and wants are different.

One thing that I've noticed about this DX version stuff that has never happened to my knowledge is that we have a situation here where games will have to come out with support for 3 different DX versions. It's getting rediculous. These DX versions need to be released less, and offer more. They are little more than minor improvements, but they render perfectly good hardware useless for little improvement in visual quality and performance. Those increases need to be larger, and they need to put them all in one package ona 2-3 year cycle, instead of these minor tweaks being released as DX versions and causing people to have to shell out expensive video cards again. It's almost turned into a scandal. I have my suspicions what that scandal involves, but I'll keep that to myself.

Baron_Fel
09-26-2009, 07:35 PM
Battleforge was patched to DX11 and saw a 38% increase in performance over DX10, on the same hardware.
Straight from the horses mouth (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1339222&postcount=3801)

Upgrading from a 4890 to a 5870 just isnt necessary unless you are pushing 2560x1600.

steveroger
09-26-2009, 08:31 PM
Anything that creates competition between in the somewhat monopolistic world of graphics cards is a good thing for consumers. Prices would be outrageous absent the ability to tout something new. Plus, we get to pick and choose the how much of that graphical power we want to buy. Further, that 5870 card seems really reasonably priced for the amount power it has along with the attributes of DX11. I am sure that Nvidia will turn around and release something just as awesome, but they won't be able to charge an arm and a leg for it. This going back and forth over pricing and the newest and most powerful technology between the companies is a really good thing for us. Imagine if there was only one company.

LordEC911
09-27-2009, 04:02 PM
Upgrading from a 4890 to a 5870 just isnt necessary unless you are pushing 2560x1600.
Where did I say that you should?
There are definitely quite a few advantages to upgrade to a 5870 but the performance gain would be minimal.

There will be DX11 games that's for sure, but there won't be that many for awhile. One that I know will be here is Dirt2 for the PC. That absolutely will have DX11 support. It will also be able to be ran on DX10 and DX9 hardware though too. I doubt we'll see any DX11 only games for a very long while. It would cost a game dev tremendous loss of profits. Most people are not gonna go with DX 11 cards just becasue they came out and a few game devs put it in there. Some will, but not enough to support a game dev with the profit they need to stay in buisness.

Whether someone buys a new card is entirely up to them, and whether they will even use it. Unless they download or buy a DX11 title there really is no need to. It is completely dependent on the individual. Some may even elect to buy a DX11 ttile and just use the DX10 or even DX9. Some users may be running XP and may not want to change because they have XP only titles on their drive. People's needs and wants are different.

One thing that I've noticed about this DX version stuff that has never happened to my knowledge is that we have a situation here where games will have to come out with support for 3 different DX versions. It's getting rediculous. These DX versions need to be released less, and offer more. They are little more than minor improvements, but they render perfectly good hardware useless for little improvement in visual quality and performance. Those increases need to be larger, and they need to put them all in one package ona 2-3 year cycle, instead of these minor tweaks being released as DX versions and causing people to have to shell out expensive video cards again. It's almost turned into a scandal. I have my suspicions what that scandal involves, but I'll keep that to myself.

Might want to read the DX11 whitepaper T_Flight, if you code a game for DX11, it will automatically create DX10 and DX10.1 pathways.

If a game has DX11 and you have a DX11 card there is no reason not to run DX11, I don't even think you would have a choice... There are many performance advantages to DX11 that you will not get with other versions of DX, though there are 1 or 2 that you get across the board like multi-threading the API.

Edit- Oh and you can thank your precious Nvidia for the whole DX10/10.1 scandal.

Baron_Fel
09-27-2009, 05:11 PM
Where did I say that you should?
There are definitely quite a few advantages to upgrade to a 5870 but the performance gain would be minimal.


I interpeted ur praise of DX11 as saying it was necessary, sry.

steveroger
09-27-2009, 07:16 PM
I interpeted ur praise of DX11 as saying it was necessary, sry.

What is the definition of necessary? Seems more like personal preference. If we got stuck with what was necessary you could say that 9600gso's in SLI is all anybody needs. :D

Pickanewnameplzkthx
09-27-2009, 09:55 PM
Where did I say that you should?
There are definitely quite a few advantages to upgrade to a 5870 but the performance gain would be minimal.



Might want to read the DX11 whitepaper T_Flight, if you code a game for DX11, it will automatically create DX10 and DX10.1 pathways.

If a game has DX11 and you have a DX11 card there is no reason not to run DX11, I don't even think you would have a choice... There are many performance advantages to DX11 that you will not get with other versions of DX, though there are 1 or 2 that you get across the board like multi-threading the API.

Edit- Oh and you can thank your precious Nvidia for the whole DX10/10.1 scandal.

Does it create DX9 Pathways also? I'm kinda curious about that. That would make it easy for developers, but it's still getting silly. In the past a DX version change was a permanent change for the future. They were BIG changes, and while everybody didn;t jump on new cards at once, they eventually did adopt the tech and pretty much the game dev's switched to those newer version exclusively over a fairly short period of time. We have never seen a time that I can remember where games had to support 3 different versions. It's caused by making too many version changes, but not making enough visual quality changes

If you have a DX Card and you don't have DX 11, you can not run in DX 11. You do have a choice just like it is now. Many people have DX 10 cards but are stuill running XP and they run in DX 9. I have another HDD with XP on it, and I have games and simulations running DX 7 on my GTX 280 and it's a DX 10 card. All cards to date have been backwards compatible.

Don;t know what that last sentence weas about. "my precious Nvidia? I don't own Nvidia. I have no ties at all to Nvidia. Nvidia also has nothing to do with DX...neither DX 10 nor DX10.1. DirectX is a Microsoft Product. It has really very little to do with graphics cards manufacturers except for these games. DirectX graphics is but one part of DirectX. DirectX is designed so that the OS can operate in the graphical and Sound and Video Environment. The graphics cards are just the hadware that utilize a portion of DirectX. There also is no scadal involving DirectX10 or 10.1. It's getting close to that, and 10.1 stuff should've been included in DX11. Of course so should all the stuff that was in DX 10. That was the point of my post. Version numbers do not make a DX versions. The content that is in them does, and there isn't enough content in the last three versions that would've warranted a DX version release. DX 9 was a big release, but since then all of these minor updates could've been included in one version. The graphics card companies have nothing at all to do with that. Microsoft is the one who is rushing out these versions before it's time. LIke I said I have my suspicions about why that's happening, but I also said I'm gonna keep that to myself until after it's exposed, but I can tell you it has nothing at all to do with Nvidia.

LordEC911
09-27-2009, 10:46 PM
Does it create DX9 Pathways also? I'm kinda curious about that. That would make it easy for developers, but it's still getting silly. In the past a DX version change was a permanent change for the future. They were BIG changes, and while everybody didn;t jump on new cards at once, they eventually did adopt the tech and pretty much the game dev's switched to those newer version exclusively over a fairly short period of time. We have never seen a time that I can remember where games had to support 3 different versions. It's caused by making too many version changes, but not making enough visual quality changes

If you have a DX Card and you don't have DX 11, you can not run in DX 11. You do have a choice just like it is now. Many people have DX 10 cards but are stuill running XP and they run in DX 9. I have another HDD with XP on it, and I have games and simulations running DX 7 on my GTX 280 and it's a DX 10 card. All cards to date have been backwards compatible.

Don;t know what that last sentence weas about. "my precious Nvidia? I don't own Nvidia. I have no ties at all to Nvidia. Nvidia also has nothing to do with DX...neither DX 10 nor DX10.1. DirectX is a Microsoft Product. It has really very little to do with graphics cards manufacturers except for these games. DirectX graphics is but one part of DirectX. DirectX is designed so that the OS can operate in the graphical and Sound and Video Environment. The graphics cards are just the hadware that utilize a portion of DirectX. There also is no scadal involving DirectX10 or 10.1. It's getting close to that, and 10.1 stuff should've been included in DX11. Of course so should all the stuff that was in DX 10. That was the point of my post. Version numbers do not make a DX versions. The content that is in them does, and there isn't enough content in the last three versions that would've warranted a DX version release. DX 9 was a big release, but since then all of these minor updates could've been included in one version. The graphics card companies have nothing at all to do with that. Microsoft is the one who is rushing out these versions before it's time. LIke I said I have my suspicions about why that's happening, but I also said I'm gonna keep that to myself until after it's exposed, but I can tell you it has nothing at all to do with Nvidia.

Nope, no automatic DX9 pathway. Devs still have to code for backwards compatibility.

What I was saying about the DX10/DX10.1 releases was that Nvidia was able to get Microsoft to relax some of the original requirements for DX10, which is why ATi pushed Microsoft to update and release DX10.1.

All graphics vendors work with Microsoft to create the DX standards and requirements. They don't just sit around and wait for Microsoft to release them.

Tufelhunden
09-27-2009, 10:54 PM
Cannot wait for DX11 to get here, in full force.

IMO DX10 was quite good and in a few games the FPS went up substantially, although the game looked about the same, from DX9 to DX10. If DX11 can improve upon this and look better at the same time, of yea. :)

Pickanewnameplzkthx
09-27-2009, 11:38 PM
From what I've read it will. I'm looking at it too. I'm waiting to see the GT300 stuff, and I'm thinking about going SLI, but whern I do I'll need to buy more watercooling gear and split my waterloop loop up. I currently have a single GPU and the CPU on one loop, but don;t know whether it would be a good idea to try 2xGPU's and my CPU in the same loop. I'm worried that the extra heat dump coupled with the flow drop would take me over the hump. If I do the upgrade I wanna do a substantial upgrade, and that will cost substantial money so I really wanna see what this stuff is gonna do first. It may turn out that waiting another generation may be the smart thing to do. I also wanna get a feel for how long DX may be sticking around.

I've been wanting to get a racing game, and have the wheel for it, and have been looking at Dirt2, and I need to see what that is like too. It's gonna have to offer a substantial uipgrade in graphics quality for me to do it, because I already have the performance. I could deal with more FPS in Crysis (who couldn't), but I wanna see some serious graphical improvements. The improvement in performance isn't enough because I already have excellent performance now on DX10. What I'm trying to figure out is if this is gonna be a jump like DX9 was from DX8, and if it's gonna be here to stay for awhile, and none of this 11.1 crap. It's gonna take scrteenshot comparison reviews from places, and some info on where DX devs are headed for the future, and some hard numbers on the hardware. None of this Fud stuff either, but from real people saying "My old card did this, and my new one does this." Other than that I will trust the guys at XtremeSystems (the ones with the pre-release samples) that do their wizzardry on them. They go by the mantra "Screenshots or it didn't happen". hehe :)

steveroger
09-27-2009, 11:47 PM
A far more intelligent a discussion of Direct X and DX11, including information about it's history, purpose and future can be found here (http://www.dailytech.com/Games%20Will%20Leap%20Towards%20PhotoRealism%20Wit h%20DirectX%2011/article16256.htm).

A much more coherent discussion of Nvidia's postion on it can be found here (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20090916140327_Nvidia_DirectX_11_Will_Not_Catalyze _Sales_of_Graphics_Cards.html).

Either way, the consumer wins. Unless you are a fan boy. And Fan boys always pay more.

Pickanewnameplzkthx
09-28-2009, 12:25 AM
A far more intelligent a discussion of Direct X and DX11, including information about it's history, purpose and future can be found here (http://www.dailytech.com/Games%20Will%20Leap%20Towards%20PhotoRealism%20Wit h%20DirectX%2011/article16256.htm).

A much more coherent discussion of Nvidia's postion on it can be found here (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20090916140327_Nvidia_DirectX_11_Will_Not_Catalyze _Sales_of_Graphics_Cards.html).

Either way, the consumer wins. Unless you are a airconditioned youth. And airconditioned youths always pay more.

Thanks man! That was actually pretty intelligent, but I did see a couple of replies at the bottom of the seond link. I laughed my tail off when I saw that phanboi saying Nvidia was gonna apply for a bailout. hahahahhaaha Damn that was funny. For one thing there won't be any more bailouts even if a company is failing, and we're currently working on ousting those responsible for that failure and will be collecting the tax dollars they illegally gave away after being told not to in the first place by the people in control of this Country.

That was hilarious! hahahahhahaha I'm still laughing man. I'm seriously starting to believe that chronic stupidty has somehow become contageous, and that it has been a refined disease in a lab somewhere that people have been purposely infected with. You couldn't have a better study case man. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! Man, that made my night. :D Whew. Man, my stomach is hurting after that. I can't stop laughing.