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Old 03-29-2010, 10:07 AM   #1
Latrodectus
 
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Cybran Battleships Need A Nerf

The range on them is just far too long. It would be one thing if they couldn't walk on land, but they can, therefor negating the need to have such a massive range. They're a stand alone unit that doesn't need any help to kill virtually anything in the game because you can't reach them before you're dead, and their anti-air can swat just about anything out of the air. But yeah, nerf the range or chop off their legs, because as they are they're just a 1-size-fits-all unit right now, there isn't even an experimental in the game that can meet that same criteria.
 
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:31 AM   #2
DrSuperGood
 
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and their anti-air can swat just about anything out of the air.
This is not exactly true, their anti air is massivly lacking, matching the same capabilities of 2 rock head tanks at like 5 times the price. Infact the destroyers have better AA capabilites as far as I can tell than the battleships. Combined with low packing density means that their overall AA power per unit area is far less than a UEF player sending in a group of rockhead tanks with AA upgrade enabled.

Try taking them down with gunships via focus fire.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:59 PM   #3
Latrodectus
 
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This is not exactly true, their anti air is massivly lacking, matching the same capabilities of 2 rock head tanks at like 5 times the price.
Considering they have anti-air, torpedoes, and long range weapons that have an AoE damage effect, that's not exactly a strong point. It's ridiculous that their only "counter" is gunships, seeing as how Aeon hover units can't touch them due to their speed and long range (honestly what's the point there?) and the UEF submarine can't kill it because their torpedoes and health will brush any subs aside. Then, throw in their speed as well, so if the ships are running away from the gunships you probably won't catch all of them before your gunships are dead. That, topped off with the fact that UEF naval units are pretty much garbage anyway compared to the Cybran fleet. The fact that they even HAVE anti-air is puzzling alone, why was one unit crammed with so much capability? A non-experimental unit at that. I mean it's not like there's a lot of naval units to begin with, so you're going to make it worse by making only one of them really viable? Seems kind of stupid to me all in all. I mean they are seriously better than any experimental unit out there (even/especially experimental naval units, so what's the point of them existing?).

I mean, late game, when these things start rolling onto land, they make land units useless, which is adding insult to injury since a commander's over-charge (or the Cybran AoE DoT thing) can already render large clusters of land units helpless. Honestly, I'm ok with that, because that shifts the game towards using experimentals to back up your army. The only problem is that air units and battleships eat your experimentals alive. I'm going off on a tangent at this point, but I might as well consolidate all of my complaints in one thread.

So basically my biggest problems are this: AoE attacks on ground units (commanders, experimentals, battleships, artillery, mobile artillery, etc) cause the player to use experimentals late in the game to shift the game play. However, since there's no AoE anti-air ability, air experimentals aren't worth it since they'll just get focus fired in an air attack, but if you just swarm with fighters, you'll be much more effective. So the re-introduction of Flak to the game would add more depth to the fighter and gunship swarm mentality since experimentals would be more viable.

The other problem you run into with air units is that they are much more superior units when it comes to attacking. The reason is that if one player goes land and another player goes air, the land player will have to slowly trek his way to the air player's base, since land units move at such slow speeds, comparatively. So even if the air player doesn't shred his ground units, he could just as easily fly around his army and attack the land guy's base, since there's simply no feasible counter to air unit swarms other than an air unit swarm.

This all comes back to the Cybran Navy problem because the only counter to Cybran Naval units is...other Cybran Naval units (with gunships as kind of a medium, but not exactly a hard counter). It's like trying to fight a fire and the only tools at your disposal are dried up twigs and your own fire. So the only choice you're left with is to fight fire with fire. Personally speaking, that doesn't really strike me as a lucrative RTS dynamic. The game is still missing a few checks and balances over all.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:38 PM   #4
jdub121686
 
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...Cybran Salems scrub Executioners on the high seas. Their only use for me is floating artillery to soften up defence.

And no their AA isnt super impressive. however UEF Cruiser AA is impressive.
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:02 PM   #5
Latrodectus
 
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...Cybran Salems scrub Executioners on the high seas. Their only use for me is floating artillery to soften up defence.
Well see, that's the problem, they should be used to soften up defense, but then they also become your main assault force by walking on land as well. The unit simply does too much and by being so superior it makes things boring since it out shines everything else.
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:00 PM   #6
DrSuperGood
 
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UEF cruisers and battlehips I think will win against cybran ones 1v1 purly because they can not go on land (thus as they are less versitile they need to be better at what they do from a ballence point of view). Their submariens are extreemly cheap, I think costing under 100 mass meaning you get literally 4-5 for every battleship the cybrans make whish is more than enough to kill them.

The aeon might actually be a problem, they should make sure that their experimental sea hunters are atleast fast enough to easilly catch up with the cybran ships. Alternitvly they could change the turrenting angles so retreating cybran ships can not shoot effectivly on pusuing targets forcing them to turn around and fight close up.

In the end, yes the cybran ships do have anti air, however it is the same as your ACU or rockhead tanks, it helps against air but is not a counter. Compared to moble anti air guns and actual anti air guns the battleships pale. I have experienced it that the AI overwhelms and sinks whole fleats of 8 battleships and 8 destroyers via its constant air attacks, if they focused properly on one ship at a time they would easilly have sunk them.

They are weak against air as apposed to something like a land point defense which is vundrable to air (can not hit it).

You could also try hitting them with artillery, they may be fast and versitile however they actually are not too tough and something like a disruptor artillery burst can knock huge chunts of their HP off. Equally well if you have axcess to a temple or unit cannon, you could try sending units directly next to them to exploit their lowish durability.

I would like to remind people that cyran battleships need water to be built meaning they are unavailable on some maps. Equally they cost a lot more than normal land units so will be in smaller numbers. I am sure a counter strat exists and I am also sure that they are worthy of a slight nerf (damage reduction for both cannon and aa?). The question comes to mind, can fatboys take them down or are they out ranged, as fatboys would be a perfect counter being in simlar price ranges and having simlar or more fire power.

Last edited by DrSuperGood: 03-29-2010 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:17 PM   #7
Latrodectus
 
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UEF cruisers and battlehips I think will win against cybran ones 1v1 purly because they can not go on land (thus as they are less versitile they need to be better at what they do).
Well you thought wrong, the UEF cruiser has less than half the HP of a battleship, and its main cannon is extremely weak. The Poseidon has 1000 hp more (pre-upgrades, that is) but not as much range. Pound for pound the Executioner is simply a better unit.


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In the end, yes the cybran ships do have anti air, however it is the same as your ACU or rockhead tanks, it helps against air but is not a counter. Compared to moble anti air guns and actual anti air guns the battleships pale.
Not exactly, ground-based anti-air is pretty pitiful as it is, and the Cybran ships rival it; not that that's saying much. But surface-to-air damage is another problem entirely.


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You could also try hitting them with artillery, they may be fast and versitile however they actually are not too tough and something like a disruptor artillery burst can knock huge chunts of their HP off.
This is not true, they have a pretty nice chunk of health, as much as some of the minor experimentals.


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Equally well if you have axcess to a temple or unit cannon, you could try sending units directly next to them to exploit their lowish durability.
Not so much with the unit cannon, since the units come in one at a time, and if he has a lot of battle ships they'll all fire at the unit as it hits the ground, being sure to splash the other units that are on their way as well. Also, I knew people would bring up the unit cannon and space temple, but there's a problem with that: you have to use two trees to counter a single tree. Since you can't use those structures if you're not deep in the structures tree, and if your land units aren't upgraded, they won't be effective against the battleships, at all. On top of that, the unit cannon and space temple are generally offensive structures; not that I'm saying that they can't be used for defense, but if you ARE using them for defense, you're in trouble.
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Old 03-29-2010, 02:07 PM   #8
Headlss
 
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I like the walking navy. I'm going to defend it here. Just so you know. And if your problem is the battleships you are playing too slow, The destroyers level is where the damage should happen.

First Gunships can fight destroyers and battleships. It's a long ugly battle with lots of casualties on both sides but gunships can win this battle, I think damage per mass is near equal (someone that looks stuff us can correct me) but more importantly the ships are bigger and more slower than gunships. this means they are easier to hit. and more importanly they are much easier to micro and focus fire. Plus gunships are faster so it is easier to attack the shipyards then the airfac's


UEF sub's. again this is a long bloody battle, but the uef can out produce subs, they are much cheaper than destroyers.

aeon hover army. eat's the navy up. but the navy has range (and probably sight as well) This turns into a micro battle. the cybran needs to move his fleet around at the edge of range until the aeon army is wittled down and he can finnish them off. THe aeon needs to stay out of range and then rush all the way in to point blank range, and tear those ships down with laser fire. Aeon have teleport to make this happen. And from my experence while I have no problem microing the ships to take less damage, I have a hard time microing them to focus fire and do more damage faster.

Any land army. if an equal sized land army can get close enough to engage the navy the land army wins. On land the ships don't move fast enough to get away. The problem is, or the advantage the navy has, it they are a navy. They can travel across the water and show up with a full army where you don't expect them. If you have an army waiting for them they are dead meat.

UEF tac arty. this won't kill a good navy but it will keep them away, or make them micro, alot. This will give you time.

DO NOT engage with: MML's they maybe one of the few land units that can reach, but if the cybran is paying attention a little micro means none of your shots hit.

UEF cruisers, MML's miss, the tool tip says keep the crusiers away from navy.

a smaller army, it is a high cost to engage the navy becuase they have splash damage and long range you will take casualties just getting into range, if you are going to pay that price make it worth it. It's often best to wait for the ships to come ashore and lose mobility to engage with land forces.

Only static D. yes the tac arty can put some preasure on the navy, but static D is the only thing the navy can out micro. They have long range high powered cannons with splash damage. They are the perfect unit to break a defense.

Finally don't try to whittle them down. They will win the war of attrition. If you cannot kill at least 1 destroyer don't engage. They have a lot of hit points and get a lot more from veterancy.

That's the strength of the naval units, they are big, they hit hard and have a lot of hit points. They are going to live through several battles. They will gain a lot of veterancy. They are a major investment and a major concentration of force. The down side is if you lose them you are in some real troubble. You've lost your army and it take much longer to rebuild a fighting force of ships than it does air or sea.

The cybran Navy can also show up anywhere which makes them a more versitile fighting force the the uef. but a walking battlship costs 10 reserch and 400+ mass. It is an experimental and my favorite experimental. Instead of nerfing the battleships I think they should be the baseline for other X units.
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Old 03-29-2010, 02:43 PM   #9
TarlSS
 
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Me too. Honestly land experimentals are way too expensive. If a megalith or fatboy cost the same as an executioner, I think we'd be set.

Obviously KK/Lizard and GC need to be improved substantially.
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:17 PM   #10
Latrodectus
 
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Originally Posted by Headlss View Post
I like the walking navy. I'm going to defend it here. Just so you know. And if your problem is the battleships you are playing too slow, The destroyers level is where the damage should happen.

First Gunships can fight destroyers and battleships. It's a long ugly battle with lots of casualties on both sides but gunships can win this battle, I think damage per mass is near equal (someone that looks stuff us can correct me) but more importantly the ships are bigger and more slower than gunships. this means they are easier to hit. and more importanly they are much easier to micro and focus fire. Plus gunships are faster so it is easier to attack the shipyards then the airfac's


UEF sub's. again this is a long bloody battle, but the uef can out produce subs, they are much cheaper than destroyers.

aeon hover army. eat's the navy up. but the navy has range (and probably sight as well) This turns into a micro battle. the cybran needs to move his fleet around at the edge of range until the aeon army is wittled down and he can finish them off. THe aeon needs to stay out of range and then rush all the way in to point blank range, and tear those ships down with laser fire. Aeon have teleport to make this happen. And from my experence while I have no problem microing the ships to take less damage, I have a hard time microing them to focus fire and do more damage faster.

Any land army. if an equal sized land army can get close enough to engage the navy the land army wins. On land the ships don't move fast enough to get away. The problem is, or the advantage the navy has, it they are a navy. They can travel across the water and show up with a full army where you don't expect them. If you have an army waiting for them they are dead meat.

UEF tac arty. this won't kill a good navy but it will keep them away, or make them micro, alot. This will give you time.

DO NOT engage with: MML's they maybe one of the few land units that can reach, but if the cybran is paying attention a little micro means none of your shots hit.

UEF cruisers, MML's miss, the tool tip says keep the crusiers away from navy.

a smaller army, it is a high cost to engage the navy becuase they have splash damage and long range you will take casualties just getting into range, if you are going to pay that price make it worth it. It's often best to wait for the ships to come ashore and lose mobility to engage with land forces.

Only static D. yes the tac arty can put some preasure on the navy, but static D is the only thing the navy can out micro. They have long range high powered cannons with splash damage. They are the perfect unit to break a defense.

Finally don't try to whittle them down. They will win the war of attrition. If you cannot kill at least 1 destroyer don't engage. They have a lot of hit points and get a lot more from veterancy.

That's the strength of the naval units, they are big, they hit hard and have a lot of hit points. They are going to live through several battles. They will gain a lot of veterancy. They are a major investment and a major concentration of force. The down side is if you lose them you are in some real troubble. You've lost your army and it take much longer to rebuild a fighting force of ships than it does air or sea.

The cybran Navy can also show up anywhere which makes them a more versitile fighting force the the uef. but a walking battlship costs 10 reserch and 400+ mass. It is an experimental and my favorite experimental. Instead of nerfing the battleships I think they should be the baseline for other X units.
Yeah, see, here's your problem: UEF submarines might cost less and build faster, but they can also only attack water units/structures (they have a gun that shoots stuff when it surfaces, but it's so damn weak it's not even worth mentioning). With the Cybran Navy, there is no risk involved, at all. In every one of your examples you say it's a "long and bloody battle" and that's because they have no real counter, you just have to try and brute force them down. That means there's something wrong with the unit, even the Universal Colossus has a weakness, and it costs much more in both research and build time/cost.

Also, Aeon units can't go toe to toe with them, not even close. First off, Aeon units move very erratically on water for some strange reason, making it hard to make them move the way you want them to. That's pretty annoying when you're trying to dance through artillery so you can get close enough to teleport. Aeon land units simply aren't fast enough to close the distance quick enough, even with teleport. Also, the ships move pretty damn fast on land, much faster than the destroyers did in Supreme Commander 1.

Let me consolidate my point again here: why should some one be able to spam just one unit and be able to brute force everything down? That's what was happening before they nerfed gunships, and it's happening with the Cybran battleship, possibly even more so.
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:14 PM   #11
Headlss
 
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well first of all this is a spam game. Spam air, spam land sure you have differnent units but for the most part you use them as a ball. And spam sea.

I've told you how to kill the navy with air land and sea. What more do you want. The cybran navy, much like a real navy has alot of weapon systems and they can all fire at once. which means it can fight a force of submarines, a force of gunships and a force of floating tanks or other ships all at the same time. This will triple their DPS. DON'T DO THAT!!!

The cybran navy as a generalist can fight against all other forces but they will lose to an equal sized force of specialists. The aeon can not chase down and kill the cybrans on open water. but they can keep the cybrans out in deep water where they can't hit , if he comes too close advance and then teleport and kill them. It's a micro battle, maybe you win maybe you lose. If he makes a mistake jump in among the ships and kill them all. then move on the ship yards and win the game. You can produce units faster so you don't need to be as careful with them.

The thing I like about the navy is they are one of the few units worth keeping alive. everything else is so small and cheep it just gets thrown at the enemy and ground up. (to a greater or lesser extent) Fatboy you might want to keep alive but he is so slow and has no defense against air it can be picked off any time. the ac 1000 is an other unit fast enough to get away if the engagement isn't going well. I think that adds something.
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Old 03-29-2010, 07:11 PM   #12
DrSuperGood
 
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One thing I noticed once was fatboys are known as submarines when under water while they can still fire their main guns when on the coast (unless fixed in a patch). This could be used as a counter to the battleships as they will not be able to shoot at them due to them being subs and if they get close to torpedo them, they will get totally mowed down by the fatboy guns. I will proceed to investigate this behaviour further.
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:45 PM   #13
Headlss
 
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the other power of the navy is they out number you. In games I go sea I will check the AAR and I will have produced 60 to 80 units and lost 9 to 16 of them. I've got 2/3rd to 7/8th of my resourse still on the field and doing damage. team mates going air or land will have 2/3rds to 4/5th of their units die.

Of course the navy wins it out numbers land and air 2 to 1 at least, by the end of the game.
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Old 03-30-2010, 02:24 AM   #14
Latrodectus
 
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the other power of the navy is they out number you. In games I go sea I will check the AAR and I will have produced 60 to 80 units and lost 9 to 16 of them.
Gee, I wonder why that is. Maybe it's because the unit is imbalanced and has no real rival. Oh no, my mistake, it's clearly because you're such a good micro-manager and strategist.

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well first of all this is a spam game. Spam air, spam land sure you have differnent units but for the most part you use them as a ball. And spam sea.
Right, the only difference is that land units are the only ones penalized for spamming large numbers due to there being several types of AoE-based ground attacks.

Quote:
I've told you how to kill the navy with air land and sea. What more do you want. The cybran navy, much like a real navy has alot of weapon systems and they can all fire at once. which means it can fight a force of submarines, a force of gunships and a force of floating tanks or other ships all at the same time. This will triple their DPS. DON'T DO THAT!!!
Yeah, the problem is that your strategies don't work or they're impractical. Try not to compare the Cybran navy to real naval ships, as they don't have legs (for starters). The King Kriptor also has a lot of weapon systems, but it doesn't have long-range cannons, torpedos, anti-air, and doesn't move as fast with amphibious combat capabilities. It's also a lot more expensive in terms of research and cost.
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Old 03-30-2010, 10:05 AM   #15
Headlss
 
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Originally Posted by Latrodectus View Post
Gee, I wonder why that is. Maybe it's because the unit is imbalanced and has no real rival. Oh no, my mistake, it's clearly because you're such a good micro-manager and strategist.
No it's not because I'm a master strategist. It's because they have alot of hit points. What that means is they are forgiveing enough that even my feeble micro skills can keep them alive if I work at it. And I do work at it I micro them and I don't engage where I will lose.


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Originally Posted by Latrodectus View Post
Right, the only difference is that land units are the only ones penalized for spamming large numbers due to there being several types of AoE-based ground attacks.
Land is supposed to make up for that by having experimentals that add staying power. Only problem is they suck. Instead of nerfing the units that are fun to play with. Why don't they make the units that arn't fun to play with, cheaper and better so we actully see some on the field.


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Originally Posted by Latrodectus View Post
Yeah, the problem is that your strategies don't work or they're impractical. Try not to compare the Cybran navy to real naval ships, as they don't have legs (for starters). The King Kriptor also has a lot of weapon systems, but it doesn't have long-range cannons, torpedos, anti-air, and doesn't move as fast with amphibious combat capabilities. It's also a lot more expensive in terms of research and cost.

All of these strategies do work. I've been denigyed the sea by both air and submariens. I've had both tac arty and a well microed land army keep me way out where I was completely irrelevant. but since I go all in navy to counter me you need to go all in counter. which means that you aren't going to be able to build 1 fleet of air ships and win every battle. If you send air after sea, that's what you're doing that game. losesing gunships over the ocean. the up side is that's what he's doing thie game too. loseing destroyers in the ocean
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