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Old 02-20-2012, 04:23 AM   #1
real-X
 
 
 
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Ideas for 'ideal' VAC?

Step 1 - Player A reports Player B as a potential/obvious cheater.
Step 2 - VAC picks up the report and it's stored in queue for reviewing. Date, Time, Map, Mod of the match are recorded.
Step 3 - Admin checks out the report, browses through Player B's profile (K/D ration, Accuracy, W/L ration, Play time etc.) and as an admin is able to access Theater mode to review the match in question.

Even if doable from a programming end, I'm aware this would be a lot of micro management. But look at the psychological impact this would have: Say there are ## of Admins going through reports that are in queue. Cheating player knows that if he's spotted and reported it will be a matter of time when the match in question will be reviewed, naturally getting him banned. Even if Admins were flooded with reports (as I imagine they would be), cheating and getting reported will SURELY be spotted sooner or later with appropriate action taken.

Additionally if a certain Player is reported by many in various matches, his profile would be tied to many reports by many players thus climbing in the queue faster, which would hasten detection of cheaters. While players who don't cheat get reported as well for having nice scores, they surely aren't as frequently reported as those who throw nukes 1min into the match, this would help with obvious cheaters that almost every player can spot.

The end result should be:
1 - Reduction in ## of cheaters due to Players knowing that being spotted = being banned 100% once the report is reviewed.
2 - Depending on the number and effectiveness of Admins, constantly watching and taking action against cheaters would have a better effect in the long run than occasional mass banning (that imo serves only as a publicity stunt to show that 'something' is being done).

Last edited by real-X: 02-20-2012 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:36 AM   #2
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Do you know how many games vs number of people that work at Valve there actually are?

You could sit a team of 50 down and have them go through games non stop and still wouldn't get anywhere near completion for the day, that baklogs to the next, then the next and eventually you're checking reports from 6 months ago!

It WOULD work if everytime someone didn't get killed, they raged "OMG CHEATERRZZZZ HAXX!!" and reported people for just being.... good!

You'd also have to record EVERY match at EVERY moment in EVERY game......!
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:44 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cylon View Post
Do you know how many games vs number of people that work at Valve there actually are?

You could sit a team of 50 down and have them go through games non stop and still wouldn't get anywhere near completion for the day, that baklogs to the next, then the next and eventually you're checking reports from 6 months ago!
Crowd source it; "Am I a cheat or not?" - people rate 'cheaters' based on reported content; people who correctly identify cheaters who subsequently get VAC infractions get added credibility weighted to their up votes; the results get put into a community-maintained global banlist; "active adminning" becomes functional, rather than a meme stupid sub-forumites spout off about foolishly.

However, for VAC to be a credible deterrent it requires:
Global Banning (cheaters can't simply move to the newest game and cheat again)
Payment system Blacklisting (cheaters can't simply rebuy games to resume cheating with)
IP and GUID tracking and detection (grey-listing)
And notifying people who report cheaters when said cheaters get banned to demonstrate its efficacy.

Until these things are employed, it is not a credible deterrent, it's a joke.

Last edited by Ace42: 02-20-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:57 AM   #4
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Quote:
Step 1 - Player A reports Player B as a potential/obvious cheater.
Step 2 - VAC picks up the report and it's stored in queue for reviewing. Date, Time, Map, Mod of the match are recorded.
Step 3 - Admin checks out the report, browses through Player B's profile (K/D ration, Accuracy, W/L ration, Play time etc.) and as an admin is able to access Theater mode to review the match in question.
Let me guess... COD?

Cos ideal VAC would be how it is, but with admins on dedicated servers, thats all you need for a good system.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by cereal3 View Post
Let me guess... COD?

Cos ideal VAC would be how it is, but with admins on dedicated servers, thats all you need for a good system.
That is how this system works now. All it succeeds at is breeding paranoia.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:03 AM   #6
ester25
 
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What you have described is not an anti-cheat tool, but moderation system. Since one would have to hire a team of reviewers, only games that will be able to have this implemented are subscription games. But if you are willing to pay monthly just to play your favourite FPS, why not rent a server and then you can kick/ban whoever you want.

if you want a "perfect" automatic system, what can only work with white-listing allowed processes, rather that blacklisting known cheats. And this would be far to inconvenient for most PC users, hence why it doesn't happen.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by ester25 View Post
What you have described is not an anti-cheat tool, but moderation system. Since one would have to hire a team of reviewers, only games that will be able to have this implemented are subscription games. But if you are willing to pay monthly just to play your favourite FPS, why not rent a server and then you can kick/ban whoever you want.

if you want a "perfect" automatic system, what can only work with white-listing allowed processes, rather that blacklisting known cheats. And this would be far to inconvenient for most PC users, hence why it doesn't happen.
Aren't they UNRANKED?
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:57 PM   #8
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CoD doesn't use VAC for its intended purpose. Therefore, VAC doesn't work well in MW2 or 3. End of story.
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:20 PM   #9
Tito Shivan
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by real-X View Post
The end result should be:
1 - Reduction in ## of cheaters due to Players knowing that being spotted = being banned 100% once the report is reviewed.
2 - Depending on the number and effectiveness of Admins, constantly watching and taking action against cheaters would have a better effect in the long run than occasional mass banning (that imo serves only as a publicity stunt to show that 'something' is being done).
I disagree.
1. Increase on number of cheaters, due to the review system being overwhelmed with cheating requests and no may of delivering enough manpower to effectively deal with the workload.
(Even with a reporter rating scheme, that would be twisted and rendered useless in no time)
2. Cheaters (and griefers) will be lured into the system to either cheat (their wrongdoing being lost in a sea of reports) or to grief accussing legal players (and god forbid some Valve employee into making a mistake and banning him)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace42 View Post
Global Banning (cheaters can't simply move to the newest game and cheat again)
Payment system Blacklisting (cheaters can't simply rebuy games to resume cheating with)
IP and GUID tracking and detection (grey-listing)
Supposedly Valve was working in systems to catch recurring infringers, according to the TF2 F2P update FAQ... They are still to be seen
I do agree VAC need some sort of ban mechanism besides banning accounts.

Last edited by Tito Shivan: 02-20-2012 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:56 PM   #10
ester25
 
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what is unranked? Wait, is this all just about Modern Warfare games? Go away then, nobody wants you here. People who knowingly buy that garbage belong on consoles.
VAC is mostly about serious games like Counter Strike and TF2.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:45 AM   #11
ΩBSOLETE
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ester25 View Post
what is unranked? Wait, is this all just about Modern Warfare games? Go away then, nobody wants you here. People who knowingly buy that garbage belong on consoles.
VAC is mostly about serious games like Counter Strike and TF2.
/THREAD

This man speaks truth
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:10 AM   #12
sebastiannielse
 
 
 
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Ace42: "Payment system Blacklisting (cheaters can't simply rebuy games to resume cheating with)"


No, dont refuse the buy.
Better would then be to let the purchase through, even though their credit card details are blacklisted, but immediately or, with a short delay, VAC ban/disable the account afterwards.

Thus VALVe gets their money anyways, even if the cheater doesn't get their game.
A good idea would be to VAC flag the account, where VAC flagged credit card details was used, after first time the player plays on a VAC server.

Thus, the player never notices that its her CC details being triggering the VAC ban, which would be his first thought if he gets VAC banned even after never been on a VAC server (and orders a new card from his bank),

instead he thinks he has cheat traces left on the computer and reformats, and rebuys the game again (and gets VAC banned a third time due to VAC flagged CC details)


I also think we should take out VAC bans completely, and instead disabling accounts that are caught by VAC completely (cheating on VAC servers = no access to your games at all). The steam agreement contains a clause that allows them to do that, so its only a flip of a switch to do it.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:25 AM   #13
Tito Shivan
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastiannielse View Post
Ace42: "Payment system Blacklisting (cheaters can't simply rebuy games to resume cheating with)"


No, dont refuse the buy.
Better would then be to let the purchase through, even though their credit card details are blacklisted, but immediately or, with a short delay, VAC ban/disable the account afterwards.

Thus VALVe gets their money anyways, even if the cheater doesn't get their game.
A good idea would be to VAC flag the account, where VAC flagged credit card details was used, after first time the player plays on a VAC server.

Thus, the player never notices that its her CC details being triggering the VAC ban, which would be his first thought if he gets VAC banned even after never been on a VAC server (and orders a new card from his bank),

instead he thinks he has cheat traces left on the computer and reformats, and rebuys the game again (and gets VAC banned a third time due to VAC flagged CC details)


I also think we should take out VAC bans completely, and instead disabling accounts that are caught by VAC completely (cheating on VAC servers = no access to your games at all). The steam agreement contains a clause that allows them to do that, so its only a flip of a switch to do it.
Paypal, google checkout, prepaid credit cards....
There are tons of payment options to make your real CC details opaque to Valve.
Besides the fact of a CC info not necessarily identifies an user (what happens if i pay me and my son games with the same credit card and one of both cheat?)
Not to mention the legal aspects of letting you buy something and not granting you use of it...

And about banning a whole account... There would ve a lot of issues with companies (why you ban a player from MY game because he cheats on OTHER game?)
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito Shivan View Post
Paypal, google checkout, prepaid credit cards...
All involve rudimentary fraud protection mechanisms to avoid precisely this sort of exploitation.

Quote:
There are tons of payment options to make your real CC details opaque to Valve.
Which in no way shape or form stops these methods from being black-listed; and no doubt have methods instituted to prevent users circumventing blocks on trading systems.

Quote:
Besides the fact of a CC info not necessarily identifies an user (what happens if i pay me and my son games with the same credit card and one of both cheat?)
You stop inadvertently funding people to ruin games for everyone else and learn a valuable lesson about parental responsibility?

Quote:
Not to mention the legal aspects of letting you buy something and not granting you use of it...
There is no legal difference between implemented a VAC ban as per the license agreement from one count to another. The games can still be played by cheaters, just not on VAC secured servers - something that is spelled out on day one via the license agreement.

Quote:
And about banning a whole account... There would ve a lot of issues with companies (why you ban a player from MY game because he cheats on OTHER game?)
Which leaves these companies free to opt-out and go for Punk Buster; Valve don't get paid for VAC, it comes free with Steamworks, so they lose nothing if developers choose another anti-cheat system. However, providing a CREDIBLE anti-cheat system makes VAC more desirable for developers who DO want a cheat-free game, thus making it a BETTER enticement to those who DO want VAC integrated with their product.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:31 AM   #15
cylon
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by sebastiannielse View Post
No, dont refuse the buy.
Better would then be to let the purchase through, even though their credit card details are blacklisted, but immediately or, with a short delay, VAC ban/disable the account afterwards.

Thus VALVe gets their money anyways, even if the cheater doesn't get their game.
A good idea would be to VAC flag the account, where VAC flagged credit card details was used, after first time the player plays on a VAC server.
Oh wondeful idea.

Dad buys game for his kid or even for a neighbours kid because they game him cash and he said they could use their card. Then buys games for his own kids and himself and his wife.

Kid next door get his account hijacked and gets VAC banned. Suddenly all the next door neighbours are banned as well....??????
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