Bhop vs No Bhop Opinions

[urban360]

Does bhop wreck some of aspects of the game to you?

I ran across this explanation on drippy's 2fort's website. Best worded too and I agree %100 against bhop.

When the original Team Fortress mod came out (for simplicity, we will say for QuakeWorld - QWTF), it added a class based diversity to what was then a deathmatch/CTF only world. Suddenly, there was more to winning than whoever had the best point and click skills. It involved strategy. A soldier in a straight on fight with a HWGuy will lose, if they have equal skill. Yet, if the Soldier finds cover while reloading or between shots, this is suddenly a balanced fight. A medic can fight a heavier class by using his concs effectively, either by conc jumping past or using it to disrupt the enemy's aim. The bhop exploit (though some do not think it an exploit) did not become widely known until well after QWTF came out, and shortly after TFC was released. It exploits a quirk in the quake engine related to movement, so it applies to both QWTF and TFC (since QuakeWorld and Halflife are both based off of Quake 1). Valve's response was to limit the speed increase to 170% of your class limit. Yet, this still unbalanced the strategy between the classes. Any class moving had a distinct advantage. No soldier could find cover from a HW that suddenly reached the middle of a room, without turning their back to them. No compensation was made to SG's tracking, suddenly every class had it as easy as a scout in avoiding them. Medics no longer needed to think about how to get past a defense, and no longer needed team support, they can just bhop as fast as possible and fly through the room before any class there could respond. Any class hoping to keep up needed to bhop as well, which mutually excluded shooting at them. Hence, organized chokepoint defense became the rule versus unorganized random offense. In organized clan matches, though the game changed, but enough balance remained. For unorganized pub matches, however, a distinct change in gameplay towards the previously mentioned point and click happened. The bhop restriction is an attempt to retain the balance between the classes (including the class speed) regardless of who is attacking and who is defending.

I never like bhop for the same reason.

[OscarIsNeLul]

Originally Posted by urban360

Does bhop wreck some of aspects of the game to you?

I ran across this explanation on drippy's 2fort's website. Best worded too and I agree %100 against bhop.

I never like bhop for the same reason.

1) So bhop is an exploit, but they accept concjumps as a legitimate game mechanic? They know that concnades were never intended to be jumped with right?

2) Even with bhop a HW can never outrun any of the other classes. Even if it did, as soon as you start shooting you lose all speed so it's hardly useful for this class anyway. His job is still the same as it was in QWTF: sit on the flag and kill everything that gets into your flagroom. No movement tricks needed for that.

3) If a SG is build in the right spot no class can outrun them. Ofcourse if you just put it in the middle of a room every class can circlestrafe it, but that would be a stupid tactic anyway.
The only class that could possibly do it is the scout, but only if you're lucky and got a prefect bhop, otherwise the SG will always be faster. I wouldn't consider this unbalanced because it is the only class that can't kill a guarded SG.

4) Sometimes medics can do a solo run and cap a flag without a fight, but that usually only happens in AVI's. Most of the time you still have to kill defenders to create a hole for your teams scout, so he can fly in and out without a fight. Just like he did in QWTF already.

5) If a medic can take your flag before anyone can respond your defense just sucks. Keep in mind we only talk about bhop here, not concs. So how exactly can this medic outrun 2 or 3 FR defenders without being shot once?
The only way to do this is with concs, and you just said they are not an exploit right?

6) How is this "organized chokepoint defense" a bad thing? Implying that without bhop defenders would just run around all over your base?


And that is why this restriction is just bullsh*t. The only people who enjoy this are the ones who never play offense, and they think its unfair because they can't get easy kills anymore.




This game doesn't need a forced balance like this, because it can just balance itself. For example: back in 1998 you could just throw a conc at a HW and he was useless for 2 minutes. Then they discovered concaim and the scout became useless again. People then improved their conctricks to outrun the HW, but soldiers learned how to shoot a scout in midair. So the offense had to learn new tricks like bhop and rampslides so they are even harder to hit... etc

Eventually every class got some kind of advantage, but they all balanced eachother out. Take the bhop away and the HW and SG become overpowered killingmachines again.



Also, imagine if nobody ever discovered all this new tricks. You think we would still be playing this game after 12 years? Let me know in 12 years if people still play tf2, a game without bhop, movement tricks and forced balance rules...

[Gogeta]

Movement is a raw skill. The better you are the more it pays off. Without this and a few other movement mechanics, TFC would simply not be TFC.

It's not a 'quirk,' it's the simple principle that the game is run on a dimensional plane. If you move 1 unit straight, you move 1 unit. If you move 1 unit at a 45 degree angle, you move 1 unit, even though the 45 degree angle is actually a longer distance. What bhopping does is puts that 45 degree angle in a forward motion. The reason you have to jump is simply because there's friction.

This whole 'balanced/unbalanced' debate has gone on a VERY long time, and it's completely useless. Both teams have what ever option. It's not just about you vs who.

I'm sorry about being a pessimistic ♥♥♥♥♥♥bag, but I'm willing to bet you've never had a chance to play at a decent level of TFC where things like bhopping are so second nature to actual play that the game is a whole new world.

[diddykong111]

No. No restricting BHop. the guys above me have pretty much covered it. :P

[evil_master]

bunny hopping was addressed by VALVe in some updates, a large majority of the community either doesn't mind or doesn't care about bhop, it is open to ALL users and there are many [legal] scripts available to help you bhop, along with other useful jump techniques, if we still had the bhop we have back in TFC 1.5, I feel this conversation would be going in a different direction, but since VALVe already fixed bhop I feel that it has been accepted as a normal means of travel. I noticed problems in TFC with bunny hopping on my server, but instead of fixing it by killing off bunny hopping, I instead started to use a plugin developed by chicken from the pwndoras box community, so those who were not skilled enough could bunny hop just as easy as the others.

overall: I support bunny hopping, but I do not support modifying the speed limits.

[For$aKen]

You know the thing with bunnyhopping, concs, conc-aim and stuff is that it all raises the skill ceiling. And that's a good thing. Regardless wether or not they were once exploits/bugs in the engine/code... Players adapt. Good players want to adapt and they will gladly take everything the game throws at them and try to master it.
That's one of the reasons why TFC to date is still my favourite game even though I don't play it anymore.
The skill ceiling in this game is so damn high. There are so many things to learn and master, bunnyhopping being rather trivial in that regard.
This is also one of the reasons games nowadays fail to amaze me.

Of course baddies on the other side will always create a massive outcry about this kind of stuff.

But then I take a look back at how the pubscene of Fortress Forever was and I can't remember ANYONE complaining about bunnyhop because the game enabled players to easily do it themselves. At some point they even put the "hold space to perfectly time your jumps" script as a standart option into the game.
So as soon as everyone is able to do it, no one complains anymore. What does that tell us? Spoiled brats .

[robofish]

bhop is a abombmination. hws arent meant to fly around a map like scouts. it ruins the game and i for one will never use it and wont allow it on my server.

[Gogeta]

Originally Posted by robofish

bhop is a abombmination. hws arent meant to fly around a map like scouts. it ruins the game and i for one will never use it and wont allow it on my server.

You're kidding me right? Fly around like scouts?
A HW bhopping at full speed isn't even as fast as a scout NOT bhopping, let alone concing.

How does it ruin the game? Please tell me, I love hearing these sorts of things.

How long have you been playing?

[hughJ]

It's interesting that for all the complaints regarding class imbalance as a result of bhop, it probably did more to expand class variety than anything else, and in doing so it broke up a lot of the orthodoxy that was starting to settle on gameplay. After bhopping got capped, the game rapidly shifted back to medic-only offenses and much more predictable gameplay.

It was quite a cool period where you would regularly see people do things you maybe didn't even know were possible, and you could never cry foul and blame it on a hack the way you can with aim. If someone did something unbelievable, it probably meant they were just that good.

Having said all that, bhop is absolutely a game killer when it comes to maintaining an influx of grassroots/fresh players these days. High skill ceiling games are a shrinking niche and will only get smaller. I have a hard enough time playing NES/SNES games with youngsters whom immediately get frustrated with the concept of 'lives', 'continues', and 'game overs.'

[Omar - The Wire]

Truthfully, I didn't read this thread. Any of it, except for the gist of the OP's post (which unfortunately used Drippy's as a source).


I have one, infallible argument that is pro bunnyhopping:


Valve acknowledged the original exploit of bunny hopping in CS and TFC. They then removed it from CS completely and instituted a capped version in TFC. Their acknowledgement, varied response per game, and correction legitimized bunnyhopping. It went from "exploit" to "legitimate" the moment they, as the developers, instituted those changes.


The people who are anti-bunnyhopping are always people who can't do it, won't do it, or decline to get good at the game but don't want their enjoyment ruined by people who do.

[NyRoNiC]

does OP know what math is? 170% of a classes speed, meaning it affects all classes equally. HWguys cannot go as fast as Scouts. If people were not able to bhop around or conc jump, nobody would ever cap the flag unless the defense was non existent or completely dumb.

You act like bhopping is an aimbot, and only hackers can do it. ANYONE can bhop. ANYONE can conc jump, ANYONE can concaim, etc. Just because someone is better than you at various aspects of the game doesn't make it "cheap" or "unfair". Because ANYONE can do it, and you don't need scripts to hacks to do it.

Please go play TF2 if this game is too hard for you.

[Ancient1]

TBH I bunny hop like I breath, its second nature and I dont know if I could play the game anymore without bunny hopping.

I remember the early days of WON, before anyone had worked out how to bunny hop, that you could get extra speed by wall straffing, so everyone would run everywhere sliding along the walls!

Slowely the bunny hop was learnt, and it moved from simple straight line speed, to what we know today.

However I do feel it can be a game breaker. It certainly was in the later days of WON. There were alot of elite players who would join a server, totally dominate it, the server would empty and then they would leave, wrecking the game.

The game was made with alot of things that were not meant to happen, but they did, and still do in some cases. See the thread that lists TFC Bugs.

Bunny hopping I feel is perfect at the current level of speed capping. When it was uncapped, before 1.0.0.9 if I remember right, I think 1.0.0.6 was the last version without a speed cap, then it did get a little silly. Especially on large maps, where a conc or nade jump could see you go from one end to the other in seconds.

I still like the uncapped speed on some AVD maps and some CTF maps, for fun reasons, such as Palermo. But no real need for totally uncapped speed if Im honest.

Its been so long now that expecting the game to be anything other than what it is now, is unrealistic. Drippy's anti-bunnyhop server is fine for those who dont know how to bunny hop, and cant be bothered to learn, at least it evens the skill up for them I guess. If thats your thing, then thats cool by me!

Ancient

[urban360]

Originally Posted by OscarIsNeLul

1) So bhop is an exploit, but they accept concjumps as a legitimate game mechanic? They know that concnades were never intended to be jumped with right?

2) Even with bhop a HW can never outrun any of the other classes. Even if it did, as soon as you start shooting you lose all speed so it's hardly useful for this class anyway. His job is still the same as it was in QWTF: sit on the flag and kill everything that gets into your flagroom. No movement tricks needed for that.

3) If a SG is build in the right spot no class can outrun them. Ofcourse if you just put it in the middle of a room every class can circlestrafe it, but that would be a stupid tactic anyway.
The only class that could possibly do it is the scout, but only if you're lucky and got a prefect bhop, otherwise the SG will always be faster. I wouldn't consider this unbalanced because it is the only class that can't kill a guarded SG.

4) Sometimes medics can do a solo run and cap a flag without a fight, but that usually only happens in AVI's. Most of the time you still have to kill defenders to create a hole for your teams scout, so he can fly in and out without a fight. Just like he did in QWTF already.

5) If a medic can take your flag before anyone can respond your defense just sucks. Keep in mind we only talk about bhop here, not concs. So how exactly can this medic outrun 2 or 3 FR defenders without being shot once?
The only way to do this is with concs, and you just said they are not an exploit right?

6) How is this "organized chokepoint defense" a bad thing? Implying that without bhop defenders would just run around all over your base?


And that is why this restriction is just bullsh*t. The only people who enjoy this are the ones who never play offense, and they think its unfair because they can't get easy kills anymore.




This game doesn't need a forced balance like this, because it can just balance itself. For example: back in 1998 you could just throw a conc at a HW and he was useless for 2 minutes. Then they discovered concaim and the scout became useless again. People then improved their conctricks to outrun the HW, but soldiers learned how to shoot a scout in midair. So the offense had to learn new tricks like bhop and rampslides so they are even harder to hit... etc

Eventually every class got some kind of advantage, but they all balanced eachother out. Take the bhop away and the HW and SG become overpowered killingmachines again.



Also, imagine if nobody ever discovered all this new tricks. You think we would still be playing this game after 12 years? Let me know in 12 years if people still play tf2, a game without bhop, movement tricks and forced balance rules...

The difference between conc jumps and bhop is ammo. Conc jumping is bound to grenade ammo. Bhop is not. Only usage limit bhop has is how ever long your finger can run on the keyboard.

SG's placed in the right spot can trump a bhopper. But verry little compensation was made to the SG tracking underpowering the SG in some areas on some maps

My only real beef with bhop is it being used in small games 6v6 or smaller especially on maps with a broad amount of routs and lots of larg open space with a lot of things to take cover behind. In small games of dustbowl bhoppers just breeze right through defense almost every time like nothing almost guaranteeing attackers win vs a larger game with a lot of people to cover all the grounds.

An other example is on epicenter. Ever played it where it became a scout race with the flag(this was w/o bhop btw) concing all the way to the capture point bypassing all the SGs faster than they can track 80% of the time? Bhop would only make that worse. The rapid capture causing rapid round restart where everyone is respawned causing the game to go too fast where no other players couldn't do much of anything because in about 1 minute from respawning everything resets thus killing the game because everyone got bored and leaves..

Granted bhop and conc is a skill. But there are scenarios where use of bhop literally kills the game for the rest.

Originally Posted by NyRoNiC

does OP know what math is? 170% of a classes speed, meaning it affects all classes equally. HWguys cannot go as fast as Scouts. If people were not able to bhop around or conc jump, nobody would ever cap the flag unless the defense was non existent or completely dumb.

You act like bhopping is an aimbot, and only hackers can do it. ANYONE can bhop. ANYONE can conc jump, ANYONE can concaim, etc. Just because someone is better than you at various aspects of the game doesn't make it "cheap" or "unfair". Because ANYONE can do it, and you don't need scripts to hacks to do it.

Please go play TF2 if this game is too hard for you.

Originally Posted by Gogeta

You're kidding me right? Fly around like scouts?
A HW bhopping at full speed isn't even as fast as a scout NOT bhopping, let alone concing.

How does it ruin the game? Please tell me, I love hearing these sorts of things.

How long have you been playing?

I don't think HW bhopping as fast as a scout runs was meant so literal. Even though bhop speed is 170% of the class speed, you might as well call it almost as fast as a scout runs if you round 1.7 to the nearest whole number because thats how close bhop is to double speed. Lets face the fact that bhop trumps all... but not so much in games with a lot more people.

[Sinnah]

Originally Posted by NyRoNiC

You act like bhopping is an aimbot, and only hackers can do it. ANYONE can bhop. ANYONE can conc jump, ANYONE can concaim, etc. Just because someone is better than you at various aspects of the game doesn't make it "cheap" or "unfair". Because ANYONE can do it, and you don't need scripts to hacks to do it.

Exactly how I feel about it, too. It amazes me how many people, still to this day, will jump right to accusations of hacking and scripting and exploiting whenever they encounter someone who knows how to bunnyhop. They simply cannot comprehend that it's a legitimate skillset that can be learned, practiced and perfected, just like any other aspect of the game.

It stems from that misconception that learning how to hop (and in fact, the only means of bunnyhopping) is as simple as installing the right script and off you go. The fact is, there is no magic script that makes you a good hopper (particularly true now that _special is no longer allowed on pretty much any server). You still have to time your jumps and your strafing and mouse movements properly to be effective at it. That's something that takes time and practice, just like anything else.

And you don't need scripts to be able to learn that (although they certainly do help).

So why is bunnyhop for some reason considered less of a legitimate game play mechanic than, say, learning how to speed snipe or concaim? Why is it perfectly acceptable to bind a key to det your dispenser as an engineer but it's an "exploit" to bind +jump to my mousewheel as a medic? And most importantly why are people still getting all up in arms over this stuff in 2012?

[Dinosaur Gas]

Like Gogeta said, this argument has gone on for 10+ years. When Valve decided to cap bhop, and not remove it, they legitimized the tactic.

The basics behind the argument remain the same to this day. 99% of those who are against bhop cannot do it, and thus want things brought back down to their level. People can argue this all day long, regardless of what they say it remains true. When I ran my servers with bhop disabled, this was readily apparent. Then I enabled bhop and most adapted to it, while those who lacked the coordination and reaction time complained, then moved on to other servers.

When presented with a public server where half the people cannot bhop, of course it seems overpowered. Watch a video of a high level match where everyone can bhop, and you'll see that it just adds another dimension of skill to an already great game.