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Old 03-21-2012, 10:33 AM   #1
buchengshi
 
 
 
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They *really* nerfed dagger smithing

Boring background story:

I'm not one of those people who max out alchemy, smithing, and enchanting to get uber gear - then do my first quest. Instead I keep all of the daggers I loot, waiting for an item with banish to show up (which won't happen before level 22), then enchant them to level enchanting. So last night I ran out of daggers. No problem, I have nearly 700 iron I've been sitting on. I crawl my way over to the forge and get to work...

Nearly 700 daggers got me to the mid 60s in smithing. It takes >20 daggers to get a skillup now, and that's with Warrior Stone and Well Rested. Pretty big change from before, where I think it would have taken 5 or 6 at this level.

Mind you, I'm not complaining. Just pointing out just how much more work it is now. Maybe people will start making something else between iron daggers and Daedric armor.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:37 AM   #2
alehm
 
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If you smithed other things than daggers you would have leveled up more quickly. That is the point of the change.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:44 AM   #3
keiskay2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buchengshi View Post
Boring background story:

I'm not one of those people who max out alchemy, smithing, and enchanting to get uber gear - then do my first quest. Instead I keep all of the daggers I loot, waiting for an item with banish to show up (which won't happen before level 22), then enchant them to level enchanting. So last night I ran out of daggers. No problem, I have nearly 700 iron I've been sitting on. I crawl my way over to the forge and get to work...

Nearly 700 daggers got me to the mid 60s in smithing. It takes >20 daggers to get a skillup now, and that's with Warrior Stone and Well Rested. Pretty big change from before, where I think it would have taken 5 or 6 at this level.

Mind you, I'm not complaining. Just pointing out just how much more work it is now. Maybe people will start making something else between iron daggers and Daedric armor.
if you smith an item of high value you will shoot up a lot in smithing now. its like alchemy now.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:18 AM   #4
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It seems now the best approach would be Dwarven Bows. Considering how much dwemer metal you can find in the dwemer ruins... is insane.

But anyway, I kind of like the change (I'm already 100 smithing so I don't care right now, LOL), just like Alchemy works, it takes a very long time to level up, and it depends on the value of the potions you create.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:50 AM   #5
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The things used to be is known as an 'exploit' -- taking advantage of a flaw in the game system. That loophole, while not actually fixed, is at least shrunk.

Many people complained that smithing was too exploitable. It's still quite exploitable, just not as easy. At some point, you should ask yourself if it wouldn't just be less tedious to use the console to increase your smithing skill. No one else cares about what you do in your game, since it's single player, so you may as well do that. Same effect, less time, less grinding boredom.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:54 AM   #6
Juonar
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Haldur View Post
Same effect, less time, less grinding boredom.
I don't get it why someone would grind mats in the game like this. I find a lot of ore and skins through out my journeys.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:49 PM   #7
KaosPropeht
 
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Originally Posted by Haldur View Post
The things used to be is known as an 'exploit' -- taking advantage of a flaw in the game system. That loophole, while not actually fixed, is at least shrunk.

Many people complained that smithing was too exploitable. It's still quite exploitable, just not as easy. At some point, you should ask yourself if it wouldn't just be less tedious to use the console to increase your smithing skill. No one else cares about what you do in your game, since it's single player, so you may as well do that. Same effect, less time, less grinding boredom.
Doesn't 'feel' as pure, though. The time and grinding spent, plus the idea that you did it entirely through in-game/in-world* mechanics (albeit through exploiting them) lends a sense of accomplishment to the task that you don't get through just using console-command for the same effect.

*Certain interpretations of lore notwithstanding...
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:06 AM   #8
Haldur
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by KaosPropeht View Post
Doesn't 'feel' as pure, though. The time and grinding spent, plus the idea that you did it entirely through in-game/in-world* mechanics (albeit through exploiting them) lends a sense of accomplishment to the task that you don't get through just using console-command for the same effect.
I actually see both ways as cheating, but it's a single player game, so if one way bothers you, don't do that of course. For me, both methods are equal. that said, I DID play one game like that, just to see what other people were talking about, and it just wasn't fun for me, mostly because at high levels, the game got boring.

Running around with maxed AC is not that fun (one of the reasons why I'm going the cloth/pure spell route in my current game). There's very little reason for my current character to select ANY perks for smithing.

Maybe there ought to be a mod that determines which perk you get randomly from all that is available (that's kind of inspired by the game Dungeons of Dredmor -- they give you the option of selecting your skills randomly, which can make the game significantly harder).
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:40 PM   #9
KaosPropeht
 
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Originally Posted by Haldur View Post
I actually see both ways as cheating, but it's a single player game, so if one way bothers you, don't do that of course. For me, both methods are equal. that said, I DID play one game like that, just to see what other people were talking about, and it just wasn't fun for me, mostly because at high levels, the game got boring.

Running around with maxed AC is not that fun (one of the reasons why I'm going the cloth/pure spell route in my current game). There's very little reason for my current character to select ANY perks for smithing.
Heh. There's a segment of the powergamer demographic who can't seem to help themselves, and when they minmax their character to OP levels and get bored they blame the designers for having made it possible (through in-game means.)

There's also an interpretation of the background lore (regarding chim) that suggests messing with the console commands/cheats does fit into the gameworld... though only one canon character is known to have achieved that capability.

Last edited by KaosPropeht: 03-24-2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: oops, broke quote tag
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Old 04-01-2012, 02:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaosPropeht View Post
Doesn't 'feel' as pure, though. The time and grinding spent, plus the idea that you did it entirely through in-game/in-world* mechanics (albeit through exploiting them) lends a sense of accomplishment to the task that you don't get through just using console-command for the same effect.
Yeah, I'd agree. In many games I've found a way of improving a skill, raising levels or gaining XP by doing something repeatedly and it doesn't feel like cheating, like using a cheat code would. It's practice and experience.

A world-class concert pianist practices at home alone. He doesn't just improve his skills while playing in front of a live audience. And that requires dedication to a tedious grind. He doesn't just play "doh, a deer, a female deer..." over and over and over agin. He has to challenge himself to improve through greater complexity.

This is my first run through Skyrim and I'm not doing Smithing so it doesn't matter, but I think the change is a good thing. Once you have achieved the ability to make Meisterwerk daggers, you are just really good at making ornate, exceptional quality daggers. No reason that you should have any skill at all in making swords, axes or armour. And with the diminishing returns, there's no real improvement in your skill at making daggers by repeatedly making daggers once you are a Master Daggersmith.

To improve your Smithing skill beyond making superb daggers, you have to learn to smelt larger quantities of quality ore, forge larger volumes of quality metal, shape and temper and polish larger and more ornate weapons and armour. Then you need to learn to work with different metals, making carbon steel instead of Iron, using Elven or Dwarvish mithril instead of fine steel, smelting and forging glass, oriculum (or whatever that Orcish material is called), adamantium and ebony, refining ebony into daedric etc. Then crafting delicate objects made from silver and gold and inlaying them with precious stones and gems and creating objects fit for high level enchanting.

You can't learn all that by making iron daggers over and over and over again. It's Smithing, not Blacksmithing. You don't just make iron horse shoes, nails and daggers. You have to become an Amourer, a swordsmith, a steel smith, an ebonysmith, a silversmith, goldsmith etc. All exceptionally complex and quite different skill sets.

BAH! All the way to 100 Master Level on iron daggers!

I don't mean to be diadactic, but it's Role-play, not Roll-play and every mechanic should have a logical in-game reason and the character should get meaningful experience to earn his perks.


Cheers

~

Last edited by Shadowblade001: 04-01-2012 at 02:41 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:54 AM   #11
Seph64
 
 
 
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I guess an easy way to level smithing without changing recipes would be to make a mod that increases the worth of Iron Daggers to about 200G or so.

Luckily for me, my Smithing on my main is already at 100. It's about 79 on my current character.

It's gonna suck for any future characters though.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:07 PM   #12
frost b1te
 
 
 
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Dammit! I never asked for this..

Fortunately all my characters have 100 smithing already and I'm not going to start a new game anytime soon.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:21 PM   #13
JP_Russell
 
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you could just use transmute to turn all that iron ore into silver and gold ore instead of iron ingots and make tons of high-value jewelry.
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:05 PM   #14
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Heh, I already dagger spammed my way up. So I'm fine XD
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:11 PM   #15
jmurdock1417
 
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Jewelry might be the way to go after update.
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