Go Back   Steam Users' Forums > Xbox 360 & Playstation 3 Game Discussions > The Orange Box

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-07-2012, 04:30 PM   #1
HARVESTERFTW
 
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Reputation: 3
Posts: 13
Post A console player's last log

Let me just say, that as an Orange Box player myself, I sympathize with you guys. I've moved to PC after tasting the PC version and though I like it better, some just prefer consoles. That's okay, there are many pros to consoles. You don't have to read system requirements, it doesn't cost 200 dollars a year for a graphics card, and couch + 18 inch HDTV with surround sound beats computer chair + 15 inch LCD monitor. And while KB+M may be more accurate, WASD isn't that comfortable for some, and you may prefer the comforts of four face buttons and an analog stick.

Anyways, I wanted updates for the longest time. I scoured Google every day, searching for "TF2 360 update" and hit every hopeful link, thinking maybe, just MAYBE, they came through for us. That was back in '07 and '08. '09 was dead. Might have been a bit of hope, but it was clear that the PC was leaving us behind. I still only had a 360 at the time, and played the h--- out of cp_dustbowl into the wee hours of the night, and I remember the fun I had. Shooting through the gates, making due without airblasts, taking down level 3 sentries the hard way, and getting the occasional Zero-G server. There was no Demoknight, there was no Robin Hood sniper, just vanilla TF2. I remember checking the Wiki every day and salivating at the weapons,maps, and mods that PC players took for granted, not knowing (or perhaps caring) that we console players desired them so badly. I pretty much sat on the sidelines as new content rolled in, sad, yet at the same time grateful that we had TF2 in the first place.

Now, the game is pretty much a desert. You can find a few games going, but after owning the PC version, it's really hard to adjust to not having the comforts we enjoy on the PC. No Jarate, no moving buildings, and level 3 teleporters, dispensers, no bugfixes, and no voice commands (at least, without hacking.)

Before this seems like a memoir that's gone on too long, let me get to the meat of the story:

Many have mentioned it already, but it's IMPOSSIBLE. I-M-P-O-S-S-I-B-L-E to get the updates we crave.
Size of TF2 on disk= ~10616 MB.
Fit THAT on a 256 MB memory card. Unlike the PS3 or PC, an Xbox 360 does not come with a hard drive by default on some models, so you cannot guarantee that everybody would be able to download the content, and no, you can't "not download it" because to keep compatibility, EVERYBODY would have the content, it would be locked for those who _didn't pay for it_ (no free updates, remember?) so a title update would be needed to INCLUDE said content so that non-haves can play with haves.

Second, all weapons must be checked in RAM. That means for every shot, a check for weapon type, bullet effects, weapon model, weapon texture, sound... yeah, you get the idea. And add 16 players with different weapons (not to mention hats and other misc items) and it becomes a mess even on PC. Even without hats, it's still a lot. Not to mention new dialogue, which needs to be called an played, and all the maps that need to be stored...

It is quite simply TOO MUCH for the 256 MB (PS3 ram, even with CELL processing it's hard to manage) and 512 MB (That was the original MINIMUM requirement, now most recommend at least 1 GB RAM to even run it with all the general tomfoolery that's been added now.)

Third, it simply could not be patched to the degree you want. As said before, Valve's ideals and Sony and Microsoft's business practices differ too greatly. Sony and MS want control over their system and what gets put on their servers (Who doesn't?) and Valve wants things to be a bi freer.

Before somebody jumps down my throat defending the DLC practices, saying I am a Valve Hammer Legion Member, let me say this: BOTH are at fault. Valve needs to face the fact that they play by other rules on consoles. They should have sucked it up,and maybe we wouldn't have been in this mess in the first place. MS and Sony need to loosen up,and may find that allowing Devs to connect to their own servers might actually ease the load and cost them less money. We clear?

Sorry for typing an essay, but I wanted to share my feelings on the matter.

TL;DR---
UPDATES AIN'T HAPPENING. No "Gold edition" or update can fix this game. Not a digital re-release, no petition, no email spam, no nice letters. At this point, it is not profitable nor practical, so enjoy it while you have it, or get a PC and play the new version. It's the incredibly sad and heart-wrenching truth, but I felt I needed to type this. This is one of the best communities I've seen for a simpleconsole shooter, and I'm sad to see it fall so far from where it should be.

Last edited by HARVESTERFTW: 04-07-2012 at 04:36 PM.
HARVESTERFTW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2012, 07:13 PM   #2
Chill Dude
 
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Reputation: 225
Posts: 1,265
It's a bad thing , but then it isn't always bad. I love to play the console version from time to time . Don't have to worry about all of the different situations that can occur with all of those extra weapons. Especially dont have to worry about stupid scouts jumping up the man hole on 2fort with a force-a-nature , man I hate that.

Anyways , some vanilla tf2 is always fun. Real test of skill in tf2 , unlike the pc version , where the person with better weapons will most likely win.


(For some odd reason I feel like the upcoming minecraft xbox edition will become like tf2 , left behind in the pc versions dust.)
Chill Dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 10:45 AM   #3
HARVESTERFTW
 
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Reputation: 3
Posts: 13
While I may disagree with you on the weapons, I must agree that vanilla TF2 is refreshing every once in a while, although it does seem to be on its last legs.

And Minecraft will most likely go the way of the Orange Box, because the ideology between MS and Mojang are so completely different (Mojang = lifetime free updates, gee, similarity?) that we're going to have yet another update fiasco.

Or, Microsoft could lighten up and allow Mojang to update how they feel, because the last thing MS wants is bad press and an inferior version of a very popular game.
HARVESTERFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 02:07 AM   #4
Mogh
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Reputation: 572
Posts: 3,469
They still could and should have given us bug fixes. The amount of glitches and exploits in the console versions is ridiculous. That's the only thing that's really unacceptable for me.
I would also really have liked a map pack, and that would have been technically possible too. I guess you could say that would have split the community, but I think it wouldn't have been that bad, people would have gone back to the old maps once the newness of the DLC maps wore off.
But of course I realise that console TF2 will forever remain in the state it is in now, any chance we had of updates is long gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Dude View Post
Anyways , some vanilla tf2 is always fun. Real test of skill in tf2 , unlike the pc version , where the person with better weapons will most likely win.
Hm, I can see how you would think that, but actually most unlocks are situational/sidegrades. Stock weapons are still the best bet in most situations (with the exception of melee).
Mogh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 06:45 AM   #5
Pvt.TwinkleToes
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Reputation: 22
Posts: 93
CalviNNatioN here!

I agree that it is both MS and Valves fault but I put way more of the blame on Valves end. TF2 is my favorite game of any system even with all its bull .

BUT!

Valve took like 15 years to make it and its a sad show to see that many glitches upon release. Mogh is right, why didnt we see bug fixes? They updated like 4 times and each one was total crap. I remember they fixed a few small bugs but somehow made it so medics and dispensers healed like 2X slower. Then an update came 2 weeks later putting it back to normal. That was a WTF moment.

Then we get no update till july 2009 which gives us class limits which no one wanted, damage spread which no one wanted and the ability to disable crits, and get rid of hackers. NOOOOOO BUG FIXES! That was a major, major slap in the face. That tells me that valve probably didnt even know we had all these bugs. And after that update, pretty much everyones Crouch button gets reset every time they load up. What in the Heck went wrong there valve?

And finally the map pack idea. They had always complained about how MS makes them charge for updates, but who really gave a ! We all were screaming for a ten dollar map pack. They kept going on and on about how they never want to charge for updates and that it would be a slap in the face to us. But they were totally lying, they didnt want to do it cause they were lazy. If they really wanted to do it, they would have realized that hey, these guys look like they will actually pay for it, we dont need it to be free.

It was all just a ploy to have an excuse not to do it.

Dont even get me started about the Blog Updates!

If I got a chance to meet those guys from valve, I would have a major major word with them.

Last edited by Pvt.TwinkleToes: 04-10-2012 at 06:47 AM.
Pvt.TwinkleToes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 11:38 AM   #6
HARVESTERFTW
 
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Reputation: 3
Posts: 13
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvt.TwinkleToes View Post
CalviNNatioN here!

I agree that it is both MS and Valves fault but I put way more of the blame on Valves end. TF2 is my favorite game of any system even with all its bull .

BUT!

Valve took like 15 years to make it and its a sad show to see that many glitches upon release. Mogh is right, why didnt we see bug fixes? They updated like 4 times and each one was total crap. I remember they fixed a few small bugs but somehow made it so medics and dispensers healed like 2X slower. Then an update came 2 weeks later putting it back to normal. That was a WTF moment.

Then we get no update till july 2009 which gives us class limits which no one wanted, damage spread which no one wanted and the ability to disable crits, and get rid of hackers. NOOOOOO BUG FIXES! That was a major, major slap in the face. That tells me that valve probably didnt even know we had all these bugs. And after that update, pretty much everyones Crouch button gets reset every time they load up. What in the Heck went wrong there valve?

And finally the map pack idea. They had always complained about how MS makes them charge for updates, but who really gave a ! We all were screaming for a ten dollar map pack. They kept going on and on about how they never want to charge for updates and that it would be a slap in the face to us. But they were totally lying, they didnt want to do it cause they were lazy. If they really wanted to do it, they would have realized that hey, these guys look like they will actually pay for it, we dont need it to be free.

It was all just a ploy to have an excuse not to do it.

Dont even get me started about the Blog Updates!

If I got a chance to meet those guys from valve, I would have a major major word with them.
I can completely understand your frustration, and must emphasize my point that Valve needs to realize that on other platforms they play by other rules, and console gamers are willing to pay money if they feel the content is worth it. Bugfixes should have happened anyways. There really is no excuse for that other than laziness. Valve, as much as I love you and your games, that was just pure laziness at it's worst.

This whole situation was a mish-mash of good, bad, and dumb decisions clashing with another company's good, bad, and dumb decisions.
HARVESTERFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 02:31 PM   #7
Mincegamer
 
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Reputation: 439
Posts: 1,305
Pvt.TwinkleToes/CalviNNatioN, I agree with you completely. I only got TF2 in summer of 2010, but even from then I've gotten tons of enjoyment out of the game. I basically stopped playing last year when I couldn't find any good servers that weren't laggy. (and I just got tired of it, I also played so many games on Dustbowl last year! ). It's a shame to hear that the community has only gotten more inactive from then.

And it's an even bigger shame that VALVe is doing this exact same crap to another game, Left 4 Dead 2... of course I won't say anything bad about that game because I have played it more than any other game this generation, it is my #1 game, and even if I haven't gotten quite as addicted to TF2, I'll play L4D2 forever. Cold Stream is the beginning of the end. It will never come out on the Xbox 360.

I can see myself two years from now, telling future gamers about my time on L4D2: "And they brought out the DLC, and then there was one patch that did nothing but fix the door on the No Mercy crescendo... and then we waited for months, and months, and months. We sat and started at the bug fixes rolling out on the PC version, and the ported maps. We asked repeatedly on Twitter, on the forums, and through email, but Cold Stream never came. Reminds me of a little game called TF2..."
Mincegamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 09:12 PM   #8
Rodney Swan
 
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Reputation: 49
Posts: 434
Most of us realize that updates won't be delivered, but some don't know why. It's quite easy to blame and throw names around without any back up, so thanks. Thanks for bothering again with such a post, I believe it sums most things up.

While alternating on both platforms, I started playing on the PC a year ago. As Mogh said, those weapons are very situational and default load-outs are always better. At least for me.

I wish I could turn my Xbox on and pop The Orange Box again. Sadly, my disc is destroyed, and I've been having a hard time getting another one. I'll manage, though.

Even if the game couldn't get patched to the degree we wanted, it could have been patched. Nothing was stopping Valve from fixing little things. At all. I believe this was said on previous posts.

This is what we have left, anyway. But I don't hold a grudge against these people anymore. I believe I'm way over this issue, but out of this mess I can rescue a couple of things. This was the first videogame based community I was ever part of. I watched how it slowly died with time, and how some people were persistent about bringing it down too, but it's alright. Everything's pretty relaxed now.

I want to play TF2 on my Xbox, again. I hope I'm able to, soon.

Last edited by Rodney Swan: 04-28-2012 at 09:17 PM.
Rodney Swan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 04:38 AM   #9
Mincegamer
 
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Reputation: 439
Posts: 1,305
They definitely could have patched it. Whatever reasons they had for not doing so, no matter how stupid and unreasonable, do not hide the fact that they only patched the 360 version four times. There is nothing stopping a developer from patching a game MORE THAN FOUR TIMES, I'm not even sure what the limit is (or if there is a limit).

PC players always proclaim VALVe as the "lord of free content and patches", and yet their other fanbase (which is just as large as the PC fanbase overall) knows them as the big mean company that would never provide more than four tiny patches to their game. How is that, in any way, excusable?

Sorry to hear your disc was broken Rodney Swan. The game isn't too expensive though to get another copy. One thing about the game though, at least they didn't block all modding when they did the last patch. Mods are still possible, and I believe we have quite a few modders here making their custom game modes and even working on custom maps. Don't you just love it when a few modders are doing VALVe's job better than them?
Mincegamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 10:18 PM   #10
relaxeder
 
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Reputation: 1630
Posts: 2,790
I think Valve should have given the XBOX 360 players something for their patience, instead of leaving them out to dry for so long. Yeah, its unreasonable to expect at this point for them to get anything near what the Steam community has gotten, but some core bug fixes, basic gameplay additions like the new teleports and dispensers, and maybe a few new maps would have been good. I don't play the XBOX 360 version anymore so I don't really care, but yeah.
relaxeder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2012, 04:13 AM   #11
Chronon
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Reputation: 0
Posts: 194
Microsoft should pay Valve to update TF2 and release it digitally for free to get tons of more users to play FPS games on 360.

Ok just a stupid opinion, nothing else =P
Chronon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2012, 01:10 PM   #12
Mincegamer
 
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Reputation: 439
Posts: 1,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxeder View Post
I think Valve should have given the XBOX 360 players something for their patience, instead of leaving them out to dry for so long. Yeah, its unreasonable to expect at this point for them to get anything near what the Steam community has gotten, but some core bug fixes, basic gameplay additions like the new teleports and dispensers, and maybe a few new maps would have been good. I don't play the XBOX 360 version anymore so I don't really care, but yeah.
So did you use to be an active poster around here then? How does it feel knowing that VALVe really did let us down? Or I suppose it's not a big deal to you, since you play the PC version .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronon View Post
Microsoft should pay Valve to update TF2 and release it digitally for free to get tons of more users to play FPS games on 360.

Ok just a stupid opinion, nothing else =P
Yeah.
Chances of Microsoft paying VALVe: 0
Chances of VALVe updating TF2 on Xbox: 0
Chances of VALVe re-releasing TF2: 0
Chances of Microsoft allowing free games on Xbox: 0
Chances of more FPS gamers on Xbox: As long as bland FPS games like Call of Duty continue to sell, 100.
Mincegamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2012, 09:16 AM   #13
purceywise
 
Join Date: May 2009
Reputation: 22
Posts: 36
LOL

I really do love the stupidity of some people...

Size of the game and RAM limitations mean nothing. Not one thing.

Have you even heard of optimization? Its quite a big thing, some game designers make use of it. It allows you to release a single game across multiple machines making best use of the hardware available on each console.

As a really REALLY simple contrast think of Mortal Kombat 1. This game was ported from the Arcade to the Amiga / PC, GameGear / GameBoy and the SNES / Megadrive. The same game each time but developed differently to cater for the hardware.

Want to cut down on size? You strip the less needed stuff out. You down mix audio, you lower resolutions, you double up on textures, you lower animation. There is so much which can be done to lower the size of the total space.

As for Memory, this is just as laughable. Plenty of games handle the same if not more. If it gets too much then remove some of the unnecessary. Surely this is development 101?!

I used to be quite an avid player on the Xbox but I moved over to PC a while ago as its hard sometimes finding a full match on the xbox without some cheating gits running riot (not that its any better with "pay to win" on the PC servers..). There are so many forums posts / guides / reg files based on getting this beast of a game working on really low end technology, do you honestly believe that a big company like Valve would be unable to do this?!

The simple fact is - there is no real reason for Valve to update the game. The player base is too low as is the pay off. Its a shame, because I too was someone who scoured the web daily for news on the update. I accepted fate and have moved on with my life accepting the Xbox game for what it is. A tiny slice of vanilla heaven.
purceywise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 11:14 AM   #14
HARVESTERFTW
 
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Reputation: 3
Posts: 13
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by purceywise View Post
LOL

I really do love the stupidity of some people...

Size of the game and RAM limitations mean nothing. Not one thing.

Have you even heard of optimization? Its quite a big thing, some game designers make use of it. It allows you to release a single game across multiple machines making best use of the hardware available on each console.

As a really REALLY simple contrast think of Mortal Kombat 1. This game was ported from the Arcade to the Amiga / PC, GameGear / GameBoy and the SNES / Megadrive. The same game each time but developed differently to cater for the hardware.

Want to cut down on size? You strip the less needed stuff out. You down mix audio, you lower resolutions, you double up on textures, you lower animation. There is so much which can be done to lower the size of the total space.

As for Memory, this is just as laughable. Plenty of games handle the same if not more. If it gets too much then remove some of the unnecessary. Surely this is development 101?!

I used to be quite an avid player on the Xbox but I moved over to PC a while ago as its hard sometimes finding a full match on the xbox without some cheating gits running riot (not that its any better with "pay to win" on the PC servers..). There are so many forums posts / guides / reg files based on getting this beast of a game working on really low end technology, do you honestly believe that a big company like Valve would be unable to do this?!
Instead of calling us stupid for understanding the limitations of a platform compared to the requirements of the software you want ported, you could... do some research, maybe?

Doing all that can only get you so far. Let's see... list of weapons...
Wow... that's quite a lot of unique textures, animations, and sound. All those particles, too. Oh, right, the character voices too! and all their animations and textures!
Huh... now for items... yeah, not even going to bother counting all the hats, misc items, and other do-dads.

That all takes up physical space on a hard drive. Oh, wait... NOT ALL 360's HAVE HARD DRIVES. DURHURRR. Sure you could cut it, but even if you got rid of the hats and items, that still means you have all those weapons... oh... you could cut those too, but you are then just left with vanilla. Which is fine, but I think most would prefer to have some new content besides maps...
Oh wait... maps... those big things that take up a lot of space, right? Wow, there sure are a lot of maps! Better cut those too!
Oh... we're right back down to vanilla... the same game with some bugfixes.

And yes, RAM is a BIG problem. Minimum requirements, 512 MB. Whoops, that's the 360's RAM. Half the recommended. You'd need to cut a lot to make it fit.

This is different than porting MK to the Gameboy, when most were willing to sacrifice graphics and sound, and even basic playability to have a game at home. Now, people expect a full experience, and an extremely watered down TF2 is not what most want.

Last edited by HARVESTERFTW: 07-01-2012 at 11:25 AM.
HARVESTERFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 08:32 PM   #15
KKiONI
 
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Reputation: 6
Posts: 109
@purceywise: I do agree with your points on optimization, however, I don't think Valve is the company that generally likes doing specific optimization per console. I know with Portal 2 they had to do some major optimization in order to meet the performance quota on the consoles. But I believe this optimization took place across all three versions rather than each one. So I wouldn't say that they don't know how.
The PC version is also much more flexible than the console counterparts. On the PC, all game files are present on the machine which means updates can add, remove, and modify files at its will. On the console, only patches can be applied and the core game files on the disc will remain intact.
Think of it like this: updating the PC version is like molding a piece of clay as you have total control over how to shape it, while updating the console version is like putting a cloth on a table: you modified the table, but it's still the same table underneath.

Also patching can only work to some extent. Since the disc files cannot be changed, you need to redirect functions elsewhere or disable them completely, therefore taking up more processing power in computing these activities and conditions.
KKiONI is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Steam Users' Forums > Xbox 360 & Playstation 3 Game Discussions > The Orange Box


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site Content Copyright Valve Corporation 1998-2014, All Rights Reserved.