King Tiger vs. Abrams

[gp556by45]

The round fired out of the Abrams main gun, the M256, is called the M829A3, and will penetrate approximately 800 mm (or about 31 inches) of Rolled Homogeneous Armor (basically steel armor plate) at 60 degrees, (2000 meters) which is FAR more than ANY armored vehicle from WWII. Regarding the KwK 43 L/71, the most effective armor piercing round was the PzGr. 40/43 APCR. That will penetrate appromatly 240mm of steel at 30 degrees. However because the M1A2 uses Chobam Armor, it would be even less effective to modern armor. Bottom line, the best way to kill it would be be a mobility kill, be it at the engine in back, blowing off the tracks, or disabling the main gun. Bottom line, the Tiger II stands NO chance in modern tank combat. There is a reason anti tank warfare continues to evolve, its threat and counter threat.

Also, never underestimate spall. It will ALWAYS happen, and it WILL kill you. In fact, it is so deadly, that the British invented a round called HESH, and its purpose is to not actually penetrate, but to use the shock wave from an explosion to transfer energy and create spall. Most modern armored vehicles have something called a spall liner, which is many layers of Kevlar (just how many they wont say) put in as a liner to protect against it. It wont stop the actual penetration of the main round if it does indeed come in, but protects from the spread of the spall. Just because the entrance hole will be small, does not mean the exit will be the same size. Exit holes are always larger.

Bottom line, spall is deadly, never underestimate it.

[Blue Lightning]

So mabey it will kill some of the crew, and mabey not depending on the "luck of the spall" so to speak. I would have the KT crew wearing a suit to protect them to be honest, and that should take care of a lot of it. But you never answered the question about the 88 L/71. We know it can knock off Abrams tracks, but what might it do at the turret hull gap (which is a large gap in the Abrams).

[gp556by45]

Sorry I was not clear about the spall liner. Spall liner is not a flexible form of kevlar. Its technical name is "multi-ply Kevlar / thermoset resin laminate sheet" Traditional Kevlar body armor will not stop spall from your own tank flying around at thousands of feet per second, and its best to stop the spall from ever reaching you in the first place. Suits are not practical in such a tight environment, not only would they not work, but they would severely limit crew efficiency, almost to the point of uselessness.

Regarding the turret gap penetration, there was a friendly fire incident during the First Gulf War, in which a 120mm DU Sabot round hit that area and did penetrate and kill the gunner. However with that being said, there is a world of difference between a 88mm shell and a 120mm DU Kinetic Penetrator, its like the difference between a blow torch and drill bit. I think that part it entirely up to speculation.

All armor has its flaws. However the flaws of the Tiger II are so great compared to the M1A2 that it would be more of a hindrance in tank combat more than an asset.

[Blue Lightning]

So what your saying is that the King Tiger myswell be made of paper? Come to think of it, that would be less lethal to the crew...hell, that would save the crew! No spalling! Ok try this on...

Ok, let's say the Abrams is facing off against a King Tiger with a bunch of cardboard skiritng on it, making the KT look twice as big as it already is. If Abrams gunner hits a paper area, the round goes right through and out with no damage. Or make the tank from wood...again, no damage.

Also, the KT crew can (before the battle), make a large oblong hole (4 inches wide) that goes from the front of the hull to the back and out. If Abrams round hits the large hole, the hole serves to "guide' the sabot through and out the back with no damage! I got ideas!

Originally Posted by gp556by45

The round fired out of the Abrams main gun, the M256, is called the M829A3, and will penetrate approximately 800 mm (or about 31 inches) of Rolled Homogeneous Armor (basically steel armor plate) at 60 degrees, (2000 meters) which is FAR more than ANY armored vehicle from WWII. Regarding the KwK 43 L/71, the most effective armor piercing round was the PzGr. 40/43 APCR. That will penetrate appromatly 240mm of steel at 30 degrees.

Umm, 30 degrees is a much shallower armor than 60 degrees you know. 30 degrees at 240 would be like 60 degrees at 500.

Originally Posted by gp556by45

However because the M1A2 uses Chobam Armor, it would be even less effective to modern armor. Bottom line, the best way to kill it would be be a mobility kill, be it at the engine in back, blowing off the tracks, or disabling the main gun.

Great, you just answered my question. The 88mm L/71 does have a prayer in hell, if the round immobolizes the Abrams gun. Ok, thats what could be added to the scenario. Again, I know the KT is no match. Like I said in the OP, I wanted to paint a scenario where it could happen. A hit on Abrams 120mm barrel...splitting the barrel...that would do it. But it would be hard to get that accurate of a hit...

[OldAbe]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

At 10 meters and a side shot? The 88 would just "bounce off like a raindrop"? I think you overestimate what Abrams side armor can hold up to, and underestimate what an 88 L/71 can do.

It could not get within 1500M let alone 10. Even then 10m is not enough distance for the shell to gather way. You over estimate a piece of machinery that was already obsolete in 1944

[OldAbe]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

The small round might "cause some spalling and kill the whole crew" inspires damn little confedence from a quarter size entry, as far as Im concerend. Unless it is an ammunition hit which will blow up the KT, then at best the Sabot round will kill a few crew...time enough for the KT to get at least one shot off, right?

And if we can get a penetration into Abrams from the KT (I know that is questionable), then there is little doubt what inside damage the 88 round can do. So lets say the 88 fires from 900 meters. It is an L/71 tungsten core round. Will it enter? What about at 10 meters at the turret/hull gap?

900m? Again the raindrop analogy. By 1945 The Germans had'nt enough tungsten for penetrators. If the Abrams can withtand 120mm DU rounds,vwaht cahnce wiyld WC2 have at 900m, from that 8.8 popgun?

[OldAbe]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

If the SABOT round's entry is only the size of a quarter, I'm sorry, but thats like thin armor gettign shot with a rifle. The small of a round might enter, but the damage it can do is neglagible. A tiny dart-like round entering the tank might miss the entire crew and go out the other side with no damage being done.

Meanwhile the L/71 is preparing to fire at the turret/hull gap...

This getting laugable. You might as well send a knight on horse back against a 30mm avenger gau. DU actually reacts with the carbon based steel nad ignites it. This getting silly.

[Jcpsr]

What about 20 M90 Tank Destroyers or 20 SU100s againt a Abrams ?

If they all positioned themselfs into position to strike the tracks and engine of the Abrams could they get it done ?

[GenericAmerican]

So i doubt that a king tiger can quickly turn and hide behind anything, the darn thing could barley travel offroad. It was a way too heavy tank, and it's engine was underpowered. It took near a minute to turn the turret in a full circle (yes it did, it has all the problems the Tiger I had, plus more). Max speed is slower than i can run, the king tiger would lose as soon as it was spotted by the abrams. And its armour, which was crazy for its day; would not stand up to anything today. As much as i like the engineering disaster, it would not win. In fact pretty much all of the 200 produced never won any battles. Most broke down before they seen combat. Idk why Hitler insisted on building the expensive piece of crap, when he could have had about 5-10 panzer IV's built in the same amount of time and for the same cost.

...alright thats out of my system. GO ABRAMS!!!

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by GenericAmerican

. As much as i like the engineering disaster,

I lol'd.

Originally Posted by GenericAmerican

. it would not win. In fact pretty much all of the 200 produced never won any battles. Most broke down before they seen combat.

I wouldnt say "most". But anyway, the one's that did see battle did win, and a lot.

Originally Posted by GenericAmerican

. Idk why Hitler insisted on building the expensive piece of crap, when he could have had about 5-10 panzer IV's built in the same amount of time and for the same cost.

Yeah, or he could of had two or three Tiger 1's which had less problems, and were already proven and more than adaquate. or 4 Panthers which were the best "all around" tank. or mabey 15 or 20 StuGs which could of delayed the war another year as they play a great defensive role...that Hitler was not interested in. But one v one...nothing could defeat a King Tiger.
Bottom line...most of you argue that there is no way and no scenario that can happen to beat the Abrams with the KT. You post gave e food for thought...

Tiger 1 or King Tiger? Which was best all around?

EDIT: After doing a little research I found thast the King Tiger was prone to breakdowns...a lot more than the Tiger 1. Because of the demands of the war and lack of materials, the KT had severly poor welds (some of them) and bad construction. And on mobility, because of their immense weight there were places the KT couldnt go that the Tiger 1 could go. In regards to firepower, the Tiger 1's L/56 88mm could easily outrange the Russian cannnons. Even the IS2's 122mm, which was effective at a maximum of 1,500 m, couldnt stand against the 88 L/56, which could effectivly engage at 2000 m and better (under good conditions). Bottom line...there really was no need for the KT's L/71 88, which also had problems as it got clogged a lot and had to be constantly cleaned. Sure the longest recorded kill of the war, was a King Tiger's 88mm L/71, killing a T-34 at 3,500 meters, but that was a one-time situation. In real conditions it was rare that engagments happened over 1,000 meters, and the Tiger 1's L/56 88mm was more than up to that task.

The Tiger 1 used less resources and less fuel since it was lighter than the KT...and it's armor was adaquate enough. It's frontal could not be penetrated even by an IS2, at over 1,000 m at a 30 degree angle.

In conclusion, the Tiger 1 (although not as powerful) was a far better tank and more reliable all-around tank than the King Tiger. Germany could of had 2 Tiger 1's or more, for every one KT. It makes no sense. Sure the KT in a one v one couldnt be beaten (almost), but that's if you can get it to the line, and many broke down before they ever saw action as GenericAmerican points out. Germany would of been better off staying with the Tiger 1 in my opinion.

[lars29]

Nashorn in Action !
The most notable Nashorn ace was platoon commander of 1st company of sPzJagAbt 519, Junior Lieutenant Albert Ernst. He later commanded the 1st company of sPzJagAbt 512 (equipped with Jagdtigers). On December 23rd of 1943, he destroyed some 14 Soviet tanks in a single day using only 21 round of ammunition. The engagement took place near Vitebsk and Albert Ernst received a nickname "Tiger of Vitebsk". In December of 1943, Ernst destroyed total of 19 enemy tanks and on January 22nd of 1944, he was awarded the Knight’s Cross.

It is reported that in early March of 1945, Lieutenant Beckmann from sPzJagAbt 88 destroyed Soviet IS-2 at the range of 4600 meters near Marzdorf

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerj...sd-kfz-164.htm

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerk...sd-kfz-182.htm

[Nikitn]

Originally Posted by Panzer118

heeeeee, your story gives me a good laugh. In realrity, M1 takes out T72 at distance of 2500m kill range over 2000m(t72). By the way, the King tiger hass no chance on both speed and its thick armour takes no stand from the modern shells. Sorry, thats the truths. Its like an elephant figting a polar bear.

Actually US tanks only fired at export version Iraqi T-72's (which were jokes who didn't even have decent ammunition and even stored them on the outside in fight). Electronic protection and armour was far superior in Soviet version among other things so it is not unlikely that a T-72 (no reactive armour) could have given an Abram a tough match. I'm no expert but I thought I would bring this in.

Other than that no, a king tiger would be ripped open like a tin can by any AP round now a days.

PS. Anyone play Men Of War? It is very realistic, and extremely fun game for people who like historical accuracy. Especially tank combat, with all the factors is very fun (once you learn the things). http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/forumdisplay.php?f=112

I REALLY recommend it. Greatest RTS since Cossacks: European wars.

Blue Lightning the German problem was not lack of industry, but fuel. Because of fuel, less but strong tanks was far more convenient than hordes of Panzer IV's.

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by Nikitn

Blue Lightning the German problem was not lack of industry, but fuel. Because of fuel, less but strong tanks was far more convenient than hordes of Panzer IV's.

I didnt say lack of industry. I said lack of fuel and resources. But also lack of industry too, when the industry is being bombed into smithereens on a daily basis...yeah, lack of industry.

Bottom line...the 88 L/71 at 1,500 meters, would have to make an ace shot right on the Abrams cannon, immoblizing its firepower. Then Abrams couldnt get a shot off. Otherwise, all bets are off.

The other way would be for it to hit the turret hull gap, although many might disagree with that one.

Originally Posted by lars29

Nashorn in Action !
The most notable Nashorn ace was platoon commander of 1st company of sPzJagAbt 519, Junior Lieutenant Albert Ernst. He later commanded the 1st company of sPzJagAbt 512 (equipped with Jagdtigers). On December 23rd of 1943, he destroyed some 14 Soviet tanks in a single day using only 21 round of ammunition. The engagement took place near Vitebsk and Albert Ernst received a nickname "Tiger of Vitebsk". In December of 1943, Ernst destroyed total of 19 enemy tanks and on January 22nd of 1944, he was awarded the Knight’s Cross.

Interesting information.

However, your talking about JagdTigers and JagdPanthers. Those were not "regular production tanks", but more like huge big-bertha guns on wheels..."speacialty tanks". Or specialty tank destroyers...like big StuGs. Horribly ineffeciant and immmobile, absolute gasoline guzzlers (yes the German tanks used gasoline just like the American Shermans). When I said the longest tank kill of the war I meant regualar production tank, and the King Tiger I guess was regular production although there were only 800 of them.

[Nikitn]

Actually Albert Speer was one of the industrial genuises of the XX century. Allied bombing was reallly inaccurate and ineffective against German industry (for example, the production increased significantly in 1943-1944).

[lars29]

only 489 Kingtigers and same gun as the Nashorn witch was buildt on p3 and p4 chassis,494 buildt.