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Old 05-16-2010, 01:57 PM   #1
Raikun
 
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The Opinion of a Competitive Player, on Behalf of Many of Us

(This is going to be a very long post but I just wanted to convey my opinion, which I feel many people in the competitive scene share, to the developers. I would appreciate it if you read this post with an open mind).

I just want to preface this post with a quick thank you to Hidden Path Entertainment for their amazing contribution and future contributions to Counter-Strike: Source. The community has been yearning for an update for years now and it seems you are making steps towards fixing bugs we've been crying out for VALVe to fix for years.

It's a really good thing(tm), also, that you are all paying attention to our concerns in the forums. I trust that you take many of the complaints with a pinch of salt, however. The Counter-Strike scene, as I'm sure you've gathered, is rather conservative; people take change as a threat. Even cosmetic changes, like the achievement system or the new death camera (which I'm told is made changeable via cvar - which will mean it has 0 impact on us competitively) people feel (stupidly, perhaps) will completely rejig our metagame. However, there are many changes that have been suggested that would be devastating to competitive counter-strike and also completely change the game. These are not bug fixes, and I feel public players would be overstepping their boundaries as a segment of the community if they dictate balance changes that would affect people that live and breathe the balance and metagame.

I understand that you may be wary to please competitive players as we don't exactly represent a large proportion of your market share (though most think competitive gaming is what keeps many people playing public counter-strike- as you learn to aspire to become as good as the 'pros') and we have a habit of blowing up in your faces in the most ungrateful manner every time you make a tiny mistake or we misinterpret you (the competitive gamer's uproar at the aforementioned cosmetic changes and the acceleration bug are examples of this, but also the mass rebellion towards the quickscope change, dynamic weapon pricing [but that was a terrible idea anyway] and, in the distant past, the move to steam from WON and the addition of the AWP delay in CS 1.6)

However, I feel that there are two issues that I should bring to your attention, simply from the standpoint of competitive CS:S players. We are your most dedicated players and I feel that, though it sounds pretentious to suggest so, we 'deserve' some sort of recognition in the process of updating 'our' game. The two issues I intend to highlight are (in the broadest terms), Bugs and issues specific to competitive CS:S and also Our Metagame, and why some change is 'a real good thing', most is 'devastatingly and frustratingly bad'. (I apologise for the convoluted titles).

Bugs and issues specific to competitive CS:S
Firstly, I'd just like to redirect Hidden Path to zBlock. zBlock is THE competitive Counter-Strike:Source addon which is used by everybody, and on many public servers also. It fixes many holes in Counter-Strike by enforcing many cvars to be certain values. It prevents many cvar exploits and also ensures an even and consistent playing field. The zb_lo3, readyup, ko3 and also steamID announce features are extremely useful for league play. It would be a very good thing if hidden path integrated many of the features of zBlock into Counter-Strike Source. Nothing of value would be lost: the cvars locked are, for the most part, 'cheats' and exploits. The only thing that you may find questionable is the enforcement of interpolation. zBlock also fixes a number of bugs (ie. not being able to defuse through defuse kits ontop of the bomb, bunnyhopping [which is cool on public servers but is not balanced in competitive play] and door speeds.)

With that out of the way, here is a list of bugs and a little explanation with each one why it is integral that these bugs are fixed both for the competitive community AND the casual community.:

- using the command 'snd_restart' or any command that resets sound removes all flashes from the screen.
- people that peak round a corner have an advantage over people standing still round the corner. This is known as the 'interp bug' in the competitive scene. It is highlighted by this thread: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...d.php?t=490324
- people can appear to have a nade out and be mid throw when they already have their gun out, this is important because you play more aggressive if you think they cant shoot you back, but then you realise you are mistaken as soon as you get one-bulleted.
- (fixed by zBlock but please fix these): Door speed is affected by tickrate (should always be fast), you cannot defuse a bomb if there is a defuse kit on top
- shadows still appear if ragdolls are turned off
- there is no way to set ragdolls to fade after a certain amount of time (important for FPS issues)
- crabwalking (moving while cancelling a plant)
- dxlevels affect flash length on ATi cards (but we fix this by forcing dxlevel 81 in leagues, but this looks bad on many cards)
- Guns and shadows clip through walls and doors
- Crouchbugging (a player can appear to be crouched behind a box while still being able to look above it, as shown by this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFKVUzjzI7Y, this is fixed by zBlock but a more elegant solution could be found)

I feel that fixing any of these bugs would have no negative effect on the public and casual scene.

Our Metagame, and why some change is 'a real good thing', most is 'devastatingly and frustratingly bad'.
Competitive players have adjusted, since Counter-Strike 1.0, to a certain hierarchy and a certain pace of game. We treat the pistols as guns to use only when your cash is low (bar the pistol rounds), the submachine guns as a means to combat pistol rushes (and to capitalise on successes in the first rounds) and Rifles/the AWP as the 'meat' of the game. This provides us with an interesting game. Round losses are punished by the loss of guns and thus a decrease in money. Round losses are recoverable because you do not lose your ability to repurchase the 'meaty' guns (AK47/M4 and AWP) with one round loss. It takes a losing streak to 'eco'. Round wins facilitate an advantage in the next round (pistol round wins facilitate SMGs and so forth). Thus, the game is about momentum. A team on a winning streak is better suited to win, a team on a losing streak is more likely to lose. This is what makes Counter-Strike so interesting and rewarding to play. Besides the obvious win consistently and bash them for the rest because you have so much money factor (which makes it more fun because you can rack up killstreaks if your team is winning) there's also the sense that if you're losing, it's a challenge to come back. The big 'comebacks' are so impressive because it's so difficult. There's nothing more rewarding than getting 14-1'd first half and then 15-0'ing the opponents second half (Competitive CS is played over 30 rounds, two halves, with startmoney 800 and, in general, 1 minute 45 roundtime). Changing the weapon balance and making the cheaper guns more usable would ruin the point of using the better guns. It would reduce the number of rounds teams need to eco, and provide little incentive to winning rounds. CSS is easy enough; you do not have to pay for ammo and you seldom have to save your money for longer than 1 or 2 rounds to be able to afford rifles again. Rejigging the weapons for the sake of 'variety' just makes each gun generic.

Reducing the potency of the AWP would also be a very big mistake. The gun serves a very interesting dynamic in competitive gameplay. It is seldom, if ever, used for rushes. More as a 'picking' weapon and as a defensive weapon. It initiates team fights by instantly reducing the number of enemies on the defensive team in a rush. It is for these reasons that it should remain unchanged. If you play a competitive counter-strike game you would know how difficult it is to defend against a close quarters five person rush with an AWP instead of a rifle. The fact that it is fast after quickswitching alleviates that problem slightly. The fact is that because the gun fires so slow (even with quickswitching it takes ages to fire enough bullets to kill a team) and you're made pretty vulnerable while scoping in that balances the AWP. The fact that it is so powerful also affects the game and its strategy. Keeping it this powerful means that people can continue to do what they have always done: devised strategies to overwhelm an awper by using numbers, by forcing it into tight spaces and by overwhelming him with flashes and smoke grenades. Making the AWP less powerful or other guns more powerful to compensate would ruin the whole allure of the AWP and its impact on competitive play, it would also change strategies for the worse. Buying an AWP changes the gameplay and allows teams to add a dynamic. Making all the guns generic would remove this dynamic and just make your choice of weaponry inconsequential and make the game boring as a result. As an addendum: why, if the AWP is so overpowered, would an AWPer drop his AWP for an assault rifle in a 1v4 situation? The AWP is situational. Please leave us be and let us use it like it is.

We quickswitch because it allows us to unzoom very quickly. This way we can walk around corners and scope whenever we think danger is approached without having to click twice very slowly (click once to double zoom from the single zoom, and click again to unzoom). Adding an awp delay would reduce the awp's mobility. Because we are no longer able to quickswitch without consequence, we are almost forced to stay zoomed in and immobile. This is actually BAD for casual players who complain about 'camping'. If it is harder to move around with an AWP AWPers will just have to camp to be safe. Allowing us to kill many opponents slightly quicker by quickswitching gives the awper SOME defence from rushers. It's not a horrible advantage and it's not a horrible aid, but it means that if you're fast with your aim and fast with your fingers it is possible to kill a full team of five. It is still a hard thing to do (and I say this being the main awper of many good teams in the past). Making this actually _IMPOSSIBLE_ to do would just make it easier to rush sites and cause people to be less cautious in doing so. The game is rush-happy already, why make it even more so?

Forcing public-friendly and cosmetic changes upon us is also a bad thing. I'm sure you know this already however. All we ask is that you make many things changeable via cvar. If we don't like domination or the new deathcam or achievements, please let us decide ourselves using server commands whether we want them in our game or not. This way casual gamers can keep the features that appeal to them, and competitive players can continue playing the game we've been playing and will play for years, minus a few bugs (THANK YOU SO MUCH HIDDEN PATH) and hopefully improved netcode and increased FPS thanks to the engine update!
Thank you for your time, and thank you for reading this.
 
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:08 PM   #2
bgaimur
 
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The last bit about the AWP started off decently, but failed miserably when you came to the conclusion that adding a delay from Shot > quick switch > shot would ruin the awp. You have clearly never even touched 1.6, as you would quickly find any good awper in the game to be more strategic with his positioning, and also utilizing another difference in the game: accurate quick scoping.

Adding an unavoidable delay between shots on the awp (the delay would be the same as it is if you didn't quick switch) along with accurate quick scoping would effectively change the awp for the better, and would eliminate "robin hood" running around with his semi-auto awp
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:10 PM   #3
jonb
 
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Wow man, you said everything i really wanted too but was way too lazy, pray that it was not in vain.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:11 PM   #4
dekstar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikun View Post
- using the command 'snd_restart' or any command that resets sound removes all flashes from the screen.
- people that peak round a corner have an advantage over people standing still round the corner. This is known as the 'interp bug' in the competitive scene. It is highlighted by this thread: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...d.php?t=490324
- people can appear to have a nade out and be mid throw when they already have their gun out, this is important because you play more aggressive if you think they cant shoot you back, but then you realise you are mistaken as soon as you get one-bulleted.
- (fixed by zBlock but please fix these): Door speed is affected by tickrate (should always be fast), you cannot defuse a bomb if there is a defuse kit on top
- shadows still appear if ragdolls are turned off
- there is no way to set ragdolls to fade after a certain amount of time (important for FPS issues)
- crabwalking (moving while cancelling a plant)
- dxlevels affect flash length on ATi cards (but we fix this by forcing dxlevel 81 in leagues, but this looks bad on many cards)
- Guns and shadows clip through walls and doors
- Crouchbugging (a player can appear to be crouched behind a box while still being able to look above it, as shown by this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFKVUzjzI7Y, this is fixed by zBlock but a more elegant solution could be found)

I feel that fixing any of these bugs would have no negative effect on the public and casual scene.
Ok these are the points I've focussed on:
the snd_restart bug has apparently been fixed by the engine update according to a recent post in the Consolidated bugs list thread.
The interp bug is completely fixed as the new engine's netcode doesn't use it.

In the Consolidated bugs list thread, they have acknowledged zblock and have a note in their first post that they should consider contacting them.

Although you may not be in the beta, if you're interested in what Hiiden Path are trying to fix with this beta, the Consolidated Bugs List thread (stickied at the top of this forum) should be the place you look/keep track of.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:13 PM   #5
Raikun
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgaimur View Post
The last bit about the AWP started off decently, but failed miserably when you came to the conclusion that adding a delay from Shot > quick switch > shot would ruin the awp. You have clearly never even touched 1.6, as you would quickly find any good awper in the game to be more strategic with his positioning, and also utilizing another difference in the game: accurate quick scoping.

Adding an unavoidable delay between shots on the awp (the delay would be the same as it is if you didn't quick switch) along with accurate quick scoping would effectively change the awp for the better, and would eliminate "robin hood" running around with his semi-auto awp
I played competitive CS from 1.3-1.6. Only moved to source in 2007. Also you cannot quickscope in source, your point is moot.

EDIT: I'm mid mix so I quickly read.

Quickscope would inbalance the AWP as models are so big in CSS it's so much easier to hit shots.

Last edited by Raikun: 05-16-2010 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:19 PM   #6
Raikun
 
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Originally Posted by dekstar View Post
Ok these are the points I've focussed on:
the snd_restart bug has apparently been fixed by the engine update according to a recent post in the Consolidated bugs list thread.
The interp bug is completely fixed as the new engine's netcode doesn't use it.

In the Consolidated bugs list thread, they have acknowledged zblock and have a note in their first post that they should consider contacting them.

Although you may not be in the beta, if you're interested in what Hiiden Path are trying to fix with this beta, the Consolidated Bugs List thread (stickied at the top of this forum) should be the place you look/keep track of.
Yeah, this thread was mostly about not changing weapon balance.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:27 PM   #7
Jimaxx
 
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A extremely nice well structured post which I hope gets alot of attention from the people above, said alot which needed to be said without all the stupid comments and flaming which has been said before.

Jim

Last edited by Jimaxx: 05-16-2010 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:28 PM   #8
JesÁs
 
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I believe TF2 has the quickscope like CS 1.6. They add a checkbox to your options where after you shoot it automatically un-scopes.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:30 PM   #9
phoonisadime
 
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You had me until

Quote:
bunnyhopping [which is cool on public servers but is not balanced in competitive play]
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:31 PM   #10
Raikun
 
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Originally Posted by phoonisadime View Post
You had me until

haha love you phoon

well, we could always make it cvarrable
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:32 PM   #11
Raikun
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesÁs View Post
I believe TF2 has the quickscope like CS 1.6. They add a checkbox to your options where after you shoot it automatically un-scopes.
that's not what quickscoping is.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:33 PM   #12
dekstar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikun View Post
Yeah, this thread was mostly about not changing weapon balance.
I'm quoting what you posted, so excuse me for 'not getting what this thread was about'.

Also if you're against weapon balance, take a look at the stickies at the top. There's a thread all about 'weapons balance' and how they're trying to make the game as close to CSS as possible.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:33 PM   #13
Jimaxx
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesÁs View Post
I believe TF2 has the quickscope like CS 1.6. They add a checkbox to your options where after you shoot it automatically un-scopes.
TF2 quickscope is farfarfar closer to css than 1.6 style


(edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0 for anyone who doesnt understand the phoon stuff[/color])

Last edited by Jimaxx: 05-16-2010 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:37 PM   #14
bradlewis
 
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+1 to OP and rep
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:37 PM   #15
jonb
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoonisadime View Post
You had me until
I'M PHOON AND I SCRIPT MY BHOP
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