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Old 06-25-2011, 07:21 AM   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #16
MikeBlaszczak
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone'Postal View Post
Not at all, we can only go on how it works with what information we have, and right now, that leads to the one conclusion that it doesn't.

But I do love the way you answered with a question and didn't correct//answer me.
I'm glad you appreciate it, since it's directly in response to your attitude. Your boastful posts make it pretty clear that you think you're perfectly sure you know what's going on. Given that, I'm trying to figure out if your question is worth answering or not. When I provide an answer, what's to say you just won't keep arguing? Let's give it a shot and see how you do:

VAC works by scanning players' computers for cheats. VAC scans as many machines as it can, as often as it can. If a user is reported for cheating, VAC can decide to investigate the machine a little differently, more aggressively, more frequently, or sooner.

I'm sure that even you will agree such reports are helpful to both VAC and the players.

Won't you?
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:32 AM   #17
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I'm sure the general doubt occurred after manually reporting obvious cheaters and periodically checking to see if they got banned.

Because they didn't and because everywhere is written that VAC is automated must've led the community to believe that the "Report suspected cheater" doesn't work/is inefficient.

Thanks for clearing it up now. Personally, I'll continue to use it.
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:08 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
I'm glad you appreciate it, since it's directly in response to your attitude. Your boastful posts make it pretty clear that you think you're perfectly sure you know what's going on. Given that, I'm trying to figure out if your question is worth answering or not. When I provide an answer, what's to say you just won't keep arguing? Let's give it a shot and see how you do:

VAC works by scanning players' computers for cheats. VAC scans as many machines as it can, as often as it can. If a user is reported for cheating, VAC can decide to investigate the machine a little differently, more aggressively, more frequently, or sooner.

I'm sure that even you will agree such reports are helpful to both VAC and the players.

Won't you?
With all due respect, the information the users have on VAC is misleading and somewhat conflicted depending on which Valve staff member is posting, if you think I have an attitude toward yourself, I do not. With that aside.

Your above post on VAC would point to that VAC is but not limited to:
  • Server side(we know this), however limited in the machines it can scan\\process at any one time.
  • It does scan your entire PC (since you said computer not memory, which is the main reason I won't install Punkbuster, so if this is the not the case, please correct me.
  • It collects information on accounts to PC hardware (used I should assume in part to make Steam Guard)

Which is more information on VAC then any of the support documentation, giving of course you are telling the truth about it, tho tbh, I'd not trust you if you said rain was wet.

However, what you have said is that VAC has a normal scan which it uses to scan everyone, by reporting someone, VAC can decide to scan their machine differently which might pick up a cheat, if one is used, and assign a ban.

This then, makes the support page linked above somewhat of a lie, since the user reporting the cheater, technically did get VAC to look at him in more detail then before, or at least, scanned differently. So reporting a cheater CAN in some cases, get that user banned. (do you see the issue I have this now? - one page tells us 1+1=2, the other gives 1+1=4)

This also means that VAC can miss cheats until someone flags someone else up, but since VAC only scans for what is known as a cheat... this then opens up the question... does VAC scan for every cheat it knows when it scans or just some of the more <enter item here> ones used at the time of scan?

A lot of this is just guess work, but as you can see, without facts, speculation runs away with itself and you end up with what you have, which is a mess, and that isn't helped by dis-information from staff and support pages.




One last thing, I'm not arguing with you Mike, I have no idea if the reports do anything or nothing, I can only go on what Valve say in the supporting documentation.. which is .. if you are trying to report a cheater, please do so here, but be aware, that nothing will come of that report.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Etherfast View Post
I'm sure the general doubt occurred after manually reporting obvious cheaters and periodically checking to see if they got banned.

Because they didn't and because everywhere is written that VAC is automated must've led the community to believe that the "Report suspected cheater" doesn't work/is inefficient.

Thanks for clearing it up now. Personally, I'll continue to use it.

Same here, a small bit of info (assuming it's not lies) and it's cleared up, this is Valves biggest issue (imo) communication with it's clients.

Last edited by Gone'Postal: 06-25-2011 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:19 AM   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
Are you really trying to make everyone believe you know how it works better than Valve's own employees?
I've repeatedly explained to him that, as a member of the VAC team, this data is valuable to me and helps me to improve the service.

At this point, I feel he is just trolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone'Postal View Post
if you are trying to report a cheater, please do so here, but be aware, that nothing will come of that report.
The documentation is as such because people fear that if they are reported, that means that they will get banned.

While a user being reported may indirectly result in VAC catching a cheat and banning them, a report by itself (or 1000 of them) will not cause that user to be banned.
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:28 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by BurtonJ View Post
I've repeatedly explained to him that, as a member of the VAC team, this data is valuable to me and helps me to improve the service.
You have? I'd love a source.

I've answered the ops question in truth given the information on the support pages, disagree with that, change the support page.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonJ View Post
The documentation is as such because people fear that if they are reported, that means that they will get banned.

While a user being reported may indirectly result in VAC catching a cheat and banning them, a report by itself (or 1000 of them) will not cause that user to be banned.
So why not change the documentation to make it something other then a one way global blanket statement of "No" if that "no" is BS.

Going off what the support pages state, pages that Valve wrote and publish.

Reporting cheaters does nothing to help catch cheaters, it gives Valve information only.

Mike is saying that is wrong.. well sorry BurtonJ which one do I believe? You, mike or the support pages?

You say it helps, support pages say it doesn't, this thread will be pruned by the forum in a few months time.. all that is left then is the support pages...

Last edited by Gone'Postal: 06-25-2011 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:38 PM   #21
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My guess is when you report a cheater vac stores program information, compares some type of hash against other people being reported and find a ring of people who get reported magically using the same private cheat all the time.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:11 PM   #22
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Too much conflicting info here from Valve staff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
VAC works by scanning players' computers for cheats. VAC scans as many machines as it can, as often as it can.
So it scans the whole computer? That's not what we've been led to believe.

What do you mean by "as often as it can"? Do you mean when people are playing in VAC secured servers or simply when Steam is running?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
If a user is reported for cheating, VAC can decide to investigate the machine a little differently, more aggressively, more frequently, or sooner.
So reporting does more than contribute to statistics? Again, this is not what we've been told before. Clarification would be nice.

Not expecting an answer for this but here goes... How do you scan more aggressively? Surely you just scan for cheats and file modifications, right? To me, more aggressively sounds like you will scan the whole computer for files that could be used to cheat, not just if cheats are running at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
I'm sure that even you will agree such reports are helpful to both VAC and the players.
Won't you?
If we go by the support pages, no.

If we go by your claims that VAC works differently on a suspected cheater, still no since anybody can report anybody for anything.

Since we're on topic of VAC, please change this page as it has been wrong for ages now. https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...2455-HJCB-7696
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:31 PM   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #23
MikeBlaszczak
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone'Postal View Post
Which is more information on VAC then any of the support documentation, giving of course you are telling the truth about it, tho tbh, I'd not trust you if you said rain was wet.
Then it's apparent I'm wasting my time when I'm trying to help you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
So it scans the whole computer? That's not what we've been led to believe.
VAC looks at the game process. That might include other add ins, parts of the system itself (like Kernel and User, which are loaded in every process), and so on. It doesn't quite scan the whole computer, but it doesn't strictly scan only the game code, either.

I appreciate that you're interested in precise answers, but because of VAC's nature, we're not about to write technical documentation explaining its operation for everyone. As such, some of the answers you receive will be intentionally vague or incomplete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
So reporting does more than contribute to statistics?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
So reporting does more than contribute to statistics? Again, this is not what we've been told before. Clarification would be nice.
The support article states as much: the information is "use for tracking and statistics". You seem to have skipped over the "tracking" part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
If we go by your claims that VAC works differently on a suspected cheater, still no since anybody can report anybody for anything.
The process is more involved -- and also more effective -- than you're assuming.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
I appreciate that you're interested in precise answers, but because of VAC's nature, we're not about to write technical documentation explaining its operation for everyone. As such, some of the answers you receive will be intentionally vague or incomplete.
Didn't expect anything less but there's a difference between vague and contradicting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
The process is more involved -- and also more effective -- than you're assuming.
I'm assuming you will "investigate" people who receive a high number of reports (which of course can be "manufactured"), am I wrong?

Last edited by MikeBlaszczak: 06-25-2011 at 01:38 PM. Reason: double post
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:46 PM   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #25
MikeBlaszczak
 
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Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
I'm assuming you will "investigate" people who receive a high number of reports (which of course can be "manufactured"), am I wrong?
I believe I answered this question in Post #16, above.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
Then it's apparent I'm wasting my time when I'm trying to help you.
Do you not think that the lack of trust comes from different sources giving conflicting information?

Feel free to keep saying what we "should" believe, other staff will tell us something different and the support pages will tell us something different again...

Who to trust eh, who would you trust Mike?

In the end it just makes Valve look like silly, it's own staff can't agree on what something does.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
I believe I answered this question in Post #16, above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
I believe I answered this question in Post #16, above.
Now who's double posting?

Anyway, I don't see an answer for that.

My point is that people will wrongly report which will be a waste of time and resources investigating, won't it?

Also, if someone is cheating, gets many reports and you can't find anything on their machine, how aggressive do you get?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone'Postal View Post
it's own staff can't agree on what something does.
This is what I don't get, if they're going to be intentionally vague, at least say the same thing.

Last edited by scotland372: 06-25-2011 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
This is what I don't get, if they're going to be intentionally vague, at least say the same thing.
Same here, I'm not trying to be an donkey, just want some of this fluff cleared up.

Does it help or doesn't it, if it does then the support page needs to be changed to reflect that.
----------



Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
VAC works by scanning players' computers for cheats. VAC scans as many machines as it can, as often as it can. If a user is reported for cheating, VAC can decide to investigate the machine a little differently, more aggressively, more frequently, or sooner.
So it does help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonJ View Post
as a member of the VAC team, this data is valuable to me and helps me to improve the service.

While a user being reported may indirectly result in VAC catching a cheat and banning them, a report by itself (or 1000 of them) will not cause that user to be banned.
So it might help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by support page
VAC does not ban based on reports. Such data is only used for tracking and statistics purposes.
So it doesn't help at all..

Sorry for the above stuff Mike and BurtonJ but can you not see how confusing this is for people who want to know..

Does it help or doesn't it?

Last edited by Gone'Postal: 06-25-2011 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 06-25-2011, 02:11 PM   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #29
MikeBlaszczak
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
Now who's double posting?
Fixed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
Anyway, I don't see an answer for that.
It's here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
VAC works by scanning players' computers for cheats. VAC scans as many machines as it can, as often as it can. If a user is reported for cheating, VAC can decide to investigate the machine a little differently, more aggressively, more frequently, or sooner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotland372 View Post
My point is that people will wrongly report which will be a waste of time and resources investigating, won't it?
Not in a meaningful way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone'Postal View Post
Sorry for the above stuff Mike and BurtonJ but can you not see how confusing this is for people who want to know..
The support page says it's used for tracking. You've said it does no good and that it's used only for statistics, which isn't true, prima facie.

I said "VAC can decide", which means it helps. The more information VAC has, the better job it can do. Reporting cheaters is more information, so reporting cheaters helps VAC do a better job.

Burton says the data is valuable to him. You translated that as "might help", but more valuable data is almost always helpful. Why do you assume it might not help?

You don't trust my answers, and you want to find tiny semantic problems. Is your attitude coupled with your line of questioning at all productive? I provided an answer. You asked for more detail. I've provided that, too. Now, you're saying you don't believe me. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine: don't report cheaters. Meanwhile, we encourage everyone else to do so because it provides useful information that improves the play experience and the service as a whole.
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Old 06-25-2011, 02:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
<<snip >>

Mike, I'm grateful for the answers but they also go against what is written about VAC, which is part of the problem.

For example, you say the more information VAC has, the better it does it's job.. but VAC only scans for what it knows as a cheat and doesn't scan like an Anti-virus which is what you are implying?


BurtonJ might find that information useful (I'm sure he does for the record), however the ops question is how I came up with the answers in the post above, 3 different sources with 3 different answers.

Tracking or details aside, that support pages states, that no VAC bans will come from reporting anyone.

it's not the whole block of text that needs changing it's that one line, reporting people can lead to a VAC ban as stated by yourself and BurtonJ.

That support page is wrong, people are going to look at that long after this thread is gone, other people are going link it, are you going to correct every one who does?

Last edited by Gone'Postal: 06-25-2011 at 02:45 PM.
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