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Old 08-06-2011, 09:37 PM   #106
Krid
 
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Hey, Valve, dya think you could negotiate for a license to install and manage variants?
Or at least one bulk installer that installs ALL variants and sets flags to mark which ones are installed?
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:13 PM   #107
{Yotsuba}
 
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It doesn't. Read the thread. You can remove those files if you'd like. The only time they'd come back is when you ran a verification of the game cache, not when a patch is released...unless those happen to be a part of the changed files in a patch.

I do delete those files, and Steam still redownloads them whenever a game is patched (regardless of what the content of the patch is). It doesn't just redownload them when integrity of files is checked.

And uh...if you download a game from, say, D2D do they not include these redist files if they happen to be required for a game?

Other services basically provide you with the exact same image as you'd get from a retail CD key. Once you've installed the game, the redists are no longer required. And they only sit around on your harddrive if you choose to keep a local backup.

How do you feel that Steam forces you to keep these on your drive when other DD services don't? You'll have to explain that one instead of just saying things and hoping they turn out to be true.

I would of thought that was pretty obvious....

Last edited by {Yotsuba}: 08-06-2011 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:14 PM   #108
richard.eid
 
 
 
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OK. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Valve has to provide to customers the product, in full, that a developer or publisher sends them. They cannot decide to choose which portions of a product to send. They must send everything. Mr. McCaskey noted that this process could change, but that it would require the coordinated efforts of both Valve, publishers and developers. This would also require all parties to revisit the contracts all of them agree to when a game is put to market on Steam. And before you think this is me "speculating" or "guessing", then consider the obvious fact that there is a distribution agreement that both Valve and their partners agree to when a game goes for sale on Steam. Then think about how what he said means exactly: "The way we distribute products to customers will change." At this point, the old agreement is null and void and both parties must now agree to new terms for distribution.

As far as the licensing agreement:

Quote:
3. DISTRIBUTION REQUIREMENTS AND LICENSE LIMITATIONS.
If you choose to exercise your rights under Section 2, any redistribution by you is subject to your compliance with Section 3.
3.1 General Distribution Requirements.
(a) If you choose to redistribute Sample Code, or Redistributable Code (collectively, the "Redistributables") as described in Section 2, you agree: (i) except as otherwise noted in Section 2.1 (Sample Code), to distribute the Redistributables only in object code form and in conjunction with and as a part of a software application product developed by you that adds significant and primary functionality to the Redistributables ("Licensee Software"); (ii) that the Redistributables only operate in conjunction with Microsoft Windows platforms; (iii) that if the Licensee Software is distributed beyond Licensee's premises or externally from Licensee's organization, to distribute the Licensee Software containing the Redistributables pursuant to an end user license agreement (which may be "break-the-seal", "click-wrap" or signed), with terms no less protective than those contained in this EULA; (iv) not to use Microsoft's name, logo, or trademarks to market the Licensee Software; (v) to display your own valid copyright notice which shall be sufficient to protect Microsoft's copyright in the Software; (vi) not to remove or obscure any copyright, trademark or patent notices that appear on the Software as delivered to you; (vii) to indemnify, hold harmless, and defend Microsoft from and against any claims or lawsuits, including attorney's fees, that arise or result from the use or distribution of the Licensee Software; (viii) to otherwise comply with the terms of this EULA; and (ix) agree that Microsoft reserves all rights not expressly granted.
You also agree not to permit further distribution of the Redistributables by your end users except you may permit further redistribution of the Redistributables by your distributors to your end-user customers if your distributors only distribute the Redistributables in conjunction with, and as part of, the Licensee Software, you comply with all other terms of this EULA, and your distributors comply with all restrictions of this EULA that are applicable to you.
(b) If you use the Redistributables, then in addition to your compliance with the applicable distribution requirements described for the Redistributables, the following also applies. Your license rights to the Redistributables are conditioned upon your not (i) creating derivative works of the Redistributables in any manner that would cause the Redistributables in whole or in part to become subject to any of the terms of an Excluded License; or (ii) distributing the Redistributables (or derivative works thereof) in any manner that would cause the Redistributables to become subject to any of the terms of an Excluded License. An "Excluded License" is any license that requires as a condition of use, modification and/or distribution of software subject to the Excluded License, that such software or other software combined and/or distributed with such software be (x) disclosed or distributed in source code form; (y) licensed for the purpose of making derivative works; or (z) redistributable at no charge.
I didn't look very hard, but I couldn't find this published on Microsoft's site when I gave it a go. You can find the entire agreement in the DirectX SDK, though.

Oh...In case you don't care to download the SDK just for that one text file, and to avoid any confusion(and if there is any justice in the world, to avoid talking about this central repository idea ever again), here's section 2. and 2.1:

Quote:
2. ADDITIONAL LICENSE RIGHTS.
In addition to the rights granted in Section 1, certain portions of the Software, as described in this Section 2, are provided to you with additional license rights. These additional license rights are conditioned upon your compliance with the distribution requirements and license restrictions described in Section 3.

2.1 Sample Code.

(a) Microsoft grants you the right to: (a) use and modify the source code version of those portions of the Software identified as "Samples" in the Software ("Sample Code") for the sole purposes of designing, developing, and testing your software product(s), and (b) a limited, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to reproduce and distribute the Sample Code, along with any modifications thereof, in object and/or source code form. For applicable redistribution requirements for Sample Code, see Section 3 below.

(b) Software Sample Code is identified as all of the files in the following
directories on the Software CD/Download:

\DXSdk\Samples\VB.Net
\DXSdk\Samples\C++
\DXSdk\Samples\C#
\DXSdk\Samples\Media
\Extras\Direct3D\MView
\Extras\Direct3D\Tools
\Extras\DirectShow
And because they namedropped Section 1:

Quote:
END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR MICROSOFT SOFTWARE
DirectX 9.0 Software Development Kit

IMPORTANT-READ CAREFULLY: This End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") for the Microsoft software that accompanies this EULA, which includes computer software and may include associated media, printed materials, "online" or electronic documentation, and Internet-based services ("Software"). An amendment or addendum to this EULA may accompany the Software. YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE.

1. GRANT OF LICENSE. Microsoft grants you the following rights provided that you comply with all terms and conditions of this EULA:
1.1 General License Grant. Microsoft grants to you as an individual, a personal, nonexclusive license to make and use copies of the Software for the purposes of designing, developing, and testing your software product(s), provided that you are the only individual using the Software.
If you are an entity, Microsoft grants to you a personal, nonexclusive license to make and use copies of the Software, provided that for each individual using the Software within your organization, you have acquired a separate and valid license for each such individual.
1.2 Documentation. You may make and use an unlimited number of copies of any documentation, provided that such copies shall be used only for personal purposes and are not to be republished or distributed (either in hard copy or electronic form) beyond your premises.
1.3 Storage/Network Use. You may also store or install a copy of the Software on a storage device, such as a network server, used only to install or run the Software on computers used by a licensed end user in accordance with Section 1.1. A single license for the Software may not be shared or used concurrently by multiple end users.
Even if these licensing terms change to allow for a separation of these required runtimes from a product, it would be a terrible discourtesy to customers. I won't outline why again. I've already stated why. You can go back and read for once.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:30 AM   #109
Jura19950509
 
 
 
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1. Delete all installer files in games folder you will be able to find.
2. Edit file called "installscript", delete every text on it and leave it empty. Set it as Read-Only.
3. Game launches without installing everything.
4. ???
5. PROFIT!?
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:02 AM   #110
DogGunn AUS
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amander View Post
Nice post, BTW. You have nothing except speculations. Either Microsoft not allowing it (without any backup) or the technically just wrong claim that the only way to bla bla is to supply the runtime. Do you mind explaining how a supplied runtime is different from a downloaded runtime? As for "Valve did not include this yet", can't you imagine any other reasons? Look at the Steam update history. Guess what: New features get added! By your "If not done yet, then impossible", this can't be, but it is.
You've got to be ing kidding me. You've argued the same thing each time, and I've successfully rebutted it - but you keep dismissing it.

Either read up, or shut up. It's as simple as that.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:03 PM   #111
avalanch07
 
 
 
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Why cant steam staff bundle all that D3D stuff that you mentioned into one big file, offer it for download and then remove the installers from games? Alot of bandwith saved, quicker installs, less fuss, everyone's happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmccaskey View Post
FYI, running this is not a matter of making sure your overall DirectX install being up-to-date. Microsoft has a helper library with D3D called D3DX. You'll find binaries for this like d3dx9_43.dll in your Windows\system32 folder. There are over 40 different versions of the D3DX library for D3D9 alone, and many more for D3D10 and 11 as well. Each game that uses the D3DX helper library is linked to a specific version. As such the game must run the correct D3D installer version that it was specifically compiled with to ensure the binaries exist. Even if a later version of the binary is already installed, that version cannot be used, and even if your DirectX install is up-to-date because you've run a more recent version of the installer that is not guaranteed to have installed all previous versions. Even worse, if a version is installed for x86 it doesn't guarantee the same version is installed for x64, so 64 bit and 32 bit games may need to run the same exact installer version but targeting different platforms when run. Furthermore, Microsoft's licensing terms prevent anyone from distributing the files directly, the only way to distribute them is to run the installer, that's also the only supported method from Microsoft to check that the correct version installed. Trying to manually check for the correct versions is extremely complicated because there are numerous files that must all be present and individual system configuration options like dll search paths complicate the situation. In addition, the dependencies and required checks may change in each new version of the D3DX runtime. The code to check correctly and repair broken installs all exists in the installer and running it is a guarantee that the correct binaries will exist when you run the game and prevents lots of bad cases where a game would fail to launch with an obscure error if a windows install was either missing the correct version or somehow corrupted in the past.

Games which don't use the D3DX helpers (such as Source engine games) don't require running the annoying installer on first launch as they only depend on major d3d9/10/11 versions being installed. However, games that do use D3DX must run it as it's the only way Microsoft has allowed for distributing and checking the version info on the files.

So that's why we do it for lots of game installs. We can't stop, it's required due to a bad versioning/packaging scheme as well as bad redistribution licensing terms on the D3DX libraries.

The one thing that could be made better on our side is that Steam could be smart enough to know if an exactly matching version of the dx installer is already downloaded and share that content so you don't download it with each game. Since the installer is relatively small compared to most game installs that wouldn't be a huge win though and requires a good deal of new complexity for partners in how they package up their games and manage installation dependencies. You'd also still end up with lots of different versions of the installer, since as discussed above they are often targeting different D3DX versions and as such are all required. As such any improvement to avoid duplicates isn't an immediate priority, but we may be able to improve it slightly in the future.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:33 AM   #112
DogGunn AUS
 
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See this well written post by richard.eid, specifically the bolded part of the licencing agreement:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...&postcount=108
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Old 08-23-2011, 07:35 PM   #113
desolation0
 
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There isn't some be-all huge d3d installer that could hit all the d3dx files in one go either, is there?
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:06 PM   #114
dafarmer33
 
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Omg its so annoying!
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:06 PM   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #115
MikeBlaszczak
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desolation0 View Post
There isn't some be-all huge d3d installer that could hit all the d3dx files in one go either, is there?
Unfortunately not. Even if there were, we'd have to update and patch that one all the time for each game, as well.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:38 PM   #116
Amander
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBlaszczak View Post
Unfortunately not. Even if there were, we'd have to update and patch that one all the time for each game, as well.
But is it possible to fetch the proper installer from Microsoft?
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Old 08-25-2011, 01:30 AM   #117
cable
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amander View Post
But is it possible to fetch the proper installer from Microsoft?
oh my god. Steam is using the right official installer.
Each game has been built requiring version X of a direct X dll, there are hundreds of versions of this. The 'install' checks for and then installs if your missing it.

This is COMPLETELY different from the standard directx runtime.

if you skipped this step the game might not work, despite installing hundreds of other games...
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Old 08-25-2011, 12:40 PM   #118
Amander
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cable View Post
oh my god. Steam is using the right official installer.
Each game has been built requiring version X of a direct X dll, there are hundreds of versions of this. The 'install' checks for and then installs if your missing it.

This is COMPLETELY different from the standard directx runtime.

if you skipped this step the game might not work, despite installing hundreds of other games...
You didn't get what I speaked about at all.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:56 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amander View Post
But is it possible to fetch the proper installer from Microsoft?
From Microsoft, you will find these two things.
Both are the same.
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en...ylang=en&id=35
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en...s.aspx?id=8109

They are proper and they install things, but are probably not what you want. The answer you seek, has already been answered.
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:50 PM   #120
Amander
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Zo View Post
From Microsoft, you will find these two things.
Both are the same.
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en...ylang=en&id=35
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en...s.aspx?id=8109

They are proper and they install things, but are probably not what you want. The answer you seek, has already been answered.
The point is, the game developers get their non-cumulative rutimes aswell from Microsoft. And surely not from a personal email from Ballmer.
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