what has this game become..

[DJohns]

Originally Posted by wetnap

I like the fact that you remember me from another thread... when I don't even know what thread you are talking about. no verbal destruction at all that I remember, just the same old usual suspects waxing nostalgic over their lost youth and seething with bitterness over the changes to the game while being unable to support their points in any substantive way, if you think that is verbal destruction, you have to question your own judgement

The only "other guy" i've been able to find is the old man who won't upgrade his 9 year old cell phone....thats how attached to the past he was..and that isnt verbal destruction, but argumental suicide.

Seeing as 90% of your posts consisted of strawman arguments, you refusing to actually read my posts and accusing me of things I've never said and only refuting the points you felt you could while ignoring the rest like a member of WBC would have done, all while the amount of strawmans got bigger and bigger the further we got, I would say that you in fact DID get completely destroyed.

I can try finding the thread again tomorrow.

[wetnap]

Originally Posted by DJohns

Seeing as 90% of your posts consisted of strawman arguments, you refusing to actually read my posts and accusing me of things I've never said and only refuting the points you felt you could while ignoring the rest like a member of WBC would have done, all while the amount of strawmans got bigger and bigger the further we got, I would say that you in fact DID get completely destroyed.

I can try finding the thread again tomorrow.

Oh I get it... must have been arguing against you and you got butthurt...

[Rigel-]

There's been a pretty gameplay-affecting bug in the game for months. The overtime bug, most commonly seen on AD maps (Gravelpit, Gorge). Not to mention the crashes and general lack of interest in the balance of the weapons and classes. Gameplay has taken a back seat with optimization.

I don't really care about hats or new weapons for that matter. I don't mind that they exist either. I have problems with them, and the fact that they've seemingly changed the point of this game, but I've gotten over it. I just want them to put some time into making the game itself better.

I wouldn't call them greedy, but I'm not about to praise them on how they handled the game. TF2 and its community has essentially been it's test mice for the last year and a half. By going F2P they've given people a reason to DL Steam, and thus get them to buy more games after they've played with TF2. They've experimented with ingame stores, which I'll bet you'll see in DOTA2 considering how successful it's been. They added the coaching system, while great, isn't something that really makes sense to add to TF2, a more casual game (again I'm looking at you DOTA2). The direction of the game has drastically changed so they can conduct their little social and economical experiment. Fine, but at least make the game playable so that those who enjoyed what the game once was can still do so today.

[MeBot]

Well, I'm still having fun.

Shame you aren't. Each to his own, I suppose.

[dam187]

Originally Posted by MeBot

Well, I'm still having fun.

Shame you aren't. Each to his own, I suppose.

This

[The Elite Gir]

For an outlay of 20$, TF2 has had a value of over 150$ for me.

Everyone shut your (pinkhearts) for a second and listen:

Who are you insulting here? Valve.

Who made the game(Half Life) that made FPS's what they are now?. Valve.

Who made Half Life 2? Widely considered the greatest achievement of mankind in the history of gaming? Valve.

Who has been the leading light in customer service, digital distribution, and nonrestrictive DRM? Valve.

Who made the game which made the multiplayer FPS the leading genre? Valve.

Who has made you blissfully consume hundreds of hours? Valve.

Who made a game, a game so amazing that it has brought together a multimillion strong community for 4 years and counting just by itself. A game so big that it's community can be tracked in a map of the internet? Valve.

All of you spoiled brats now turn on your gods and benefactors in less than a year over a mistake in a game WHICH HASN"T EVEN ENTIRELY RUINED IT?

[neyodragon]

And then people bought call of duty 5, and paid 15 dollars a month for multiplayer.

[QWCA]

Originally Posted by Coming Second

If TF2 was pay to win, or if Valve charged you monthly for the privilege of playing it, then you'd have a point. But it isn't, they don't, and you don't.

There's something painfully ironic about a game becoming free for all to enjoy and people complaining about it because it's being, er, greedy. No. Go have a look at EA/Bioware's approach to selling ME3. That's greed. Some of you have no idea you are born, how lucky we actually are to have a company like Valve who continue to lavish free updates on a free game which was released 4 years ago for 10 quid. 20 years down the line when Activision have bought Valve out you will be clawing your eyes out in memory of these times.

Now, you may have an issue with the aesthetics of the game, with the in-game store, with bugs and framerate issues. Those are legitimate concerns, and I can see why those would be enough to put you off the game- I don't agree with you, but I see the case. So stop playing. Valve don't owe you anything. If you genuinely have been playing since 2007, you've been playing this 10 quid game for 5 years now, and have experienced about 20 major updates for free. The tools are in game to allow you to play this game free from the terrible taint of haberdashery and laser guns. So what do you want from Valve? Blood? The game you were playing in 2007, that you would have quit years ago if they'd never updated it because you got bored of it?

Cry.

Some.

More.

Why would them charging monthly change anything? I'm told by some posters on here that it doesn't affect me if others pay for things and they choose to pay for it. Valve is a corporation after all and they must make money!

[Rigel-]

Originally Posted by The Elite Gir

For an outlay of 20$, TF2 has had a value of over 150$ for me.

Everyone shut your (pinkhearts) for a second and listen:

Who are you insulting here? Valve.

Who made the game(Half Life) that made FPS's what they are now?. Valve.

Who made Half Life 2? Widely considered the greatest achievement of mankind in the history of gaming? Valve.

Who has been the leading light in customer service, digital distribution, and nonrestrictive DRM? Valve.

Who made the game which made the multiplayer FPS the leading genre? Valve.

Who has made you blissfully consume hundreds of hours? Valve.

Who made a game, a game so amazing that it has brought together a multimillion strong community for 4 years and counting just by itself. A game so big that it's community can be tracked in a map of the internet? Valve.

All of you spoiled brats now turn on your gods and benefactors in less than a year over a mistake in a game WHICH HASN"T EVEN ENTIRELY RUINED IT?

You act as though they didn't get anything in return. They've gotten millions of dollars in return, critical acclaim, and they deserve it. What they do not deserve, however, is some godly status. They did many great things, I agree, but that doesn't make them perfect. There are still issues that need to be addressed and it's kind of wrong for them to just ignore them.

We, the customers, are part of what made Valve so great. If we weren't around to download Steam and purchase their games, they would be nowhere. Not to mention for years, and even to this day, Valve has spent very little on advertising. The fans have done it for Valve for most of its history. The argument works both ways. This is a mutual relationship, the customer and the company. One benefits from the other. All the customer, like the OP, are doing is expressing their concerns about a game they purchased with their money. That's it. What Valve does with the concern is up to them, but if they're smart people, they will recognize that the opinions of their customers are valuable in keeping the company alive and striving.

Obviously they shouldn't heed everyone's concerns, because realistically they can't. However, things like bug fixes should go without mention, because they are things that just about everyone wants. They want a game that works.

[QWCA]

Originally Posted by wetnap

Still not actually providing any examples of companies that are doing better. ID games died a death of living in stasis. As said by others, even their efforts to turn quake 3 into a browser game which I did try totally failed, advertising was not paying the bills for that project and no one would pay money to play, carmack explained all this if you want to google it up, so while you complain about valve you fail to provide an example with a business model that works running on your idea of what things should be, static and without change. But you also take the position you should have more game modes, and frankly ID never did that either, no new weapons, no new game modes of note.

Anyways what did carmack end up doing, developing for consoles, where the money was. Your claims about how business can be run to fit your dream don't fit reality. Again, I had asked you for examples, quake live is the only one that even remotely resembles your dream, and it loses money.

You just sound like someone getting old resistant to change.

So what if someone has a hat, you get grumpy just because other people like to customize their characters, that is about the most crotchety mentality there is. It doesn't affect your ability to kill them or change your weapons effects then all you are complaining is like grandpa yelling at the kids for how they dress. You say the style doesn't fit? The style is general absurdity, have you watched the cinematics or listened to the voice actor lines, everything fits just fine. Arguably the ability to be able to tell apart people at a glance from their custom kit is a game play advantage, when I want to find a friend to uber it makes it that much easier.

If Valve can sustain longevity by providing meaningful updates to their games (Whether that costs money or not doesn't matter to me) I'd be fine with that. I'd be fine paying them more if what I was paying for deserved it.

I'm not fine with them adding free things to a game I previously paid for and being okay with it because it's free. I can't opt out of some of the changes they've made and that includes the poorer performance as well as the crashes.

If they want to charge through their shop for something worth charging for, fine. I'm not okay with them focusing on nothing but cosmetics and things that do nothing to really advance the game.

And no, minor stat adjustments to new weapon models and re-skinned weapons aren't what I call something worth charging for. They've found an easy way to make money from people who have made it their mission to have rare items and collect things, all the while ignoring those who would be more than willing to buy something to support TF2 if it were WORTH buying. I'm not buying a ring, I'm not buying a hat and I'm not buying a weapon that I'll eventually find in game.

What would I buy?

A optimization update (I'm serious)
A bug fix update (I'm serious)
New Game Modes
New Maps
New Teams
New Classes

And more, forget about the balance aspects, that's not my point right now. The point is, here I am, a customer who bought TF2 who would gladly pay for meaningful things to help TF2 stay alive but instead, I have to idly sit by and watch as people buy things that really don't even matter.

It helps keep the game alive and advance the game for those who are all wrapped up in to the item world and cosmetic world. It does nothing to advance the game itself.

[DietDrPepper]

You know, for all the raging, crying, and trololling the TF2 fanbase so thoroughly revels in, people seem to forget that Valve is very weirdly the most democratic "big business" out there.

What do I mean? It seems to me a lot of their business model (beyond the occasional social experimentation *steepled fingers*) is to allow fan zeitgeist to direct its evolution.

Valve has shown that they are generally compliant with fans' wishes (Holiday features, contests, cutting content creators in a portion of the profits, general support for competitive play, free hat for donating to Japan, etc.) If they goof, they're not shy about trying to mend fences (vintage-izing weapons after cutting crafting costs, undoing the drop only system, free keys last last Christmas). The real sticking point most of the haters have is the cosmetics angle.

Well, you can blame your fellow fans for that one. Community items submitted by most members are hats. Most of those hats are for popular classes ("Yay Solider!"). The Trade Economy was written and is "enforced" (heh) by the community. Heck, they even hired Tony ♥♥♥♥ing Paloma (Drunken F00l) who contributed a LOT of resources for the community (good and BAD).

Fact is, Valve is a business. But as a business, Valve does care about providing a certain service to a majority stake of the community. There seems to be a "And Now, Your Turn" aspect to Valve's glad-handing to the playerbase. Wait for your turn or don't. The "money-grubbing" aspect of it is so grimy only because suckers are falling for it. Why so outraged, player? Did you fall for it or are you mad because you can't afford to fall for it?

And if you really hate what TF2 has become, you only have to look at your fellow fans (Thanks, SPUF) for what it is now. Your fellow fans and their shallow, shallow tastes.

[QWCA]

Originally Posted by DietDrPepper

You know, for all the raging, crying, and trololling the TF2 fanbase so thoroughly revels in, people seem to forget that Valve is very weirdly the most democratic "big business" out there.

What do I mean? It seems to me a lot of their business model (beyond the occasional social experimentation *steepled fingers*) is to allow fan zeitgeist to direct its evolution.

Valve has shown that they are generally compliant with fans' wishes (Holiday features, contests, cutting content creators in a portion of the profits, general support for competitive play, etc.) If they goof, they're not shy about trying to mend fences (vintage-izing weapons after cutting crafting costs, undoing the drop only system, free keys last last Christmas). The real sticking point most of the haters have is the cosmetics angle.

Well, you can blame your fellow fans for that one. Community items submitted by most members are hats. Most of those hats are for popular classes ("Yay Solider!"). The Trade Economy was written and is "enforced" (heh) by the community. Heck, they even hired Tony ♥♥♥♥ing Paloma (Drunken F00l) who contributed a LOT of resources for the community (good and BAD).

Fact is, Valve is a business. But as a business, Valve does care about providing a certain service to a majority stake of the community. There seems to be a "And Now, Your Turn" aspect to Valve's glad-handing to the playerbase. Wait for it or don't.

And if you really hate what TF2 has become, you only have to look at your fellow fans (Thanks, SPUF) for what it is now. Your fellow fans and their shallow, shallow tastes.

And I do and I see it. Doesn't make it any less of a problem to me.

[DietDrPepper]

Originally Posted by QWCA

And I do and I see it. Doesn't make it any less of a problem to me.

I get the feeling that most people who are upset with the state of TF2 are the same people upset with the ills of society in general.

Truly, hell is other players.

[Comrade Azza]

People are still whinging about this?

If you don't like it, go away.

TF2 is also free to uninstall!

[QWCA]

Originally Posted by Comrade Azza

People are still whinging about this?

If you don't like it, go away.

TF2 is also free to uninstall!

You're whining about whining.

If you don't like it, don't read the thread.

SPUF is also free to not read!