About that ending...

2guapo · 02-21-2012, 06:49 AM

Spoilers obviously,

About this cause and effect and restoring balance to the force, Wake had to make a compromise so that his dear Alice would survive the story. So what does he do? He turns Cauldron Lake into Cauldron Ocean!

He had two goals: rescue Alice, stop the presence.

Didn't he royally screw up the second objective? If I didn't know any better, he played right into Jagger's plan, the dark presence would grow in power and Alice would be allowed to live.

That's what I got out of it, and i think it's awesome.

Bite · 02-21-2012, 06:50 AM

In all honesty I can say I did not understand the ending at all, and yet I somehow loved it.

Deathsyt · 02-21-2012, 06:53 AM

As you say, everything has to has to be a compromise. But I took it as his compromise for saving Alice was him taking her place, and his choice to expand the power of the darkness was in return for saving Bright Falls - To bring back all of those that were killed because of his story. Although, he still kind of screwed that up. It seems to me that expanding the power of the darkness basically just gave those that he saved a rather short extension.

Kradath · 02-21-2012, 06:54 AM

You can't destroy the darkness, just as you cannot destroy the light. The compromise was that he rescued Alice by trapping himself into the Lake.

Zane made the mistake that he thought he could simply use all his power to change everything to be nice. Wake learned from that and made a compromise. And no, he did not fail, he destroyed the very powerful agent of the darkness being Jagger.

2guapo · 02-21-2012, 06:57 AM

"he destroyed the very powerful agent of the darkness being Jagger"

I'm with the guys that say that Jagger is just a skin to wear and after Wake ignited the clicker in her chest, the presence moved onto Nightingale.

Kradath · 02-21-2012, 07:00 AM

Yes, but it obviously can not act without a shell. If the shell is so unimportant nothing could stop the presence anyway and everything's doomed from the beginning.

The agent is important for the presence to get a foothold into the real world beyond the depths and now it basically has to start over. Considering that Wake could "revive" everyone by killing Jagger this has to be true, otherwise it would not make sense.

All the remarks in the game talking about the shell are there to show that it is not the Zane's Jagger anymore, that doesn't mean that the shell is not important.

2guapo · 02-21-2012, 07:05 AM

Regardless of it's conduit/shell/skin, it's hard to deny that ulitmately it got what it was asking for. Being an ocean it has now multiplied its reach many times over.

Reminds me of MGS1 where they had you chasing a goal to achieve X but in the end you were actually being used to to achieve Y.

Any which way I look at it, I feel like I've been played here.

spyrochaete · 02-21-2012, 07:09 AM

I'm paraphrasing but in Alan's final speech he talks about the balance between light and dark, easy and difficult, risk and reward. He sacrifices his freedom to give Alice hers.

I took the ending to mean that Alan felt that he was capable of maintaining this balance unlike Tom Zane who only solved the problem temporarily (maybe by destroying\sinking the cabin in Cauldron Lake).

Finally, my assumption of the "it wasn't a lake, it was an ocean" statement was Alan's realization of something that was already there, not something he had just created. Maybe you guys are right that he invented this - it would be consistent with his comments that you can't have light without shadow.

2guapo · 02-21-2012, 07:13 AM

Wow, that's deep Spyro. I like your explanation of "realization" over "creation." Makes it more sinister, makes me feel less like a tool.

MADDOGGE · 02-21-2012, 07:18 AM

I agree. I think his comment about the ocean to me has more to do with with his realization/vocalization that the lake was just the tip of the iceberg so to speak than his claiming he caused it to become an ocean.

Deathsyt · 02-21-2012, 07:20 AM

I had been somewhat thinking that, too. But at the same time, since he said there always has to be balance, I felt that his taking Alice's place wasn't really enough to balance out saving the town.

spyrochaete · 02-21-2012, 07:22 AM

I was convinced that Alan just realized the "depth" of the darkness in the lake, but now that I read the comments here I wonder if Alan just created it then and there - more darkness means more light for his wife.

What a great ending.

MADDOGGE · 02-21-2012, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyrochaete

... now that I read the comments here I wonder if Alan just created it then and there - more darkness means more light for his wife.

Interesting thought. A great story should always make one think.

Kradath · 02-21-2012, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MADDOGGE

I agree. I think his comment about the ocean to me has more to do with with his realization/vocalization that the lake was just the tip of the iceberg so to speak than his claiming he caused it to become an ocean.

Now a realize how some come to their view as that was exactly what I thought as well.

Some think here that Wake made it an ocean, I doubt it.

I think it's more Agartha style, that the lake is not the only place where the darkness exists but one of many connected hubs.

02-21-2012, 06:49 AM	#1
2guapo Join Date: Jun 2011 Reputation: 30 Posts: 128	About that ending... Spoilers obviously, About this cause and effect and restoring balance to the force, Wake had to make a compromise so that his dear Alice would survive the story. So what does he do? He turns Cauldron Lake into Cauldron Ocean! He had two goals: rescue Alice, stop the presence. Didn't he royally screw up the second objective? If I didn't know any better, he played right into Jagger's plan, the dark presence would grow in power and Alice would be allowed to live. That's what I got out of it, and i think it's awesome.

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02-21-2012, 06:50 AM	#2
Bite Join Date: Jun 2011 Reputation: 156 Posts: 745	In all honesty I can say I did not understand the ending at all, and yet I somehow loved it.

02-21-2012, 06:53 AM	#3
Deathsyt Join Date: May 2011 Reputation: 87 Posts: 737	As you say, everything has to has to be a compromise. But I took it as his compromise for saving Alice was him taking her place, and his choice to expand the power of the darkness was in return for saving Bright Falls - To bring back all of those that were killed because of his story. Although, he still kind of screwed that up. It seems to me that expanding the power of the darkness basically just gave those that he saved a rather short extension.

02-21-2012, 06:54 AM	#4
Kradath Join Date: Apr 2009 Reputation: 198 Posts: 1,518	You can't destroy the darkness, just as you cannot destroy the light. The compromise was that he rescued Alice by trapping himself into the Lake. Zane made the mistake that he thought he could simply use all his power to change everything to be nice. Wake learned from that and made a compromise. And no, he did not fail, he destroyed the very powerful agent of the darkness being Jagger.

02-21-2012, 06:57 AM	#5
2guapo Join Date: Jun 2011 Reputation: 30 Posts: 128	"he destroyed the very powerful agent of the darkness being Jagger" I'm with the guys that say that Jagger is just a skin to wear and after Wake ignited the clicker in her chest, the presence moved onto Nightingale.

02-21-2012, 07:00 AM	#6
Kradath Join Date: Apr 2009 Reputation: 198 Posts: 1,518	Yes, but it obviously can not act without a shell. If the shell is so unimportant nothing could stop the presence anyway and everything's doomed from the beginning. The agent is important for the presence to get a foothold into the real world beyond the depths and now it basically has to start over. Considering that Wake could "revive" everyone by killing Jagger this has to be true, otherwise it would not make sense. All the remarks in the game talking about the shell are there to show that it is not the Zane's Jagger anymore, that doesn't mean that the shell is not important.

02-21-2012, 07:05 AM	#7
2guapo Join Date: Jun 2011 Reputation: 30 Posts: 128	Regardless of it's conduit/shell/skin, it's hard to deny that ulitmately it got what it was asking for. Being an ocean it has now multiplied its reach many times over. Reminds me of MGS1 where they had you chasing a goal to achieve X but in the end you were actually being used to to achieve Y. Any which way I look at it, I feel like I've been played here.

02-21-2012, 07:09 AM	#8
spyrochaete Join Date: Feb 2007 Reputation: 362 Posts: 3,814	I'm paraphrasing but in Alan's final speech he talks about the balance between light and dark, easy and difficult, risk and reward. He sacrifices his freedom to give Alice hers. I took the ending to mean that Alan felt that he was capable of maintaining this balance unlike Tom Zane who only solved the problem temporarily (maybe by destroying\sinking the cabin in Cauldron Lake). Finally, my assumption of the "it wasn't a lake, it was an ocean" statement was Alan's realization of something that was already there, not something he had just created. Maybe you guys are right that he invented this - it would be consistent with his comments that you can't have light without shadow.

02-21-2012, 07:13 AM	#9
2guapo Join Date: Jun 2011 Reputation: 30 Posts: 128	Wow, that's deep Spyro. I like your explanation of "realization" over "creation." Makes it more sinister, makes me feel less like a tool.

02-21-2012, 07:18 AM	#10
MADDOGGE Join Date: Jan 2008 Reputation: 8203 Posts: 25,030	I agree. I think his comment about the ocean to me has more to do with with his realization/vocalization that the lake was just the tip of the iceberg so to speak than his claiming he caused it to become an ocean.

02-21-2012, 07:20 AM	#11
Deathsyt Join Date: May 2011 Reputation: 87 Posts: 737	I had been somewhat thinking that, too. But at the same time, since he said there always has to be balance, I felt that his taking Alice's place wasn't really enough to balance out saving the town.

02-21-2012, 07:22 AM	#12
spyrochaete Join Date: Feb 2007 Reputation: 362 Posts: 3,814	I was convinced that Alan just realized the "depth" of the darkness in the lake, but now that I read the comments here I wonder if Alan just created it then and there - more darkness means more light for his wife. What a great ending.