so GLAD there was one smurf that was real at the end.... ( spoiler kinda )

[TheDarkChaplain]

Originally Posted by Rahab_mx

Space Marines started out in Legions of approximately 10,000 strong (some larger and some other smaller) then were broken down into Chapters, according to the codex each chapter is around 1,000 marines divided in 10 companies (100 each).

During the 2nd founding the Ultramarines were broken into 17 chapters (and don’t need to remind that it were the ultramarines who first came with the idea of breaking the legions into chapters) so 17 chapters 1000 strong each = 17,000 and that was THE largest chapter

Like it or not 6000 is the closest the current chapters can get to the old day confirmed legions and those huge numbers you are pulling came way after the rulebooks (codex) were released so the fans could have enough room to create their own chapters without having to argue with guys who call fools and liars to anyone who does not agree with them.

The Ultramarines were about 250.000 strong before Calth

Today, at Calth, twenty of the XIII’s twenty-five Chapters will conjunct for deployment. Two hundred companies. Two hundred thousand legionaries. The remainder will maintain garrison positions throughout the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar.

from Know No Fear, for example.

There is no list of chapters emerged from the Ultramarines during the second founding, but there were at least 23 counted.
This means that at least 24.000 Ultramarines survived past the Horus Heresy, making them the most dominant Astartes faction in the galaxy. This is still about ten times as much as the Raven Guard put onto the table at that time.

The 2nd Edition Ultramarines Codex lists 12 Second Founding chapters as examples, with the note that the list is incomplete and only includes confirmed chapters of the 2nd.
The same early book describes that the 1000-Astartes-Chapter was a guideline for easier control rather than an absolute rule.
Followed is that explanation by the typical Age of Apostasy and lost records disclaimer.
There there also many many more foundings, with the 21st being largest since the 2nd, and was called the Cursed Founding.

And look, even here, in 2nd Edition, the minimum number of Ultramarines successors was 23. over 24.000 Ultramariens after the Codex Astartes was declared to be followed and the 2nd Founding was put into action.

And this is the amount of Marines of the Ultramarines that survived the 7 years of the Heresy, including the events on Calth AND the decade after Horus' death, playing policemen trying to hold the Imperium together since the other Legions were too decimated.

So no, 6000 is not even close to Legion size.

[Astartes_]

Ahhahah....don't even bother debating legion size....in some of the codex's and books(Fulgrim)a legion numbers around ten thousand, in others (first heretic, deliverance lost) they number around one hundred thousand or more! I believe they made a change to lore in the later books and now it seems even a small legion like the Raven guard numbers one hundred thousand strong...

[Argel Tal]

Originally Posted by Jibberish

I believe the ultramarines are also significantly over the 1,000-strong codex size. They were also one of the largest legions--in the 40,000's, if i remember correctly, along with the world bearers.

Oh, and the Space Wolves are also much larger than a typical 1,000 man chapter. Their 12 Great Companies are full independant armies, they're probably closer to 10,000 strong, in my guess.

Tha spacewolve arent even close to 10,000. They have 13 great companies. The 13th lost in the warp. They average around 120 marines per company so your looking at 1,440 marines. Definetly no more than 1500 total including dreds and techmarines.

[Argel Tal]

Originally Posted by Astartes_

Ahhahah....don't even bother debating legion size....in some of the codex's and books(Fulgrim)a legion numbers around ten thousand, in others (first heretic, deliverance lost) they number around one hundred thousand or more! I believe they made a change to lore in the later books and now it seems even a small legion like the Raven guard numbers one hundred thousand strong...

In the HH book Fulgrim they refer to the 10,000 marines as before Fulgrim was found. That was the reason they fought alongside the Luna Wolves for so long and the reason Horus and Fulgrim were so close. They were indeed closer to the 100,000 mark. The smallest Legion during the pre heresy was the Alpha Legion with approx 80,000

[warmaster670]

Originally Posted by Elensar

That imperium NEEDS another civil war to try and restart its technological advancement. It has become stale under the leadership of that golden throne coffin dodger. Rambling on about heritics and blasphomy etc ffs its like the westborogh baptist church survied to lead mankind or something.

So the Imperium needs to die? because if anyone thinks theres gonna be another civil war that wont cause the Imperium to be destroyed is a fool, it cant barely handle what it has.
And really, if you think that trying to weed out heresy, which can easily turn an entire planet to chaos, is a bad thing, you clearly dont know how bad it is, its like saying that genestealer cults are a good thing.

Also, the Adeptus Mechanicus is in charge of technology, and the Ecclesiarchy is the church, the Emperor doesnt directly lead the Imperium, the reason the Imperium has become stale is BECAUSE the Emperor isn't leading it,if the emperor was still intact, he never would have let the Imperium devolve into this.

[Argel Tal]

Originally Posted by Elensar

That imperium NEEDS another civil war to try and restart its technological advancement. It has become stale under the leadership of that golden throne coffin dodger. Rambling on about heritics and blasphomy etc ffs its like the westborogh baptist church survied to lead mankind or something.

You do know that tech wise the imperium was alot more advanced before the Heresy. It was after the Heresy that everyone started guarding all there secrets and became religious nuts. If there is another civil war I think the would be back in the old west.

[Graywind]

Originally Posted by TheDarkChaplain

According to the Codex Black Templars, they have about 5000 to 6000 men at arms. While that is much bigger than a codex-conform chapter is supposed to have, it is nowhere even near the Legion sizes.

That's more than the Post-Isstvan Raven Guard could muster (around 3-4000), but even they were about 90000 Marines strong before. The Ultramarines were much much bigger than that as well, as were the Word Bearers and most other Legions.
To say that the current Black Templars come close to Legion size is foolish and false, nothing more.

Chapters that have no home world can hide there numbers by the fact they are always in space. Also a Company is only 100 fighting men. That's not including the pilots and drivers. other wise only you start ralling in tanks you men on the ground start to get small once you start to use the equipment.

[Astartes_]

Originally Posted by Argel Tal

In the HH book Fulgrim they refer to the 10,000 marines as before Fulgrim was found. That was the reason they fought alongside the Luna Wolves for so long and the reason Horus and Fulgrim were so close. They were indeed closer to the 100,000 mark. The smallest Legion during the pre heresy was the Alpha Legion with approx 80,000

Ah huh? why don't you actually READ Fulgrim? at the end of the book describing the drop site massacre Mcneill states that the loyalist forces number 35 000 combined!(full legions too) that's about 10 000 for each legion give or take, as it is stated in MANY other sources form GW, after it was changed that is.... so WTF are you trying to argue? that they didn't change it? I HAVE PRINTED PROOF THEY DID! also.... in a thousand son's they start out with about 10,000 be for the SW and Custodies attack and at the end they have just over 1000 Astartes left!(hence the thousand sons) ........100 000 sorcerers of prospero would have annihilated the SW and custodies with ease...again I'm not sure what you're trying to argue but GW did change the cannon, for better or worse......and yes, the ultra marines have 250 000 Astartes at their disposal, good bye word bearers.

[TheDarkChaplain]

page-sources and quotes would be nice

At some points about 30.000 Astartes are cornering Ferrus Manus and his Iron Hands, but thats not all the Marines that were on Isstvan at that time, and shortly after "thousands upon thousands" of Drop Pods descended onto the surface, which made Horus smile. A drop pod usually carries 10 to 12 Marines or a Dreadnought. one of those "thousands upon thousands" would thus be about 10.000 of Marines, and there were plenty of these waves.

Ferrus Manus is also described to have 40.000 loyal Astartes under his command during the Drop Site Massacre, and we all should be aware of how the Cyclops left the main bulk of his force behind on his hurry to Isstvan.
Thousands of traitors were slaughtered in the opening moments of their assault on the loyalists.

What had begun as a massed strike against the traitors’ position
was rapidly turning into one of the largest engagements of the
entire Great Crusade. All told, over sixty thousand Astartes warriors
clashed on the dusky plains of Isstvan V, and for all the
wrong reasons, this battle was soon to go down in the annals of
Imperial history as one of the most epic confrontations ever
fought.

That is just a small part of the wars on Isstvan, and the conflict lasted for a long, long time.

Thousands were dying every minute, the slaughter terrible to
behold.

Screams and
blood filled his senses, the chaotic nature of the battlefield a morass
of thousands upon thousands of warring Astartes.

Tens of thousands of his fellow Astartes poured onto the surface
of Isstvan V, and in a single stroke, the loyalist force was
more than doubled in size.

Solid waves of cheering crashed
against the reviewing stand, howls of adulation torn from tens of
thousands of throats.

Over three thousand vessels jostled for position above the
darkened fifth planet, their holds bursting with warriors sworn
to the Warmaster.

Shall I go on looking for numbers in Fulgrim?


Why the Thousand Sons lost? Because they never were as skilled in actual combat as the Wolves were. They relied on multiple layers of psychic abilities, from visions of the future to their offensive skills.
Not only were the Wolves stronger and harder, but also brought Nullmaidens with them, rendering the warp-skills of the Sons useless. Not even Ahriman was able to penetrate the field surrounding the Sisters of Silence.
There were also bombardements involved, and Magnus himself was broken and idle for the greatest part of the battle, until he faced Russ, and almost lost his life.

There was nothing the Thousand Sons could have done to repell the Vlka Fenryka. They were robbed of their psychic talents and, as it was well explained in A Thousand Sons, they relied too heavily on these skills, neglecting actual fighting. The different cults all complimented each other by adding their skills to help each other, which made them incredibly strong. Disrupt that network of foresight and lightning bolts and the whole force crumbles.

They were butchered, and only when all was lost, Magnus dared to bring his sons to the Planet of Sorcerers. 1242 of the Thousand Sons survived the razing, and most of these showed the very signs of mutation the whole legion was suffering from before Magnus "fixed" them.

[Argel Tal]

Originally Posted by Astartes_

Ah huh? why don't you actually READ Fulgrim? at the end of the book describing the drop site massacre Mcneill states that the loyalist forces number 35 000 combined!(full legions too) that's about 10 000 for each legion give or take, as it is stated in MANY other sources form GW, after it was changed that is.... so WTF are you trying to argue? that they didn't change it? I HAVE PRINTED PROOF THEY DID! also.... in a thousand son's they start out with about 10,000 be for the SW and Custodies attack and at the end they have just over 1000 Astartes left!(hence the thousand sons) ........100 000 sorcerers of prospero would have annihilated the SW and custodies with ease...again I'm not sure what you're trying to argue but GW did change the cannon, for better or worse......and yes, the ultra marines have 250 000 Astartes at their disposal, good bye word bearers.

Well Astartes for one I have read all the HH books and Listened to all of the audio books. Not sure if you have read them all yet but the Raven Guard when they landed had 80,000 troops. Now that is confirmed both in the book Deliverance Lost and the Audio Drama Raven’s Flight. So that right there is almost triple of what you are quoting just from one legion. I also have printed proof as does anyone else who read it. I don’t have Fulgrim in front of me but I will look and make sure to inform you with page number if you would like and all the other books that deal with the drop site massacre. Capital letters doesn’t make things right that aren’t. Besides Fulgrim is considered one of the worst wrote and vaguely correct books in the series.

As with a thousand sons, that name isn’t actually literally meaning they are a thousand sons. They had more than a thousand marines assault the fang in the book battle of the fang. As for the battle of Prospero the Space Wolves were designed to destroy other legions. They had the upper hand of surprise and the fact that Magnus wouldn’t condone his marines to fight and wouldn’t fight with them until the end. Plus as The Dark Chaplain pointed out the Wolves came with both Custodes and Null maidens plus as I said they were created to destroy other space marine legions. Who do you think purged the second and the eleventh legions? This is also confirmed in the books and audio dramas. It doesn’t say why it was done or why but it confirmed it was the Wolves.

Oh should also note that it is stated in the audio drama Raven's Flight that the Raven Guard was one of the smallest legions participating in the drop site massacre.

[Astartes_]

Originally Posted by TheDarkChaplain

page-sources and quotes would be nice

Ferris Manus is also described to have 40.000 loyal Astartes under his command during the Drop Site Massacre, and we all should be aware of how the Cyclops left the main bulk of his force behind on his hurry to Isstvan.
Thousands of traitors were slaughtered in the opening moments of their assault on the loyalists.

lol....no wonder you're disputing my fact you cant even remember that they called Ferrus
GORGON not cyclops.........



....You don't seem to get it that GW changed the fiction when ADB pressed them for a final number on how large a legion was(he said this in an interview!) hence The first heretic and deliverance lost.Also the masterpiece known as "Fulgrim" was Superior to deliverance lost in every way, maybe you didn't like it tal but a lot of people did including many critics.On the other hand deliverance lost has suffered some of the worst reviews of any HH book, on par with decent of angles and battle for the furious abyss, and I just have to agree with them.

The Space wolves didn't defeat The thousand sons not alone anyway....what actually happened is that Magnus wanted them to be punished so dispersed the entire Thousands sons fleet and even killed one of his captains to keep the arrival of the emperors forces secret so a defense could not be planned.But yes they were defeated in the end by MAGNUS in part, by the Space wolves by the large custodes force and by the sisters of silence....hardly fair considering they were under strength to begin with...if the space wolves were sent alone and Magnus ready to fight from the start then it would have not even been a battle but the absolute oblivion of the Space wolves their "fighting skills" not even close to a match for the powers wielded by the sorcerers of Prospero, I mean it says as much in the book.....

[noman_ex]

Originally Posted by Argel Tal

Well Astartes for one I have read all the HH books and Listened to all of the audio books. Not sure if you have read them all yet but the Raven Guard when they landed had 80,000 troops. Now that is confirmed both in the book Deliverance Lost and the Audio Drama Raven’s Flight. So that right there is almost triple of what you are quoting just from one legion. I also have printed proof as does anyone else who read it. I don’t have Fulgrim in front of me but I will look and make sure to inform you with page number if you would like and all the other books that deal with the drop site massacre. Capital letters doesn’t make things right that aren’t. Besides Fulgrim is considered one of the worst wrote and vaguely correct books in the series.

As with a thousand sons, that name isn’t actually literally meaning they are a thousand sons. They had more than a thousand marines assault the fang in the book battle of the fang. As for the battle of Prospero the Space Wolves were designed to destroy other legions. They had the upper hand of surprise and the fact that Magnus wouldn’t condone his marines to fight and wouldn’t fight with them until the end. Plus as The Dark Chaplain pointed out the Wolves came with both Custodes and Null maidens plus as I said they were created to destroy other space marine legions. Who do you think purged the second and the eleventh legions? This is also confirmed in the books and audio dramas. It doesn’t say why it was done or why but it confirmed it was the Wolves.

Oh should also note that it is stated in the audio drama Raven's Flight that the Raven Guard was one of the smallest legions participating in the drop site massacre.

That is correct. According to the book, Thousand Sons, the only time when the number of thousand sons astartes actually fell to just a 1000 was right before Magnus "saved" them from mutations. The mutation rate reached its peak when the Emperor finally found Magnus, and supposedly all of the astartes lost consciousness at the critical moment. By the time they woke up, there were only a thousand of them left. But there's a long period of time between the discovery of Magnus and the invasion of the SW. Their numbers most likely increased significantly since then.

On to the size of Alpha legion, I don't think we can actually trust anything. The Alpha legion is the most secretive of all. Throne, most people didn't even know there are two Primarch in the Alpha legion. Their actual size might be a lot bigger than stated.