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Old 01-21-2012, 03:36 PM   #76
Dax77
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schierke View Post
Of course. You take away all but the default equipment for a class, and it's going to become weaker.
Not for a class, but for a specific class: pyro.

Any other vanilla class has no problem competing with its counterparts.

The problem is, pyro is completely dependent upon unlocks.
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Old 01-21-2012, 03:48 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schierke View Post
Of course. You take away all but the default equipment for a class, and it's going to become weaker.
Actually, you take away all but the default equipment for most classes and they become STRONGER, minus a few melee weapons.

Pyro is the only class that becomes noticeably WEAKER at stock level.

He is the only class (Shhh Heavy) that has unlock loadouts that COMPLETELY outclass the stock in every way, shape, and form.
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Old 01-21-2012, 03:50 PM   #78
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It's definitely overpowered.

The number of times I've seen a pyro taunt in the middle of the fight and get away with it was astounding. There is something wrong when 2-3 people are attacking the pyro during the taunt and he survives and kills us all with the crits. I learned to just run away when this happens, and of course when that happens our team loses the front lines and whatever ground we've established. So far it seems hard to counter whenever the pyro arbitrarily decides to hit the "I win" button.

If there are no soldiers on the other team, it's a straight upgrade. Lack of airblast helps the balance, but there still needs to be some more downsides. Longer weapon switch times might help. Nerfing the health regen speed should be good, too, because being able to blatantly taunt in front of your enemies and survive makes me die a little inside.

The "cone" of fire also suffers from the infuriating thing where the particle range seem to extend 5 feet longer than what the flames actually indicate. Combined with TF2's wonky netcode, sometimes you see pyros catch you on fire while WM1'ing from 15 feet away.

From what I understand, this weapon benefits WM1 tactics greatly, which is frowned upon by a lot of people. In my opinion I'd rather have a weapon that discourages this style of play, especially when they can get away with using such poor tactics by regaining health via the taunt.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:59 PM   #79
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@Squishpoke

If you're being killed by W+M1, then someone is at fault here.

The Pyro needs to either spend a fair amount of time flare / Det spamming to build or kill 1-2 enemies before using it, so he's earned it. The taunt is meant to be an opportunity for his enemies to run out of effective range and then kill him after the damage resistance wears off.
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:08 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishpoke View Post
It's definitely overpowered.

The number of times I've seen a pyro taunt in the middle of the fight and get away with it was astounding. There is something wrong when 2-3 people are attacking the pyro during the taunt and he survives and kills us all with the crits. I learned to just run away when this happens, and of course when that happens our team loses the front lines and whatever ground we've established. So far it seems hard to counter whenever the pyro arbitrarily decides to hit the "I win" button.
You are attacking a pyro while he is taunting and having the resistance boost. How idiotic is that.

Put a bit of distance and WAIT for the taunt to FINISH.

Then shoot the pyro.

Unlike the spy the pyro cannot move while having 90% damage resistance. Nor can he shoot.

Its kinda like why you dont shoot at people when they are ubered as a heavy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishpoke View Post
If there are no soldiers on the other team, it's a straight upgrade. Lack of airblast helps the balance, but there still needs to be some more downsides. Longer weapon switch times might help. Nerfing the health regen speed should be good, too, because being able to blatantly taunt in front of your enemies and survive makes me die a little inside.
Incorrect. Airblast is useful for pinning enemy movement. It is more devastating against scouts than soldiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishpoke View Post
The "cone" of fire also suffers from the infuriating thing where the particle range seem to extend 5 feet longer than what the flames actually indicate. Combined with TF2's wonky netcode, sometimes you see pyros catch you on fire while WM1'ing from 15 feet away.
Blame ping. Also, flames are not lag compensated. Its your own fault for playing with 300 ping. That is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishpoke View Post
From what I understand, this weapon benefits WM1 tactics greatly, which is frowned upon by a lot of people. In my opinion I'd rather have a weapon that discourages this style of play, especially when they can get away with using such poor tactics by regaining health via the taunt.
W+M1 is not OP. It never was.

It is only frowned upon because IT DOESN'T WORK.

The current logic is that the pyro should not be able to kill stuff with his primary, which is... weird to say the least. The Phlog merely makes the flamethrower more viable, which is not a bad thing.

In fact, if W+M1 actually worked, there would be less hate for it (since right now its seen as a tactic only used by noobs).

Last edited by go123452: 01-22-2012 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:57 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by JuncoPartner View Post
Please.. don't compare the phlog to the liberty launcher... Disappointed really, because all this is the same recycled arguments I've been hearing complaining about the phlog. It is about playstyle, and common sense, if things are spammy and sentrys are shutting you down you would just switch weapons. You wouldn't play scout in that environment would you?

The phlog works on generally high skill servers, I've made it work, and I've seen other make it work. It's more dependant on the map, and the classes at play on both teams. If you have a skilled team to work with. Reliable medics, co-ordinated pushes and most importantly teamwork and that works great with the phlog, because it really leans on these things to excel. With a bunch of spammy derps however, you're forced to roam, and it it not great for roaming at all.

It's fine hearing opinions, I knew people were going to hate the phlog, and I thought I was going to hate it too. I thought exactly what you're saying now actually. But saying you're knocking some sense into this phlog debate by just repeating the same arguments against the seemingly quite few players who enjoy it just strikes me as silly.

The weapon is a toy, a damn destructive toy, it doesn't need any tweaks to it.
Sure, it CAN work assuming your entire team is working together 100% of the time and you can utilise that 100% of the time and you're never having to actually fight something yourself. No Airblast means anything and anybody good just destroys you:
  • No movement control
  • No spam control
  • No ‹ber blocking
  • No way to deal with ranged firepower
  • No way of disoriŽnting the enemy

It absolutely baffles me how people like you can look at all the arguments given on why the Phlog is garbage against good players and still honestly believe that it isn't garbage. You're not even presenting an actual argument, you're just saying "well I've seen differently so you're wrong".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rec0nKn1ght View Post
I think this debate is a bit premature. Pubbers need time to adapt, they don't instantly assess a weapon like some people. Behaviour will change. Personally I think the phlog is fine, choose a different one if it doesn't suit the situation.
If you need more than a few hours to adapt to the weapon in all but the details, you're terrible and shouldn't be talking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dax77 View Post
Not for a class, but for a specific class: pyro.

Any other vanilla class has no problem competing with its counterparts.

The problem is, pyro is completely dependent upon unlocks.
Wrong. If neither side is using unlocks, the Pyro is easily able to get along with the rest.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:00 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff View Post
Wrong. If neither side is using unlocks, the Pyro is easily able to get along with the rest.
He can, but he does so in the wrong areas. He was supposed to be a disruption, harassment, and close quarters class, but his method of harassment is unsafe, a lot of his disruption is aimed at two particular classes, and while CQC is possible, so much is left to chance and risk at that range that it really isn't an enjoyable limitation in TF2's environment. What the vanilla pyro is really successful at in your average pub environment is spy-checking and projectile defense.

And that's cool and all if you're into that kind of stuff, I like the airblast, but that isn't a good foundation to build the class upon; it should have been an unlock, not a tag-on to the original flamethrower. You make pyro a good class by addressing the flames, making it usable farther than seven feet and skill-indexing afterburn, ammo consumption, tracking, increasing fire's role and reducing its annoyance by making it fast-acting, fast-dying, scaled in time and dps based on direct damage done. Or something like that.



I'm rambling. The problem with pyro isn't that he's "useless" or underpowered, it's that he can't be played in a way that is fun and enjoyable for the player, outside of making reflects and laughing at the people you just counter-airshot.

Last edited by Blue Warrior: 01-24-2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:28 PM   #83
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this topic is an umbrella

which will slowly drift back down into the depths of the subforum if not kept adrift
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