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Old 03-04-2012, 10:56 PM   #76
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Don't forget apologists jumping to man the defences.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:39 PM   #77
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This has been some of the happiest 60USD I have ever spent on a game. I like how the original post didn't mention that the $60 and DLC trend has come from the console impact on pc gaming.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:05 AM   #78
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nvm...
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:49 AM   #79
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59.99 on Origin. Just checked.
and I checked while posting my comment... it's still $79.99 on Origin for me.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:04 AM   #80
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and I checked while posting my comment... it's still $79.99 on Origin for me.
You must be in a different region, it's still showing 59.99 for me.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:27 PM   #81
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The price is acceptable for a new game, and especially such a long RPG.

Myself I have bought many many games and I really couldnt so I developed a maximum amount I'll pay ~35$ So usually I wait for some deals
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:54 AM   #82
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Don't let OP know that they actually already had finished the intros to not one, but two DLCs and even shipped the original game already with them "inside", thus implying they either already had the DLC mostly done/done or were developing the DLC content seperately as solely a "tack-on" cash-cow project; i.e. purely as a business strategy.

Which might be perfectly legit from a business standpoint(and here we actually do have a proper main game with length in and of itself), but does feel a lot like a development in the way games are made that is progressively optimizing itself towards extorting as much money as possible from a playerbase.

I'd rather push more of my money towards the "Pay what you like" Indies, than reward models / attitudes like this(milk them for all its worth!).

How can game developers ask you to be "honest" towards them and never pirate, hack or whatever else with their precious IP, but on the other hand work day and night to make your life more miserable(GFWL, online accounts, DRM, always-online sillyness, etc pp) and exploit you("Oh, you want the same complete game as the guy who has more money to spend than you / everyone else? Tough tee-tay!")? And allowing mods? Open formats? Unencrypted inis/cfgs? Modkits? Fuggeddaboutit!

Incentivising does not work this way.

(It also doesn't work the Syndicate way; i.e. a game so overbloomed and consolized that you cannot help but feel insulted. 40% of the game was hammering the space bar/a button to open doors that could have just as well opened with a single press. Makes me feel intentionally harassed and degraded quite frankly, and I'm not joking or being hyperbolic on that. Its just sad. Just as sad as having to "win" a game by doing even MORE of the mashing. Its idiotic and not what gaming is about: Fun / thought and challenge. UGH! Syndicate is the poster child for games that need boycotting..and then they have the cheek to include a "Plz crackers, have a heart, our game is sooo good and worth paying for, join us instead" NFO. Disgusting.)

Last edited by somerandom: 03-07-2012 at 05:07 AM.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by somerandom View Post
does feel a lot like a development in the way games are made that is progressively optimizing itself towards extortion as much money as possible from a playerbase.
That's how all business works, welcome to the real world ;-)
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:09 AM   #84
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That's how all business works, welcome to the real world ;-)
You wrote a really good review in another thread then you post something banal like this.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:12 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by dannythefool View Post
That's how all business works, welcome to the real world ;-)
You may notice me mentioning the indie scene as a counter-example(Humble Indie Bundle, slight variation on Indieroyale and others, various devs on their own as well; all setting either a freely choosable price or a bare-bone minimum with open-end pay-what-you want).

Also compare how much content Terraria has tacked on for absolutely free(minecraft as well, others; Valve also stands out majorly here for buy once, get years of addons/support on L4D2 e.g.) to the base game since selling it started and then compare to the crush-their-souls DLC logic the AAAs employ(Bioware and friends, hello).

Notch made millions; the HIB sold very well(HIB 4: 380k+ units, $2M+, HIB3: 372k+ and $2M+) on most packs, Valve is doing okayish..extorting your customers until they bleed isn't the only viable path here, and it is up to us whom to reward and encourage with our wallets.

Me, I vote nay to extortion and yayyy to cool people.

Last edited by somerandom: 03-07-2012 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:37 AM   #86
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Notch made millions
And how many other people manage to do that with a broken half-finished game with little to no production values? Yeah it can work, but if you're an actual business and you have to win over some actual investors, or as a new studio, a publisher, you'll probably be more successful if you stick to what's tried and true. Currently that seems to mean new games for $50-$60 or your country's equivalent and useless day 1 DLC.

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the HIB sold very well(HIB 4: 380k+ units, $2M+, HIB3: 372k+ and $2M+) on most packs
Yeah, $2 million is really not that much for seven games.

I totally understand where you're coming from, but at the end of the day what you're saying is that you want the price point and marketing strategy of the humble bundle or indie games in general, but applied to games with a multi-million dollar budget that you're also interested in playing (or you would not post here).

If it was so easy to make games with the production values of a $60 title, then indie devs would be making them...

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Me, I vote nay to extortion and yayyy to cool people.
Now what I don't understand is the whole "extortion" argument. How is it extortion when you are offered the chance to buy something in addition to the base game?

Previously you also wrote about wanting the same complete game that someone gets who has more money available to spend - but how is that different from everything else you can buy? Would you complain that other people get faster cars because they have more money?
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:12 AM   #87
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you'll probably be more successful if you stick to what's tried and true. Currently that seems to mean new games for $50-$60 or your country's equivalent and useless day 1 DLC.
Sequelitis is kills innovation; "security" leads to stagnation.
My whole point is to reward those that still make games for making-games-sake rather than "How to best profit off of this" first and foremost on their mind.

"Yeah, $2 million is really not that much for seven games."
That's a question of cost-revenue-profit, not of what you feel is much or not. If you're 2-5 people making a game for less than half a million and a 2 week sale makes back half your expenses, I suspect you'd be talking differently.

Another point I would like to make is that nobody "needs" every game to cost double digit millions in the making. I enjoyed Silent Storm, I like Distant Worlds, I long for more games like JA2 and there's Xenonauts as X-Com remake. I am also highly anticipating Age of Decadence and the Doublebear Zombie game. Oh and of course a couple of Paradox Games are good stuff(HOI2, EU, CK).
This is all stuff thats geared more towards gameplay and all of them combined probably cost less than what some games you rush through in 5-8 hours were to make.

I would much rather have more sophistication in the games and less pressure on the devs so that both sides get something out of it; not "Push it to the limit so that we can hype it to death and sell ALL the DLC!111" as the only way to go.

And, thankfully, Kickstarter, the Indies and so forth are proving that it really is not the only way to do this, let alone that "Expensive = better and almost guarantees success" equation being the yardstick.
Thank god for that.

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If it was so easy to make games with the production values of a $60 title, then indie devs would be making them...
Many would argue a lot of the $10-$30 titles were more fun or gave more actual playtime than many a >=$40 title.
Me, obviously, included(SPAZ alone I played for several days; The Darkness II you can beat in _one_ afternoon. SPAZ was originally priced at $10, got it for $5, TD2 is still 40$).


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Now what I don't understand is the whole "extortion" argument. How is it extortion when you are offered the chance to buy something in addition to the base game?
Give us your money or else have a limited/inferior experience to those willing to put up more and more money.
The extorion bit is more meant in spirit than in actuality; it is obviously still a choice and free market. Nobody "has to" do anything.

Quote:
Previously you also wrote about wanting the same complete game that someone gets who has more money available to spend - but how is that different from everything else you can buy? Would you complain that other people get faster cars because they have more money?
This comes way too close to the whole "digital world is not real world" dilemma that the piracy discussion people never get right; not touching this.

The main point I was trying to make about that though is simply that it used to be the extras you got(cloth map, foldouts, toys, banners, comics) had _nothing_ whatsoever to do with the actual game.
All gamers were equal and enjoying the same game and content.
Now, if you pay more, you get more, thus creating a kind of "first class citizen vs basic game suckers" discrimination(through wallet size).
It is one thing to release a full-fledged expansion that contains 30-60% more new playtime for a reduced price as a kind of "almost second game"; its another to cash-crop your armoury, vehicles etc.

In my eyes:
"They" violated the "we all just want to play cool games" level that used to exist between game makers and gamers, because they, too, were really just gamers at heart.
The ongoing commercialization and "going corporate" process then made a mockery out of all of this and I find it disagreeable.

Its all perfectly legal and optional and so forth; that does not mean I have to like or endorse or financially support it.
And that is the point I am trying to hammer home:
I will financially support those that treat me like an equal, both sides helping each other out to exist and do what they love(make and play games), not like a target of financial exploitation/victim/walking wallet.
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:56 AM   #88
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That's a question of cost-revenue-profit, not of what you feel is much or not. If you're 2-5 people making a game for less than half a million and a 2 week sale makes back half your expenses, I suspect you'd be talking differently.
Right, but if you want to play games that 2-5 people can make for less than $500k, then what are you doing posting in this forum? This is not that kind of game.

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Many would argue a lot of the $10-$30 titles were more fun or gave more actual playtime than many a >=$40 title.
I would argue that too, but not in the context of this specific title. Just because some >=$40 titles aren't really worth $40 or even $4 doesn't mean none of them are. There are plenty of indie titles that aren't worth $4, too. It's up to you which ones you want to pay for, and which ones you don't.

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Give us your money or else have a limited/inferior experience to those willing to put up more and more money.
The extorion bit is more meant in spirit than in actuality; it is obviously still a choice and free market. Nobody "has to" do anything.
I still don't see how it's even extortion in spirit only. Everything that contributes to your experience costs money to make. Nobody would spend that money on making a game if he didn't think he could make more money back. I remember console games regularly costing more than $100. Now we have titles that cost $65 and if you want you can pay $5 less for a product with a little less content. It's just a flexible pricing model that would not work if those who pay more didn't actually get more.

Quote:
This comes way too close to the whole "digital world is not real world" dilemma that the piracy discussion people never get right; not touching this.
It's not really relevant here. The only argument one could make is that it doesn't cost the developer anything to let us download something that already exists, but that's a false argument because it a) cost something to make it and they need to make it back no matter how cheap it is to distribute their product and b) the whole concept of opportunity cost exists, especially if you are operating with money that's not entirely only yours, like most companies.

Quote:
The main point I was trying to make about that though is simply that it used to be the extras you got(cloth map, foldouts, toys, banners, comics) had _nothing_ whatsoever to do with the actual game.
All gamers were equal and enjoying the same game and content.
You're making a distinction between physical content and virtual content. Why?

Quote:
Now, if you pay more, you get more, thus creating a kind of "first class citizen vs basic game suckers" discrimination(through wallet size).
That argument doesn't really work because everything else you can buy works in the same way. Game developers have to survive in that system too. Yeah there are "first class citizens" who can afford more luxuries than others, but that's a problem of capitalism and people who are just trying to make a living within the system aren't really the ones to blame.

Quote:
In my eyes:
"They" violated the "we all just want to play cool games" level that used to exist between game makers and gamers, because they, too, were really just gamers at heart.
In my eyes - you're a little too idealistic. You're also buying your games from the wrong people. This is an industry. If you want "we all just want to play cool games" then you have to stick with indie developers who make you believe they genuinely only go to work every day because they think games are kinda neat.

Quote:
And that is the point I am trying to hammer home:
I will financially support those that treat me like an equal, both sides helping each other out to exist and do what they love(make and play games), not like a target of financial exploitation/victim/walking wallet.
You're walking a very fine line there between wanting to be treated as an equal, and treating the developers as a target of exploitation, or a handout provider. At the end of the day, even people who make games because they like to play cool games have to pay their bills. If I get to enjoy their work, I'll agree to pay part of their bills. And if they tell me they need $5 more then I have to accept that they need $5 more, and I don't see that as them not treating me as an equal, because they give me the opportunity not to give them those extra $5. But then I have to treat them in the same way, and give them the opportunity to not give me that extra content they worked to create.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:34 AM   #89
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A message for gerrick 38 from 38 studios.

I am considering to buy Kingdom of Amalur because i have heard its a good rpg action with some "Fable content" and because i read that wizards are powerful in this game.(i like wizards).

The issue with DLC is that it creates a kind of "wait and see attitude" for many players.

Many players think: oh yes, a good game is going, but there will be a lot of dlc= lets wait for Goty edition or sale.

In some situations Dlc cause people to wait for something they would have bought immediately in order to avoid being "powned" by the DLC.
Especially when this dlc is about story content.

Regarding the 60 bucks argument, a lot of people in my country more and more try to import in order to spare money, buying in pounds or else.

I am gonna take kingdom of amalur becauseits not as soft as morrowind, i want a feeling of power when i play.
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:05 PM   #90
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The reason people wait for a sale is because dlc is massively overpriced and while people are stupid they also can learn if you keep kicking them in the balls often enough.
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