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Old 03-06-2012, 08:31 AM   #46
Lemmers
 
 
 
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What about the witch simply giving up her attack a lot of the time? To me, that's the biggest issue with witches. Somebody startles her, and just because they are on a table or counter, the witch gets confused and runs away, making her completely useless.

The witch shouldn't give up her attack if a survivor is in an unreachable area, or at least not the first minute anyway. She should continue trying to reach them, so they can't just climb an object to confuse her, then jump back down. The same goes for saferooms, the witch should follow a survivor into the saferoom, or continuously pound on the saferoom door if she cannot get in like an AI tank would.

Most ladders make witches a joke too, as she can't get you if you camp on the top rung. They should be able to swat at your feet and incap survivors from ladders to prevent that sort of thing.

A reset of the DPS back to L4D1 rates would help witches be more deadly, but there are core problems with their AI that shouldn't be ignored.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mambini View Post
[B][U]Where did I said this ? omg.. get over it.
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it is fun like that for pubs, mixes and rvs group games, never for a proper competitive mode.
The only thing you left out was plain confogl, which must be the proper competitive mode you meant. Sorry for jumping to a conclusion based on what you wrote. When the entire argument you make sounds like every other confogl argument ("I don't want to die ever, this is too hard and/or isn't fair") it is too easy to lump it all together.

There can never be perfect balance in a game with variable spawn locations and random AI actions (wandering witch going one way or another). It is just something to deal with, and if you aggro the witch twice you deserve to lose 2 teammates. As mentioned, a witch killing more than one survivor only happens if you intentionally block her or light her up to make her switch targets.

Your solution is to make her less of a threat than she currently is (because you feel she is too OP in a crazy way), which is something I cannot agree with. I say make her tougher, if people shoot her once she is attacking, then each person who shoots her is fair game after she kills the initial attacker...and if the initial attacker gets to a saferoom or glitch spot, she selects a new target immediately.

You mess with the witch, you get the claws. And if you attack her, you make damn sure you kill her.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:42 AM   #48
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I say make her tougher, if people shoot her once she is attacking, then each person who shoots her is fair game after she kills the initial attacker...and if the initial attacker gets to a saferoom or glitch spot, she selects a new target immediately.
Hmm, I like this idea. There's already a Relentless Witch plugin available, which causes the witch to continue attacking new targets once the current target is dead. It shouldn't be too hard to make a list of every Survivor who shot her and restrict the selection of new targets to that list after she kills a Survivor.

I also think the glitch spots are pretty cheap. I like the idea of making her select a new target if the existing target is glitched. The only problem is that then all four Survivors will go to the glitch spot.

I also kinda like the idea of having her not run away when the attacker is in a glitch spot. Instead, she'll stand where she is and wait for a Survivor to leave the glitch spot, upon which time she'll proceed to chase the survivor. So if you're hanging out in the glitch spot you better finish her off. And if one of your buddies tries to start shooting her while you're hiding, the witch will chase after that buddy.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:53 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by jasminethecat View Post
The only thing you left out was plain confogl, which must be the proper competitive mode you meant..
Assumption is the mother of all ups!

Really Jasmine, the witch glitch behaviour is part of the game. There is no config or gamemode that will change that but if you guys like to be the hardcores of the glitching witch, go ahead. Have fun, I got tired of it after a while (Not because it is hard just because it is game/fun breaking).

I buried the balance axe a bit of time ago, essentially when I understood we see the game on a different way but mainly we agree that the witch needs a buff, I just don't agree with the way it was done in realism vs. Not because it is hard but just because the witch is easily glitched and ridiculous random.

You got the point ?

Last edited by Mambini: 03-06-2012 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:03 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Mambini View Post
Really Jasmine, the witch glitching is part of the game. There is no config or gamemode that will change that.

I buried the balance axe a bit of time ago, essentially when I understood we see the game on a different way but mainly we agree that the witch needs a buff, I just don't agree with the way it was done in realism vs. Not because it is hard but just because the witch is easily glitched and ridiculous random.
At a minimum, we can probably agree that the witch needs to aggro quicker and actually have an aggro radius when wandering. Killing vs incapping, we can agree to disagree and play different modes if it bothers us too much.

Edit: INB4 your video clip was added

Last edited by jasminethecat: 03-06-2012 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:08 AM   #51
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Ideally, I'd love a Harder Versus mode overall.

Things such as Witches aggravating quicker, moving faster, unable to be crowned, SI becoming more stumble resistant, shorter respawn times.

Basically as Versus is atm it's normal mode, there should be an option to ramp it up to Hard or beyond for those of us who crown witches, free-grabbed allies and scoff pills all while reloading guns in our sleep.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:09 AM   #52
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I don't believe Mambini is against 1 hit kill witches or unpredictability in a comp game; Its more of the fact that the witches unpredictability is based on coding flaw rather then concept.

I could watch team 1 survivor go in on the witch while team 2 attack during team 1's attempt to remove her; The result could be a 3 cap with multiple in the vicinity of the witch, yet the witch herself will get up and wander off as if she already killed someone.

Team 2's turn on survivor could result in the very same 3 cap and yet not only does she kill the person that aggravated her, she'll also walk over and kill the 1 that was not shooting at her or in her way.. he was merely clearing his teammates from the tri; No fire & no path blocking.

For those pointing at getting in her way after a kill I've been 3/4s of the way through the subway choke on mercy2 only to be pushed all the way to the entrance of the sub by a witch that just killed a teammate; She saw no problem with me living so she just pushed at me for some odd several seconds til she could escape.

Anyways for a game competing for serious digs like hoodies & what not (!) a loss merely because of inept code isn't really ideal. I believe its a balance as I'm sure many enjoy the concept of the witch but do not want to let the flaws of her reality be too detrimental. So in that balance is allowing the witch in games with the l4d1 incap dmg rate while preventing 1 hit kills for those moments the witch does not follow the set rules laid out to her.

edit: i see i'm too slow
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:23 AM   #53
mild grapefruit
 
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.. With all that said, though, a witch that instant kills in something like regular confogl would be great if her coding was optimum; You would still see crowns but I believe at a significantly reduced rate in lieu for a fire lit or team kill; Confidence can be replaced with hesitation knowing it only takes 1 mistake to be taken out of the map.

Last edited by mild grapefruit: 03-06-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:25 PM   #54
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One thing that makes the witch in L4D stronger than L4D2 is the fact that you almost always have a smoker.

oh, and the fact that she doesn't walk away to some unused part of the map.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:44 AM   #55
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Don't witches have a health debuff in Left 4 Dead 2? Just buff her health and make her basically immune to pump shotty crowns like she was in Left 4 Dead.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:42 AM   #56
Kool Mode D
 
 
 
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Don't witches have a health debuff in Left 4 Dead 2? Just buff her health and make her basically immune to pump shotty crowns like she was in Left 4 Dead.
The L4D2 witch has the exact same health as the L4D1 witch and the L4D1 witch was never ever immune to pump shotty crowns. A huge difference the L4D2 witch have compared to her L4D1 counterpart is her massively reduced rate of damage in L4D2 when she starts slashing the incapped survivior. In L4D1 it took around 4-5 seconds for a witch to kill an incapped survivior, in L4D2 it takes 12-13 seconds. Such a stupid move by Valve.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:15 AM   #57
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The L4D2 witch has the exact same health as the L4D1 witch and the L4D1 witch was never ever immune to pump shotty crowns. A huge difference the L4D2 witch have compared to her L4D1 counterpart is her massively reduced rate of damage in L4D2 when she starts slashing the incapped survivior. In L4D1 it took around 4-5 seconds for a witch to kill an incapped survivior, in L4D2 it takes 12-13 seconds. Such a stupid move by Valve.
agree, witch is a joke now, easy to kill and rarely she kills a survivor
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:06 AM   #58
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agree, witch is a joke now, easy to kill and rarely she kills a survivor
If you don't like it, grab your mic and join us in realism versus! Or look for a realism-confogl server.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:17 PM   #59
spanio
 
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Re: Witch Buffs

First off, the witch should should inspire real fear in the hearts of any survivors brave enough to challenge her head on. Players should WANT to avoid her. I've rarely played a game where that's the case. So maybe the witch needs something more than she already has, and I've got some ideas.

1. Allow the witch to scale walls. If you're above a witch, there's no reason not to take your shots if you know she's going to run all the way down to that ladder back there, giving you and your team ample time to unload an entire clip into her before she gets even remotely close to you.

2. No one-hit-kills on already startled witches.

3. The witch thrashes around a lot when she's going all aggro. The arms and claws going all around everywhere. Well, what if this was more than cosmetic? I think her flailing should have the ability to disarm survivors. If you're trying to melee her when she's aggro, your melee weapon goes flying out of your hands. Ya know, over "there" somewhere. If you're trying to get in close with a shotgun and she's already in a bad mood, your primary goes flying too.

None of the SI have any disarm abilities, and yet we know it's possible for a survivor to be unarmed (the pistol would never leave you).

3b. And hell, on this note, what if when you're incapped by the witch and she's thrashing you to death, ALL your gear goes flying. Pipe bomb goes over there. Medkit is on the roof now. Primary weapon just landed at Ellis' feet. Melee weapon is in the water. When your team finally helps you up, you can't just go back to business as usual. No, you gotta go recover all your scattered gear. In versus, this would give the SI team a great additional opportunity to launch another offensive.

There's probably some problems with this that I'm just not seeing, so please, RUIN MY DAY!
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:03 PM   #60
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I wish walking slowly with your flashlight off actually made a difference in aggro.
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