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Old 03-09-2012, 07:12 AM   #16
Demoman 2101
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isildur4 View Post
+20% damage bonus
Upon firing the weapon: 15% cloak drained
Can't see enemy health while weapon is active
There we go.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:46 PM   #17
Magnamancy
 
 
 
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What's wrong with it:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The downsides don't really work/are negligible at best/don't
affect combat like the upside does.

-The extra decloak time doesn't seem to affect as much as the
extra time despite being universal/or is just as insignificant,
and isn't very noticeable at all.

-The inability to see health is voided by disguising, to be a
valid nerf it'd have to be active at all times.


The 20% damage upside doesn't feel justified/is too powerful for
the tradeoff, and the Spy didn't really need it to begin with.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How does that look for a general consensus of what's wrong with
the Beta Enforcer? What do you think of it?



I'll address the options for how it could be rectified in a little bit.
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Old 03-10-2012, 10:03 PM   #18
Henry Plainview
 
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I like the idea of a gun being honor bound, especially since the Enforcer is part of the Man of Honor set. However, I think the core problem is that the spy should not be able to trade stealth for firepower because it goes against his class function, just like the scout is not able to trade speed for firepower, the medic is not able to trade healing for firepower, and the heavy is not able to trade health for speed (do ho ho). Even if the damage bonus is nerfed into irrelevance, the Enforcer will always be fundamentally broken as long as it makes that tradeoff, in my opinion.
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:20 PM   #19
Magnamancy
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnamancy View Post
What's wrong with it:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The downsides don't really work/are negligible at best/don't
affect combat like the upside does.

-The extra decloak time doesn't seem to affect as much as the
extra time despite being universal/or is just as insignificant,
and isn't very noticeable at all.

-The inability to see health is voided by disguising, to be a
valid nerf it'd have to be active at all times.


The 20% damage upside doesn't feel justified/is too powerful for
the tradeoff, and the Spy didn't really need it to begin with.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, we've hit the nail on the head and nobody disagrees with the
above then?
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:07 PM   #20
Assbandit
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnamancy View Post
So, we've hit the nail on the head and nobody disagrees with the
above then?
I'm in agreement.
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:33 PM   #21
roamzero
 
 
 
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I disagree with part of the last statement. "Need" should not be a factor when considering unlock balance, it's assumed that all the class needs are covered with the vanilla loadout.
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:56 PM   #22
Magnamancy
 
 
 
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Thank you for the responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roamzero View Post
I disagree with part of the last statement. "Need" should not be a factor when considering unlock balance, it's assumed that all the class needs are covered with the vanilla loadout.
This is a very valid point, thank you Roam.


Now this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnamancy View Post
What's wrong with it:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The downsides don't really work/are negligible at best/don't
affect combat like the upside does.

-The extra decloak time doesn't seem to affect as much as the
extra time despite being universal/or is just as insignificant,
and isn't very noticeable at all.

-The inability to see health is voided by disguising, to be a
valid nerf it'd have to be active at all times.


The 20% damage upside doesn't feel justified/is too powerful for
the tradeoff.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... Is as it sits currently. Does anyone disagree with any point raised?
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:22 AM   #23
Tiomasta
 
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I hate how the Enforcer deals more damage even in direct combat situations. That was even what the default revolver had, the highest reliable damage, but the Enforcer is much better at everything and has almost no downsides at all. It even destroys sapped buildings quicker, even though that was actually globally reduced for balance before the Enforcer came out.
I would like to see some different ways of dealing that extra damage that doesn't also apply for all straight-up fighting as well.

Quote:
-The inability to see health is voided by disguising, to be a
valid nerf it'd have to be active at all times.
But even then, it still would be kinda insignificant and senseless when the accompanying upside for the gun is flat out more damage, and your other weapon is an instant kill. For your typical Enforcer targets, you don't even want to know how full their health is since you kill them so fast regardless because of the damage boost.
And the game already has a couple of things to visually indicate low health and overheal at all times, where it would actually make a difference, so it still could be worked around.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:29 AM   #24
flashn00b
 
 
 
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To be honest, i kinda think that the Enforcer is what the revolver should've been.

Hell, the engineer needs only his pistol to outgun the spy. That's the extent of how much the Revolver could use a step up. That said, would a 10% damage boost be enough to help the Spy survive a failed backstab?
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:36 PM   #25
NeoSamus
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashn00b View Post
To be honest, i kinda think that the Enforcer is what the revolver should've been.

Hell, the engineer needs only his pistol to outgun the spy. That's the extent of how much the Revolver could use a step up. That said, would a 10% damage boost be enough to help the Spy survive a failed backstab?
You posted that in a topic on the Spy subforum too, and you still fail to realize that the Engineer Pistol/Revolver Spy duel you've got in your head is pure theorycraft based entirely on numbers and nothing else.

The Revolver is an excellent weapon as is (far better than the Pistol), it provides a backup weapon for a Spy at exactly the right amount of power. The Spy is a class based on stealth, and his backup weapon is appropriate for backup - it's a powerful weapon, but weak enough (damage-wise) to prevent using it too offensively.

On topic: The Enforcer (really, any "+damage" revolver) is bound to be a bad idea, it takes the Spy out of his role as a stealth-based support class and into some weird stealth/combat hybrid class. Any boost to the Revolver's damage causes 2-shotting light classes, even a 5% boost will do it. What's wrong with the Enforcer -real game or beta- is, plain and simple, it's upside is broken. Without a combat-based downside or a very strong reason to not use it for anything but self-defense, it will never be truly balanced.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:05 PM   #26
flashn00b
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSamus View Post
You posted that in a topic on the Spy subforum too, and you still fail to realize that the Engineer Pistol/Revolver Spy duel you've got in your head is pure theorycraft based entirely on numbers and nothing else.
I suppose that is a bad example. I can say that if you force the spy into a situation where he has to defend himself with the revolver, you could pistol him to death unless he is equipped with the Enforcer. At best, the two weapons are comparable in my opinion.

At least the L'etranger provides some utility, allowing one to get a few extra moments of cloak, or to activate their dead ringer sooner.

And with the Enforcer, you can either survive that failed backstab, or take someone out with you.

Last edited by flashn00b: 03-14-2012 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:26 PM   #27
Karkadinn
 
 
 
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DPS isn't everything. The pistol requires more consistent accuracy instead of just aiming three shots, and the spy is a small target. Claiming that non-Enforcer spies are helpless against pistol-users strikes me as serious theorycrafting based on crunching damage numbers and ignoring more difficult to calculate factors.
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:54 PM   #28
KajiVena
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnamancy View Post
What is wrong with how the current Beta stats function?
Minimal downside that applies to all watches equally, yet is also hardly noticeable.

Quote:
How could this be addressed?
Test different downside/downside combination. Current downsides in-game or in-beta are minimal loses for an extra 20% damage.

I suggest -10 Cloak per shot or -15 Cloak per shot as it is a universal downside that discourages use in combination with the Dead Ringer, and offers a drawback to the extra damage.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:03 PM   #29
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its new downside is only a problem when used with yer.
yer has the least synergy with enforcer and this just makes it worse

edit: why not just move the earner's health penalty to the enforcer. thats a direct combat disadvantage.

Last edited by isildur4: 03-14-2012 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:24 PM   #30
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I have to say that losing 10% of cloak per hit, or 15% cloak sounds quite reasonable.

I despise the enforcer, a weapon that's so blatantly overpowered it's a joke. It's almost like valve only tested it to see if the spy would need more firepower.
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