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Old 04-29-2012, 03:15 AM   #1
Nadrac
 
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Dr punish obviousness ?

How about

-No flickering cloak for 1 sec only ( if they believe you this won't make a change )
-You lose 0.1 sec cloak for every 10dmg you suffer ( when cloak is active )
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:15 AM   #2
Lenny2k
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadrac View Post
How about

-No flickering cloak for 1 sec only ( if they believe you this won't make a change )
-You lose 0.1 sec cloak for every 10dmg you suffer ( when cloak is active )
Nobody competent gets fooled by the DR either way. Even if the feign was perfect. The moment you realize he is using the DR (the first time you see him after he has feigned) you will always know when he is using it.

Oh, the spy is not shooting back/dying to my first shot that did 30 damage? Boy he must've died now.

This is getting out of hand. So many threads about the DR, because it's 'annoying'.

It's starting to get very tempting making 3000 threads with.
Nerf jarate, spread is too big ezmode.
Nerf milk, spread is too big ezmode.
Nerf rocket launcher, too easy to aim with.
Nerf sticky launcher, too easy to hit with. (also OP)
Nerf medigun, too easy to heal, no effort.
Nerf minigun, no aim req.
Nerf sentries, you don't even play yourself.

DR is not the only weapon/tool in this game that is easy to use. At least the DR does not kill you, which is far more annoying then just knowing the spy didn't die.
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:39 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Lenny2k View Post
Nobody competent gets fooled by the DR either way. Even if the feign was perfect.
If the feign was "perfect", good spies could fool people...
I mean, the only thing that spies can't do is shoot.

Killing someone who doesn't shoot happens in TF2.

Valve just need to make DR deaths belieable, then make DR more about deception, than invulnerability.

Standard ragdolls, get +1 kill +1 point ( for a few seconds, a few minutes, who cares. Remove them when the spy really dies, if needed ).

Make them drop ammos. I guess that could be griefable... But I don't think many would use that, it'd be stupid. (ubering spies is more fun anyway)

This way, all the spy has to do is disguise as a friendly, and make his death look real.

Hell, I wouldn't even mind ( as I've read a few times on these forums ) the spy fake-shooting.
Rockets that deals 0 damage, stuff like that.

It would add even more deception skills to the class. You'd have to fire far enough from the target so it's not suspicious that it doesn't hurt them, but not far enough to make it obvious...

I'd really take pretty much anything (deception based) over the current DR (invuln based with 0 deception) (and 0 skill)
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:48 AM   #4
Mr Rabbit
 
 
 
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I think I've been fooled by a dead ringer a grand total of 2 times. I don't know what exactly it is, but there seems to be a plethora of glitches associated with the DR that I pick up on instantly.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:58 AM   #5
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I think I've been fooled by a dead ringer a grand total of 2 times. I don't know what exactly it is, but there seems to be a plethora of glitches associated with the DR that I pick up on instantly.
Usually the ragdoll that floats in the air for a second gives it away.
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:31 AM   #6
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I think I've been fooled by a dead ringer a grand total of 2 times. I don't know what exactly it is, but there seems to be a plethora of glitches associated with the DR that I pick up on instantly.
I agree I usually can find DR players quite easily but most of them seem to donīt know how to use it. Especially when playing pyro I sigh when chasing 6 seconds those invincible walking torches and same thing happens again and again...

But I donīt know why maybe itīs because I play on pubs after feigning with DR very few people try to find me and after many successful feigns they seem to give up hoping that someone will kill me sooner or later. Dunno.
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Old 04-29-2012, 02:54 PM   #7
ParanoidDrone
 
 
 
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How to modify the Dead Ringer in 6 easy steps:
  • Damage protection will decrease linearly with time, from 90% to 0% over N seconds, where N is the total cloak duration. Thus the damage protection D at time T can be calculated D = 0.9 - (0.9 * T / N).
  • Cloak will remain flickerproof for as long as the damage protection is nonzero. Once it expires, it will revert to normal cloak behavior. Decloaking will still use the distinctive sound file.
  • Feigning death will remove all status effects, such as afterburn, jarate, bleed, and milk.
  • Decloaking will drain all charge, regardless of time spent cloaked.
  • Ammo will no longer fill the cloak meter. Resupply cabinets will still work.
  • If necessary, cloak drain and regen rates will be tweaked to fine tune balance.

This addresses several problems, creates a few more, and attempts to solve those created problems as well. The damage protection is there in full force, but only briefly. The longer a Spy hangs around after feigning death, the more damage he will take. Being set on fire again, or getting hit with Jarate, both serve as a beacon for the enemy team to focus on, dealing ever increasing DPS and punishing the Spy for a sloppy feign.

Forcing a complete drain on decloak and eliminating ammo pickups prevents a Spy from using abundant nearby ammo, particularly destroyed building pieces, to quickly recharge for another feign. It creates a sizable window of vulnerability after feigning, introducing an element of risk and encouraging the Spy to find safety.

Cloak drain and regen rates should be tweaked with the lack of ammo pickups in mind, to provide the Spy with enough time to escape the scene and allow him to rejoin the action without waiting forever and a day. Exact numbers are open to debate.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:13 PM   #8
stabby stabby
 
 
 
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I think the DR is perfectly fine as is.

If Valve were to change anything, however, I'd have ammo replenishing cloak charge be replaced by a dramatically increased recharge time. Everything else really must remain untouched.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:31 PM   #9
Nadrac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParanoidDrone View Post
How to modify the Dead Ringer in 6 easy steps:
  • Damage protection will decrease linearly with time, from 90% to 0% over N seconds, where N is the total cloak duration. Thus the damage protection D at time T can be calculated D = 0.9 - (0.9 * T / N).
  • Cloak will remain flickerproof for as long as the damage protection is nonzero. Once it expires, it will revert to normal cloak behavior. Decloaking will still use the distinctive sound file.
  • Feigning death will remove all status effects, such as afterburn, jarate, bleed, and milk.
  • Decloaking will drain all charge, regardless of time spent cloaked.
  • Ammo will no longer fill the cloak meter. Resupply cabinets will still work.
  • If necessary, cloak drain and regen rates will be tweaked to fine tune balance.

This addresses several problems, creates a few more, and attempts to solve those created problems as well. The damage protection is there in full force, but only briefly. The longer a Spy hangs around after feigning death, the more damage he will take. Being set on fire again, or getting hit with Jarate, both serve as a beacon for the enemy team to focus on, dealing ever increasing DPS and punishing the Spy for a sloppy feign.

Forcing a complete drain on decloak and eliminating ammo pickups prevents a Spy from using abundant nearby ammo, particularly destroyed building pieces, to quickly recharge for another feign. It creates a sizable window of vulnerability after feigning, introducing an element of risk and encouraging the Spy to find safety.

Cloak drain and regen rates should be tweaked with the lack of ammo pickups in mind, to provide the Spy with enough time to escape the scene and allow him to rejoin the action without waiting forever and a day. Exact numbers are open to debate.
Really like it nicely done better undershoot an alternative item then overshoot it, and i am not saying this is underpowered at all, this is what dead ringer meant to be. I have nothing to add hope it get's implemented tomorrow , current dr is too heavily cheese flavored for my taste but this one actually might be fun to play.

Oh boy i expect counter arguments flying in soon from nonstop dr users
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:33 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by mechamecha View Post
If the feign was "perfect", good spies could fool people...
I mean, the only thing that spies can't do is shoot.

Killing someone who doesn't shoot happens in TF2.
If you'd read my point carefully, you would have seen me say, the first time they see/hear/know the spy has been using the DR, nobody gets foooled anymore. Which you know, happens a lot more then once in a round.

And no, killing someone that pretty much openly shows himself without shooting does not happen very often (if ever) against decent opponents.

You could argue 'but you have to act' (running around with a friendly disguise and such). Sure, but it still does not fool anyone simply because if of the player not shooting or acting out of place. (wanting to get hit)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParanoidDrone View Post
Forcing a complete drain on decloak and eliminating ammo pickups prevents a Spy from using abundant nearby ammo, particularly destroyed building pieces, to quickly recharge for another feign. It creates a sizable window of vulnerability after feigning, introducing an element of risk and encouraging the Spy to find safety.
I sure as hell am glad you aren't in charge of balance paranoid, because you have no idea how to balance this watch. (which is already balanced)

This part especially is quite ridiculous.
Not only should the spy spend a grand total of at least 20 seconds + to simply go for a kill. (which means death because of no DR)
If he wants to do it with any chance of escape, he needs to spend 16 seconds hanging around doing nothing, praying for no one to find him.

Explain to me, what is the point of forcing a class to spend up to one minute to 'try' to get a kill, while other classes can spend 1/10 of the time and get several kills.

Other classes in this case can almost spawn and die twice before the spy has done jack, if the spy wanted to have the DR ready before going for a kill.

Do you not see the logical fallacy here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadrac View Post
Really like it nicely done better undershoot an alternative item then overshoot it, and i am not saying this is underpowered at all, this is what dead ringer meant to be. I have nothing to add hope it get's implemented tomorrow , current dr is too heavily cheese flavored for my taste but this one actually might be fun to play.

Oh boy i expect counter arguments flying in soon from nonstop dr users
First of all, you are completely right, first counter argument ^^^^

This change makes the DR extremely underpowered. There is no point what so ever to use it over any of the other watches. Because it is too time consuming and you are way too vulnerable after uncloak.

I fail to understand how you people cannot see this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stabby stabby View Post
I think the DR is perfectly fine as is.

If Valve were to change anything, however, I'd have ammo replenishing cloak charge be replaced by a dramatically increased recharge time. Everything else really must remain untouched.
And there you go...
This could/would be more annoying then the current DR as well, because you cannot deny his cloak recharge either.

So glad SPUF doesn't have any say in balance..

Last edited by Lenny2k: 04-29-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:28 PM   #11
Nadrac
 
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Originally Posted by stabby stabby View Post
I think the DR is perfectly fine as is.

If Valve were to change anything, however, I'd have ammo replenishing cloak charge be replaced by a dramatically increased recharge time. Everything else really must remain untouched.
+ Will get rid of sentry debris instant fake death, not like you will need it anymore

- No reliance on ammo packs ( already you have to wait only 9.4 secs for another fake which is very short )

- dr not hp dependent, no reliance on supplies

- really open up your possibilities when you are not tied to ammo sites you can abuse your hit > fake repeat all day long anywhere with they having near zero chance to find you, dr spies like to come from ammo sites but this guy could hide in a corner for few secs than troll away

( by dramatically i assumed 2x faster than the current one, so again assuming you step on an ammo pack the moment you decloak you would have to wait 3.2 with the current one 4.7 with this but anywhere, if you run empty decloak+ammo pack 9.4 current vs 8sec anywhere, and this even assuming there is an ammopack there and you can soon step on it ! jsus )

This would make dr even faster more efficent/unpredictable killing machine

Nice change i'd take a troll mask and a minigun with it

check please
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:46 PM   #12
Nadrac
 
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Originally Posted by Lenny2k View Post
If you'd read my point carefully, you would have seen me say, the first time they see/hear/know the spy has been using the DR, nobody gets foooled anymore. Which you know, happens a lot more then once in a round.

And no, killing someone that pretty much openly shows himself without shooting does not happen very often (if ever) against decent opponents.

You could argue 'but you have to act' (running around with a friendly disguise and such). Sure, but it still does not fool anyone simply because if of the player not shooting or acting out of place. (wanting to get hit)



I sure as hell am glad you aren't in charge of balance paranoid, because you have no idea how to balance this watch. (which is already balanced)

This part especially is quite ridiculous.
Not only should the spy spend a grand total of at least 20 seconds + to simply go for a kill. (which means death because of no DR)
If he wants to do it with any chance of escape, he needs to spend 16 seconds hanging around doing nothing, praying for no one to find him.

Explain to me, what is the point of forcing a class to spend up to one minute to 'try' to get a kill, while other classes can spend 1/10 of the time and get several kills.

Other classes in this case can almost spawn and die twice before the spy has done jack, if the spy wanted to have the DR ready before going for a kill.

Do you not see the logical fallacy here?



First of all, you are completely right, first counter argument ^^^^

This change makes the DR extremely underpowered. There is no point what so ever to use it over any of the other watches. Because it is too time consuming and you are way too vulnerable after uncloak.

I fail to understand how you people cannot see this.




And there you go...
This could/would be more annoying then the current DR as well, because you cannot deny his cloak recharge either.

So glad SPUF doesn't have any say in balance..
It sounds terrible for a whole 16 secs you can be killed and can only deal headshots from the sidelines or restore your cloak using letranger , or use that time to infiltrate deeper using the side corridors if available, darn it why do perfect escapes have to have a downside , if not maybe deadringer is not a 24/7 watch ? :O

Cnd is perfect alternative to iw should be more often used, dr is built for more specific situations than "defense/not moving front, like cnd were", situations like "meh everyone runs dr" should be unheard of.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:05 PM   #13
stabby stabby
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Lenny2k View Post

And there you go...
This could/would be more annoying then the current DR as well, because you cannot deny his cloak recharge either.

So glad SPUF doesn't have any say in balance..
Uh...you wouldn't need to deny him ammo...

I did neglect to mention that charge would have to be reduced to 0% upon decloak.

SPUF does have a say, by the way. I'm happy to say I've had one of my suggestions implemented (FaN knockback becoming trajectory-based).

Last edited by stabby stabby: 04-29-2012 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:20 PM   #14
Lenny2k
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Nadrac View Post
It sounds terrible for a whole 16 secs you can be killed and can only deal headshots from the sidelines or restore your cloak using letranger , or use that time to infiltrate deeper using the side corridors if available, darn it why do perfect escapes have to have a downside , if not maybe deadringer is not a 24/7 watch ? :O
Get a load of this guy, he sure doesn't realize that being vulnerable for 16 seconds isn't a long time.

I bet he's incredibly good at this game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stabby stabby View Post
Uh...you wouldn't need to deny him ammo...

I did neglect to mention that charge would have to be reduced to 0% upon decloak.
Dramatically increased and as you said neglected to mention reduced to 0%

Last edited by Lenny2k: 04-29-2012 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:13 AM   #15
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I sure as hell am glad you aren't in charge of balance paranoid, because you have no idea how to balance this watch. (which is already balanced)

This part especially is quite ridiculous.
Not only should the spy spend a grand total of at least 20 seconds + to simply go for a kill. (which means death because of no DR)
If he wants to do it with any chance of escape, he needs to spend 16 seconds hanging around doing nothing, praying for no one to find him.

Explain to me, what is the point of forcing a class to spend up to one minute to 'try' to get a kill, while other classes can spend 1/10 of the time and get several kills.

Other classes in this case can almost spawn and die twice before the spy has done jack, if the spy wanted to have the DR ready before going for a kill.

Do you not see the logical fallacy here?
I did explicitly point out that cloak drain/regen rates were open to tweaking, so if you really wanted you could argue for a 5 second recharge time. I agree that 16 seconds on its own is far too long -- the C&D gets away with it since you can be invisible while you wait.

The DR is more or less balanced right now, but the sheer number of complaints about it should send up some red flags that it's worth considering alternative implementations.
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