FPS cap - To use or not to use?

[stabby stabby]

Originally Posted by esdfaz

no fps cap does not cause stuttering. vysnc will cause stuttering.

Incorrect. Properly configured v-sync will do no such thing. Capping FPS can cause tearing, and yes, in some cases, stuttering.

[Nindo]

Originally Posted by S@GA

Wow that was really helpful and I can really feel the difference now that I turned off vsync and use cl_updaterate 132.
Thanks a lot Nindo

cl_updaterate should be 66. fps_max should be 132. If I made a misleading typo, im sorry.

Originally Posted by stabby stabby

No, leave it at the default of 300.

Notice nobody has given you a reason to cap it, other than faulty understandings...max updaterate is 100 in this game, and the tickrate is 66.666666-.

Here is why you do not cap your framerate: The game recieves input frame by frame--more FPS = less input lag. By capping it, your FPS will not only be limited, but fluctuate below the cap.


Capping your FPS is a technique useful only if you do not use Raw Input (you should use it).

If you're trying to avoid tearing, do the following:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=2640899

The tick rate is capped 66, which means that if you are connected to a server with tick rate 66 (the maximum for a legit server), your cl_updaterate will be capped to 66 too. The game tells you this if you try to go over 66 while connected to a server (I might confuse this with cl_cmdrate, but cmdrate should be the same as updaterate anyways). It's true that the game has defaulted the updaterate to 100, but that was back in the days (before the MAC update). The same new and worse netcode update was released on CSS too, which is one of the big reasons 1.6 is more popular competitively these days.

Its true that you get a better mouse performance with more FPS, but the frames is not synced with the netcode if you do not cap your FPS to a value that is 2x of cl_updaterate. My source for this cap is Chris' performance configs.

The reason why you cap your FPS is because you want a SOLID fps. You don't want the fps to tick from, lets say 290-300 outside firefights/midfights or maybe 285-300 in big areas, to around 220-250 while entering firefights/midfights. You want the FPS to be constant on a value that optimize the game input and network.

You can, if you want to, set fps_max to: 66, 132, 264 or 528 ( [updaterate]*2^(n-1) ), as long as your computer keeps it up. It's not worth to double up your required GPU power to get a slight (almost unnoticeable) mouse improvement.

Even though 120Hz is enough for 3D TVs, companies sell TVs with 1000Hz, because they fool people that it's a huge difference. Mouse companies sells mice with 6000+ DPI laser, when 800 DPI optical really is better. Numbers sell, and if there was a company who sold cvars, they would want a product with fps_max 1337.

[stabby stabby]

You want your actions to register as soon as possible so that they will be ready for the soonest tick--you do this by maximizing FPS. "Syncing frames with net code" does nothing, although it sounds nice.

TF2 is 66.666666 tick, but updaterate may be 100 so that out kb/s does not fluctuate below 67--it provides a buffer.

[Kageking]

Extremely interesting read!

I do not use raw input though, since if I check it my aim won't move at all, I can shoot by clicking, so it isn't because mouse isn't working, and if I uncheck it, it'll work.

I'm pretty confident in my play without capping the FPS to some limit, so this probably means I don't need to do it?

[thepounder1]

I just wish there was an easier way to makes heads or tails of this because over the last year or so I've tried to tweak cmdrate and updaterate, etc... but how am I suppose to know what to set it to? Sure, I have extremely fast internet at home but how do I know what tickrate my regular server is? (my lerp no longer goes in the orange or yellow, but sometimes hits don't register for no apparent reason)

Not only that but I've avoided capping FPS because even if I set it to 66 it will definitely dip below that at some point... I'm not made of money and have to deal with reality; I play on a decent laptop (new XPS15, GT 540M vid card) because I travel all the time for work... but I still want consistency - for example, some days I'm shooting scattergun shots right at the enemy and they don't register at all... so could it be my settings or is it just lag compensation shafting me? Any way to tell for sure?

Sorry... started typing and couldn't seem to stop.

[Nindo]

Originally Posted by thepounder1

I just wish there was an easier way to makes heads or tails of this because over the last year or so I've tried to tweak cmdrate and updaterate, etc... but how am I suppose to know what to set it to? Sure, I have extremely fast internet at home but how do I know what tickrate my regular server is? (my lerp no longer goes in the orange or yellow, but sometimes hits don't register for no apparent reason)

Not only that but I've avoided capping FPS because even if I set it to 66 it will definitely dip below that at some point... I'm not made of money and have to deal with reality; I play on a decent laptop (new XPS15, GT 540M vid card) because I travel all the time for work... but I still want consistency - for example, some days I'm shooting scattergun shots right at the enemy and they don't register at all... so could it be my settings or is it just lag compensation shafting me? Any way to tell for sure?

Sorry... started typing and couldn't seem to stop.

My tip for you is to use one of maxs' fps configs. http://fakkelbrigade.eu/chris/configs/
If its your first time using configs, take your time to read through the comments. You edit cfgs with a notepad, even better with notepad++ (a free to use program). On my laptop I get 66 fps constantly with its Intel HD Graphics while using Chris' maxframes config. My GF has a similar laptop like yours. Her laptop played TF2 just fine (for casual play!) with the maxfps config.

If you play with your laptop's wireless network card, it does not matter what settings you use. Its the nature of wireless networks to encounter a lot off packetloss. In-game, when you loose a packet, you'll notice stuff like enemies soldiers shoot rockets at you, but you don't se a fire animation. One common packetloss error is false registered hits. Also you'll probably warp (appear laggy to others).

If you use a wire then all I can say is "welcome to TF2's big flaw, its hitscan hit-tracking!". Missing obvious hits in TF2 is common overall. This is something you need to learn (aiming next to running scouts).

[Nindo]

Originally Posted by stabby stabby

You want your actions to register as soon as possible so that they will be ready for the soonest tick--you do this by maximizing FPS. "Syncing frames with net code" does nothing, although it sounds nice.

TF2 is 66.666666 tick, but updaterate may be 100 so that out kb/s does not fluctuate below 67--it provides a buffer.

If you have 132 fps_max, you have a 50% chance that your action is just during a tick. If it happens to be on a "not tick" it takes 1/132th second for the action to be sent to the server. If you have more fps, you won't really notiece not fluency, instead you risk non solid fps, therefore worse mouse movement. I notice when 300 fps drop to 220 fps in my mouse, and that is nothing a comp player want.

[gf1024]

I'd only use the FPS cap if it's an all-class paintable cap.

[Raison d'être]

My computer auto-caps it at 15, though it sometimes caps at 10.

You should try it, you can really see the difference.

[stabby stabby]

Originally Posted by Nindo

If you have 132 fps_max, you have a 50% chance that your action is just during a tick. If it happens to be on a "not tick" it takes 1/132th second for the action to be sent to the server. If you have more fps, you won't really notiece not fluency, instead you risk non solid fps, therefore worse mouse movement. I notice when 300 fps drop to 220 fps in my mouse, and that is nothing a comp player want.

If you have more FPS your actions will register sooner and be more likely to make the next tick, and pointer movement will be smoother and more responsive. I can easily feel the difference between 120 and 300.

If you cap your FPS, it will fluctuate below the cap, and your actions will simply register later, client-side and (more severely) server side.

Having a steady FPS will not improve cursor movement at all--you seem to lack a reason why this would be. A higher FPS will make cursor movement smoother because it is updated at a higher rate.

[Juracule]

I cap my fps at fps_max 61 even though I usually get like 90-120, because it makes sure I don't get fluctuations in fps, which is terribly annoying. Nindo, are you sure you mean fps_max 66 , as that will not allow the fps to go above 65. Fps you can achieve is fps_max (x-1).

[Nindo]

Originally Posted by stabby stabby

If you have more FPS your actions will register sooner and be more likely to make the next tick, and pointer movement will be smoother and more responsive. I can easily feel the difference between 120 and 300.

If you cap your FPS, it will fluctuate below the cap, and your actions will simply register later, client-side and (more severely) server side.

Having a steady FPS will not improve cursor movement at all--you seem to lack a reason why this would be. A higher FPS will make cursor movement smoother because it is updated at a higher rate..

As I said before, you don't want FPS drops. There is difference from moving your mouse during 132 FPS and 300 FPS, yes, but if you cap your FPS to 300, the risk of a non-constant FPS is pretty high. I play with 132 FPS constant, whether I'm in a open midfight on badlands or if i'm in a small corridor alone. When I play with 300 FPS cap, I'll have 300 FPS in a small corridor, and jumpy fps ranging from 220 - 290 FPS in midfights. This is equal as if I would use two different mouse settings; one, very unstable setting, for midfights and one smooth flawless for when I'm running in corridors. I don't want that. I want a constant flawless mouse setting. Thereby fps_max 132.

I use settings that i can rely on. I use settings that, despite situation, always have the same feel. Capping your FPS to 300 gives you no more opportunities to register actions, as you only send commands at a maximum rate of 66/second to the server. If you have less FPS that 66, then you might get delays of commands but as long as you have more than 66 FPS (preferably 132Hz(FPS is a value measured by Hz) as it's in sync with with updaterate 66Hz and over 120Hz, for me with a 120Hz monitor). If you have fps_max 132, you will ALWAYS have a frame rendered during the process of sending/receiving packets to/from the server.

You say that you can easily notice how your mouse preforms between 120 FPS and 300 FPS. Me too, that's why I want a constant FPS, so I always get the same feel. It's like when you get a HEAVY fps drop. You instantly feel like you're not in control of your mouse. It's far less responsive, right? That's happening all the time (but within a lower degree) when your FPS is not constant at all times. The reason of capping fps in order to remove random increasing/decreasing input lag depending on how many opponents there are on screen is a valid reason to me.

For an extreme example. It's better to have a constant 40 FPS constant on a really slow computer (in games generally), rather than having random FPS between 40 - 60. Being constant is the trick for smoothness, being non-constant is the opposite. There is a reason why quake, a game created when 125Hz polling rate mice where most common, has 125 packets sent/received per second with 125 hardcoded FPS maximum. Quake is smooth and flawless with 120Hz monitor (would be minutely better with 125Hz of course). TF2 is half as smooth with it's 66 packets sent/recieved per second, but in TF2's defense, TF2 is not designed for competitive hardcore gaming.

Originally Posted by Juracule

I cap my fps at fps_max 61 even though I usually get like 90-120, because it makes sure I don't get fluctuations in fps, which is terribly annoying. Nindo, are you sure you mean fps_max 66 , as that will not allow the fps to go above 65. Fps you can achieve is fps_max (x-1).

I'm sure. When you set fps_max to lets say 60, the game makes sure that your FPS always stays under 60 (FPS < 60). This means that you will have an FPS of 59.999999999999(inf. amount of 9:s) as maximum FPS. That is practically 60 FPS. If you would have a screen capture of each frame during a whole second (without affecting CPU/GPU in the process of capturing and saving the imgae), most frames would say that FPS = 59, but some frames (very doubtfully two consecutive frames) would say that FPS = 60. This is just coders being lazy to not output the value with decimals or a rounded value.

And thank you, you prove my point against stabby (by saying you cap your FPS to keep it constant!)

[Kageking]

Originally Posted by gf1024

I'd only use the FPS cap if it's an all-class paintable cap.

Originally Posted by Raison d'être

My computer auto-caps it at 15, though it sometimes caps at 10.

You should try it, you can really see the difference.

I did wonder how didn't these wiseguys show up earlier.

[playersholiday]

Nvidia's new 300 series drivers cap the framerate dynamically (switch v-sync on/off optimally).

The technology is described here:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/...hnology_review

[stabby stabby]

Originally Posted by Nindo

As I said before, you don't want FPS drops. There is difference from moving your mouse during 132 FPS and 300 FPS, yes, but if you cap your FPS to 300, the risk of a non-constant FPS is pretty high. I play with 132 FPS constant, whether I'm in a open midfight on badlands or if i'm in a small corridor alone. When I play with 300 FPS cap, I'll have 300 FPS in a small corridor, and jumpy fps ranging from 220 - 290 FPS in midfights. This is equal as if I would use two different mouse settings; one, very unstable setting, for midfights and one smooth flawless for when I'm running in corridors. I don't want that. I want a constant flawless mouse setting. Thereby fps_max 132.

I use settings that i can rely on. I use settings that, despite situation, always have the same feel. Capping your FPS to 300 gives you no more opportunities to register actions, as you only send commands at a maximum rate of 66/second to the server. If you have less FPS that 66, then you might get delays of commands but as long as you have more than 66 FPS (preferably 132Hz(FPS is a value measured by Hz) as it's in sync with with updaterate 66Hz and over 120Hz, for me with a 120Hz monitor). If you have fps_max 132, you will ALWAYS have a frame rendered during the process of sending/receiving packets to/from the server.

You say that you can easily notice how your mouse preforms between 120 FPS and 300 FPS. Me too, that's why I want a constant FPS, so I always get the same feel. It's like when you get a HEAVY fps drop. You instantly feel like you're not in control of your mouse. It's far less responsive, right? That's happening all the time (but within a lower degree) when your FPS is not constant at all times. The reason of capping fps in order to remove random increasing/decreasing input lag depending on how many opponents there are on screen is a valid reason to me.

For an extreme example. It's better to have a constant 40 FPS constant on a really slow computer (in games generally), rather than having random FPS between 40 - 60. Being constant is the trick for smoothness, being non-constant is the opposite. There is a reason why quake, a game created when 125Hz polling rate mice where most common, has 125 packets sent/received per second with 125 hardcoded FPS maximum. Quake is smooth and flawless with 120Hz monitor (would be minutely better with 125Hz of course). TF2 is half as smooth with it's 66 packets sent/recieved per second, but in TF2's defense, TF2 is not designed for competitive hardcore gaming.




I'm sure. When you set fps_max to lets say 60, the game makes sure that your FPS always stays under 60 (FPS < 60). This means that you will have an FPS of 59.999999999999(inf. amount of 9:s) as maximum FPS. That is practically 60 FPS. If you would have a screen capture of each frame during a whole second (without affecting CPU/GPU in the process of capturing and saving the imgae), most frames would say that FPS = 59, but some frames (very doubtfully two consecutive frames) would say that FPS = 60. This is just coders being lazy to not output the value with decimals or a rounded value.

And thank you, you prove my point against stabby (by saying you cap your FPS to keep it constant!)

You need to explain how FPS fluctuation is detrimental to mouse movement. I understand that you'd prefer to have your mouse movement be worse all the time instead of it being smoother most of the time. That makes little sense to me, and you're otherwise simply repeating that it is bad.

As long as Raw Input is enabled, if you move your mouse 1 inch left with a constant FPS, your view will rotate the exact same number of degrees as you would with a fluctuating FPS.


As for the network side of things, while you are limited to 66.6666- updates/sec out, how recent those updates are is determined by FPS.

It's also worth noting that fps_max works poorly. Your FPS will fluctuate between the cap and 10 frames below. You may also experience odd tearing or input lag.