Pomson 6000 Hitbox Analysis

[NeoSamus]

As you might know by now, the Pomson 6000 has enormous hitboxes compared to the projectile's appearance itself. If you don't know by now, well, you're in luck: I can show you two overt examples of the extreme size of the hitboxes. But I'm less interested in arguing about how these 'can be dodged' or whatever argument we want to get into, and more interested in the reasoning behind why the hitboxes are so large.

Well, after some testing, I got to the reasoning as to what causes the hitboxes to be so big: The Pomson doesn't use projectile hitboxes, it uses particle hitboxes. If you don't know what particles are, they are the tiny invisible 'projectiles' that Flamethrowers of every sort use for hit detection. Particle hitboxes are generally rather large, due to the Flamethrowers' mechanics supporting an "easy to hit" weapon.

My theory was brought on by a curiosity of the Pomson and Bison's crit mechanics - they fall off over range instead of doing a constant damage. This is a mechanic only shared with the Flamethrowers. So I did the next logical thing, I started up TF2, created an empty server, and tested it. Using a console command that is supposed to be exclusively for Flamethrowers (tf_debug_flamethrower 1), I forced the game to show the hitboxes in real time of the Pomson 6000 and Righteous Bison's projectiles. This basically proved to me that the two weapons used particle hitboxes, but in case it wasn't enough, I spawned a bot and started hitting it with the Pomson. The console itself revealed the damage done as "Fire damage: 12" listed 3 times after attacking a bot at long range with it. Without a doubt, this was a confirmation that the Pomson and Bison used modified Flamethrower attributes in order to calculate damage and hit detection.

In case you wanted some pictorial evidence:

Pomson 6000 visible hitboxes: Picture
Two Pomson shots, one just firing and one in the back: Picture
Righteous Bison visible hitboxes: Picture

As you can see, the Pomson and Bison actually have the same hitbox size (due to their nature of using particles), but the Pomson's actual projectile model is generally much smaller and thinner (and less immediately noticeable imo, but that's more subjective).

But, while that tells us why the mechanics as to why the Pomson and Bison have such large hitboxes, it doesn't tell us why Valve decided to use particle hitboxes. These paragraphs are obviously entirely conjecture, but it makes sense if you really think about it.

First theory: Valve wanted to make a penetrating and unreflectable projectile when making the Bison, but no projectile had this coding (only Syringes were unreflectable prior to the Bison). So, instead of creating an entirely new code for a projectile, they heavily borrowed coding from the only unreflectable/penetrating weapon in the game that wasn't hitscan: The Flamethrower. The Flamethrower already used 'projectiles' and had the two properties that make the Bison unique, all they really had to do was remove the ignition and particle lifespan coding and slap it on the Bison.

Second theory: Valve actually had balance in mind for once, and a projectile they decided would hit the same target multiple times would be a tricky thing to actually balance. Too fast, and it doesn't hit multiple times; too slow, and it's really easy to dodge and worthless. So they made the projectile a little faster than rockets and gave it the particle hitbox to compensate for the 'slow' speed of the projectile (Note that the only projectiles that are slower than the Pomson/Bison are either extremely rapidfire or have a large splash radius. None really require a direct hit to work). This ended up being a nice compromise for the Bison, as it allowed it to do everything it does with pretty good efficiency.

tl;dr - The Pomson's hitboxes are enormous. This is because they use the same hitboxes that the Flamethrower uses. Please don't ask me to 'just dodge it'.

[4812622]

lolnub

ADAPTTEAMWORKDODGEL2P!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rynjin]

That's an interesting theory. Also, before someone goes "Lol that's just you":


http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...272?tab=public

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...159?tab=public

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...982?tab=public

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...889?tab=public

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...168?tab=public

[Thunderous]

Originally Posted by 4812622

lolnub

ADAPTTEAMWORKDODGEL2P!!!!!!!!!!!

....Or make the hitbox smaller.

Regardless of the size of the hitbox, it's still a projectile and every single projectile in the game is avoidable. When people tell you to "dodge it", I don't think they mean "do matrix-movements and dodge every single one of them", I think they more likely mean "dodge what you can". Some people make it sound as if it's impossible to dodge the pomson at all.

Still though, reduce the size of the hitbox to match more closely to the visual appearance of the laser, fix the cloak bug, and make the lasers more distinguishable. If it's still too much, slap on no drain on penetration or something.

[Teamfortressguy]

Originally Posted by Rynjin

That's an interesting theory. Also, before someone goes "Lol that's just you":


http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...272?tab=public

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...159?tab=public

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...982?tab=public


http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...889?tab=public

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...168?tab=public

To add on to that:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...FF28337AE7266/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...33DC0BA3D498B/


We need to either reduce the hitbox size, or change to particle to be bigger, like the Bison.

[Ψ-Forks-Ψ]

See also: Righteous Bison

[Brutis_Buckeye]

"ADOPTTEAMWORKDODGE"


nice color work

[TheFailWhale]

Originally Posted by Thunderous

....Or make the hitbox smaller.

Regardless of the size of the hitbox, it's still a projectile and every single projectile in the game is avoidable. When people tell you to "dodge it", I don't think they mean "do matrix-movements and dodge every single one of them", I think they more likely mean "dodge what you can". Some people make it sound as if it's impossible to dodge the pomson at all.

Still though, reduce the size of the hitbox to match more closely to the visual appearance of the laser, fix the cloak bug, and make the lasers more distinguishable. If it's still too much, slap on no drain on penetration or something.

Ya obviously didn't read the OP, because he stated many times he didn't want to argue over the Pompson mechanics.

[Thunderous]

Originally Posted by TheFailWhale

Ya obviously didn't read the OP, because he stated many times he didn't want to argue over the Pompson mechanics.

The OP stated that he's "less interested in arguing about how these 'can be dodged' or whatever argument we want to get into" or anything of the sort once. And everything he's talking about is of the Pomson's mechanics and speculations of its hit-box. And then the last line of his post is a summary of the entire thing. Pomson's hitbox is big, uses the same hitbox as flamethrower, and ask people not to tell him to just "dodge it".

My post was not even a direct response to the OP. It was a direct response to a sarcastic post.

[TheFailWhale]

Originally Posted by Thunderous

The OP stated that he's "less interested in arguing about how these 'can be dodged' or whatever argument we want to get into" or anything of the sort once. And everything he's talking about is of the Pomson's mechanics and speculations of its hit-box. And then the last line of his post is a summary of the entire thing. Pomson's hitbox is big, uses the same hitbox as flamethrower, and ask people not to tell him to just "dodge it".

My post was not even a direct response to the OP. It was a direct response to a sarcastic post.

Perhaps I should be a bit more specific. The OP is an analysis of the hitbox, and that was the only thing he wanted to discuss. Instead you veered into a post about the Pomson stats and such. He didn't want to discuss balance here, as far as I can tell.

[20 Sentry Fox]

Nothing new to me.

As far as I know the 'projectiles' fired by the space monkey guns basically are a bunch of flamethrower particles, 6, if I remember right, fired in a straight line.
They just set their max particle lifetime to infinite, removed the afterburn application and as well as [mini]crits obeying fall off and +X/-Y juggled around with max fall off and base damage.

That's why they can't be reflected, can score multiple hits on one target, penetrate, and are capable of igniting arrows as well as shooting through sloppily rendered walls and gates just like flamethrowers.

[Selgin1]

Very interesting, +rep.

[Kiloace]

I <3 Science. Have rep my friend.


So, in conclusion:

The Pomson is OP. Nerf it.

[mechamecha]

Originally Posted by Thunderous

....Or make the hitbox smaller.

Or balance the weapon for an infinite-range weapon that doesn'T use ammo.

I don't care about a draining weapon.
I don't care about an infinite range weapon.
I don't care about a weapon with a large hitbox.
I don't care about the engi having a weapon.

But I care about the engi having an infinite range draining weapon that hit anyone in a 50 feets radius.

[TheFailWhale]

Originally Posted by mechamecha

Or balance the weapon for an infinite-range weapon that doesn'T use ammo.

I don't care about a draining weapon.
I don't care about an infinite range weapon.
I don't care about a weapon with a large hitbox.
I don't care about the engi having a weapon.

But I care about the engi having an infinite range draining weapon that hit anyone in a 50 feets radius.

Don't hate a weapon for the wrong reasons, now.