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Old 05-04-2012, 01:19 PM   #1
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Lightbulb Captains Mode in TF2 [Dota Idea]

Posted it in the main tf2 forum by mistake so i reposted it here

Obviously the idea is from Dota but it would be fun/interesting to see a thing like this in competitive TF2.


I think there is a auto-whitelist importer made by someone so someone with code skill could make such a thing for lets say tf2lobby for guns to be banned before a match and the others would be allowed.

TL;DL: Similar to Dota 5 weapons from each team will be banned and the match will start with the remaining.
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Old 05-05-2012, 12:25 PM   #2
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Hi, I used to play DotA vaguely competitive (IHL's at a low level) and follow it competitively pretty religiously.

That said, this idea does not work in Team Fortress 2. At all.

The whole point of the ban/pick system in DotA is to create versatility in gameplay. If there was no ban/pick system, team comps would be inherently limited as a) the game is not perfectly balanced b) some heroes are balanced around being situational counterpicks and only truly work in this role at a high level as a surprise last pick (ie: Silencer).

At a high level the ban/pick system creates a metagame, as each team knows each other team fairly intimately, you have a crazy mind game which can help decide how the entire 30-1h+ match goes. This metagame is so deep and dynamic that there are people famous in DotA for being the best at it, and there are many that blow very very hard at it. Not many people have the skill to analyze DotA at such a deep level to make the perfect team comp.

In DotA, the role of the captain in a ban/pick phase is thus:
a) Get the heroes to play the comp you want to play.
b) Ban the heroes who counter the comp you are playing.
c) Get heroes to counter the comp the other team is playing.
d) Ban heroes that help the comp the other team is playing.
e) Get top tier heroes.
f) Prevent the other team from getting too many top tier heroes.

And thus comes the crux of why this system fails in TF2 - items are not heroes which can only be used by 1 person on each team. If one team in DotA gets Furion, the other team can't have him.

This simple difference ruins the entire dynamic of the captains metagame. If each team can use whatever is not banned equally, all strategy is lost, as quite simply no competitive TF2 team WANTS to play against/with the stuff that is normally not banned, you are not "building" a comp per se (you can switch it on the fly), and any top tier items you do not ban can be used by the enemy team equally.

Furthermore, at least in 6s, the bans are enacted so that all classes remain pickable, ie promotes versatility. For example, when Natascha was allowed pre-nerf, 1-2 heavies were used on each team always. Every game. Left no room for the other utilities, they were simply not used cause the item was that strong and there was no room for them.

Allowing these items in a 6s environment actually limits versatility, because the balance of TF2 is not very good, this also leads to the problem of if you implemented "picking" items and the other team couldn't, of an imbalanced game. DotA is a game where even if you get completely outpicked it is possible (yet rare) that you can win as there are numerous ways to enable an advantage. In TF2, this really wouldn't be the case.

Basically, think of this as in DotA items. If each team could ban 5 higher level items and pick 5 each, and one team managed to pick Blink Dagger so the other team couldn't - that team is probably going to win really really hard assuming equal skill. The same problem would arise in TF2, as items have just as much of an effect on the game as DotA items.

Last edited by Ranik: 05-06-2012 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:04 PM   #3
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The only non default weapons that are used are equalizer and medlocks.
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:10 PM   #4
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It would be the same items nearly every time.
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by cefyrin View Post
The only non default weapons that are used are equalizer and medlocks.
Um, well in North America the following are all used sometimes

-Crit Cola
-Boston Basher
-Direct Hit (usually at LANs tho)
-Market Gardener
-Flare Gun
-Pain Train
-Quick Fix was used in a couple games once.
-Dead Ringer
-Cloak and Dagger

A limited selection of viable unlocks isn't the problem here, the problem is that all the complexity and depth of the ban/pick system is removed since both teams could use the allowed items equally, but if they couldn't the system would still suck in TF2 because the game would be way too imbalanced, just like how in DotA if the system revolved around Items instead of Heroes - imagine in DotA if one team could use Blink Dagger and BKB but the other team couldn't. In a fair skill game, team w/o Blink Dagger + BKB would lose pretty much guaranteed. In TF2 classes + items are both too important and can't really be worked around if you can't get them but the other team can (just like DotA items), and the only way to create fairness is to make the same things able to be used on both teams.
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