Is my joystick supposed to do this?

Burro Loco · 05-04-2012, 08:09 PM

Hello everybody!
I'm relatively new to flight sims. I have Saitek Cyborg Evo I bought years ago to play Battlefield 2 and other "arcade" sims.
Now, when I try yo play A-10 with my joystick, even whith BIG dead zones the plane does not fly straight over. It always turns either left or right, sometimes it's up or down.
I don't know, since I'm new to flight sims at first I thought that it might be the wind or the plane's payload, but it's starting to bug me.

So to put it simple: when I launch a quick game, even if I don't touch the stick the plane will roll or climb. Is this normal or is my joystick broken?

Thanks for your time!

lionsunleashed · 05-05-2012, 06:14 PM

Im not sure myself as i own the same stick but i kinda know what your talking about happens to me too. I hope somebody responds to this post. ^_^

lionsunleashed · 05-05-2012, 06:17 PM

I know the guys i play with use Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog Joystick
http://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-H.../dp/B00419ZUXS

And you might want to consider buying this too

Saitek PRO Flight Combat Rudder Pedals
http://www.amazon.com/Saitek-Flight-...d_bxgy_e_img_b

But for me my wallet is not deep enough to afford one of those someday maybe. But the flight stick and pedals are designed for DSC games

Burro Loco · 05-05-2012, 06:31 PM

I'd buy those if I could but right now I have the Cyborg Evo.
It doesn't feel right, it seems that the plane is not very responsive.

lionsunleashed · 05-05-2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burro Loco

I'd buy those if I could but right now I have the Cyborg Evo.
It doesn't feel right, it seems that the plane is not very responsive.

I know like i said i have the exact same stick you do what are the both of us going to do? You can go over to the EDU site and post your comment there maybe somebody will respond. http://forums.eagle.ru/:)

lionsunleashed · 05-05-2012, 06:54 PM

Let me know if you do please report back with thread so i can follow.

lionsunleashed · 05-05-2012, 08:09 PM

I have a Cyborg Evo Force too and I also experienced the drifting (to the left in my case). But I did solve it!

I tried everything suggested in this thread, of which neither helped:
* Calibrate using old drivers
* Use the latest drivers with the drifting "fix", which actually isn't a fix since it only removes the calibration tab. Calibration is however done automatically by moving all axis to their limits a couple of times so that's not much of a problem really.
* I wiped my computer clean of every Saitek driver etc and reinstalled only the drivers for the joystick. (I don't bother to install the programming software since I don't need it now).
* Tested the same procedures on another computer without results.
* Etc etc...

This was the third day I was using the stick since I got it, which of course didn't feel too terrific...

In the end, I eliminated all possibilities of software failure which meant it could only be the hardware.
So, I opened the joystick base, only to discover that the rudder sensory system was placed in the actual stick. I put the base together again and tested, still drifting...

I took the stick apart and moved it around a bit, and the problem was suddenly obvious!

In the handle, a plastic "slice" with holes in it is moved through an optical sensor by a small gear. The slice and sensors work exactly like those found in an old mouse, except that a complete circle with holes isn't needed here since the angle of rotation is limited. I could use a couple of images here to show what it looks like, but I have none so ASCII art will have to do...
The slice as seen from above:

_______
/|||||||\ <-- The holes detected by the sensor. This end should be rounded

\ /
\ /
\ o / <- the gear through which the motion is transfered, the slice rotates around this point

The small gear on the slice had simply cogged over, causing the slice to be shifted too much to one side. When this happens, you are perfectly able to turn the stick in one direction since there are plenty of holes for the sensors to detect the whole motion. But when you turn the stick the other way, the slice isn't big enough to be inside the sensor's effective area.

When the stick is used/auto-calibrated that's a really bad thing.
It will make the drivers put the rudder "origin/center position" to a position which is somewhere near half a turn in the direction in which it can detect motion. Since the stick has a spring which causes it to move back to its physical center position when released, the driver will think you are twisting the stick.

This problem cannot be fixed with any kind of driver since it's a mechanical error. The stick is simply incapable of sensing the complete twisting motion in one of the directions, thus forcing the software to make an incorrect calibration.

Fixing the problem was pretty easy.
(Note that I won't take any responsibility for what happens if you attempt this procedure. Nor will Saitek I presume...)
Open the stick by unscrewing the 4 screws holding it together. It's not neccessary to take apart the top part with the buttons, and I don't recommend it.

Carefully open the stick cover since there's a loose pin and metal plate inside which you don't want to lose. It can be tricky to get the cover to separate near the trigger since it's a bit tight, and there are some cables in the way, but it's possible. Be careful with the trigger, there's a spring inside it which will jump out whenever it gets a chance to do so...

Remove the pin through the center of the stick and pull it off the base, mind the cables!
Now you need to unscrew the two larger screws holding the sensor and plastics in place. The rounded piece of plastic on top is what rotates the gear, and it also plays a part in the spring system centering the stick.

Now you'll see the slice with holes I was talking about earlier.
Now's the trickiest part, you must put it back together so that the slice can rotate in both directions without ever going outside the sensor range. The sensor is simply the two components on either side of the gap in the small circuit board. The slice goes in this gap while a (probably infrared) lightbeam is used to determine if the stick is moving or not.

When it's put together correctly and the two screws are fastened, the center of the slice should be aligned with the sensor. I checked this by connecting the joystick to the computer, sliding the stick back onto the base and moving it in both directions while watching the calibration meter.
Since the springs in the centering system are quite strong, it was hard to move them far enough by hand without having the rounded plastic piece screwed on. Or atleast held firmly in place where it should be positioned.

Once you see that all is working (check the other axis and buttons too, just to make sure you didn't break anything), disconnect the joystick and put the plastic cover back on, be careful with the electronics!
Enjoy a drift-free stick!

My suggestions to Saitek would be to either make the slice bigger, or to make a more robust solution which won't cog over like that...

Please note that I'm not implying that there is a mechanical error in all of the joysticks experiencing the drifting behaviour, only that it's a possiblity.

lionsunleashed · 05-05-2012, 08:11 PM

Just solved the hard-right problem on my Cyborg X. The problem was just as described, a random hard-right during game play in any game.

It was a hardware problem but easy to fix. When I took the handle off the joystick, accomplished by twisting the handle lock under the palm rest, I found a tiny bit of liquid had seeped onto the connectors. It appeared to be some sort of oil, it wasn't water and I've never spilled anything onto the joystick.

Anyway, I wiped the liquid off with my finger, re-assembled the stick, and the hard-right problem is gone completely. If I had to guess I'd say Saitek used some sort of lubricant in the stick design that eventually seeped onto the controls; annoying, but an easy solution.

lionsunleashed · 05-05-2012, 08:12 PM

I hope this helps you. ^_^

Burro Loco · 05-06-2012, 04:00 AM

Wll, to be honest I experienced similar problems years ago when I tried to play Wings over Israel. Back then I thought it was me being an awful player.
But now it's two games with the same problem.

So the problem is our joysticks are defective.
Cool.
I'll never buy Saitek stuff again.

EtherealN · 05-06-2012, 08:56 AM

Depending on the exact manifestation this might be a problem or just reality. Your description in the original post makes it sound to me like it is completely normal.

Basically, you need to "trim" the aircraft. This has to be done continuously. Having a banking moment (that is, right wing going up or down) can be caused by payloads, and also by "unclean" flying (that is, rudders not being in line). Counter this with aileron trim. Nose up/down moments are countered by elevator trim.

Note that whenever you move through the flight envelope, the trim required to keep the plane balanced will change, so if you get yourself trimmed perfectly at 10000 feet and 250 knots IAS and then accelerate to 300 knots, you'll start seeing a nose-up moment and will have to trim. Same thing goes for different altitudes and so on.

To quote real A-10C pilot: this plane is a [REDACTED] to trim.

Similarly, a very sudden wing drop can happen very easily if you overload the aircraft (that is, pull too many G's), especially in unclean flight. What happens is that one wing stalls, the other still flies, that means the stalling wing no longer produces lift while the other does produce lift. The plane obviously is no longer in balance at this point and will "flip". This is especially common if you "yank" the stick, that is - make violent stick movements. The "solution" is to be gentle with the stick. You can maneuver sharply if you do it right, but these still use much smoother stick input than what is possible with a game joystick.

To be sure if it's the stick or just your flying that is causing wing-drops, open the control monitor (Rctrl+Enter) and see if there is any unwanted commands coming from the stick.

05-04-2012, 08:09 PM	#1
Burro Loco Join Date: Aug 2011 Reputation: 141 Posts: 671	Is my joystick supposed to do this? Hello everybody! I'm relatively new to flight sims. I have Saitek Cyborg Evo I bought years ago to play Battlefield 2 and other "arcade" sims. Now, when I try yo play A-10 with my joystick, even whith BIG dead zones the plane does not fly straight over. It always turns either left or right, sometimes it's up or down. I don't know, since I'm new to flight sims at first I thought that it might be the wind or the plane's payload, but it's starting to bug me. So to put it simple: when I launch a quick game, even if I don't touch the stick the plane will roll or climb. Is this normal or is my joystick broken? Thanks for your time!

05-05-2012, 06:17 PM	#3
lionsunleashed Join Date: Nov 2011 Reputation: 84 Posts: 716	I know the guys i play with use Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog Joystick http://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-H.../dp/B00419ZUXS And you might want to consider buying this too Saitek PRO Flight Combat Rudder Pedals http://www.amazon.com/Saitek-Flight-...d_bxgy_e_img_b But for me my wallet is not deep enough to afford one of those someday maybe. But the flight stick and pedals are designed for DSC games Last edited by lionsunleashed: 05-05-2012 at 06:21 PM.

05-05-2012, 06:31 PM	#4
Burro Loco Join Date: Aug 2011 Reputation: 141 Posts: 671	I'd buy those if I could but right now I have the Cyborg Evo. It doesn't feel right, it seems that the plane is not very responsive. Last edited by Burro Loco: 05-05-2012 at 07:23 PM.

05-05-2012, 08:09 PM	#7
lionsunleashed Join Date: Nov 2011 Reputation: 84 Posts: 716	I have a Cyborg Evo Force too and I also experienced the drifting (to the left in my case). But I did solve it! I tried everything suggested in this thread, of which neither helped: * Calibrate using old drivers * Use the latest drivers with the drifting "fix", which actually isn't a fix since it only removes the calibration tab. Calibration is however done automatically by moving all axis to their limits a couple of times so that's not much of a problem really. * I wiped my computer clean of every Saitek driver etc and reinstalled only the drivers for the joystick. (I don't bother to install the programming software since I don't need it now). * Tested the same procedures on another computer without results. * Etc etc... This was the third day I was using the stick since I got it, which of course didn't feel too terrific... In the end, I eliminated all possibilities of software failure which meant it could only be the hardware. So, I opened the joystick base, only to discover that the rudder sensory system was placed in the actual stick. I put the base together again and tested, still drifting... I took the stick apart and moved it around a bit, and the problem was suddenly obvious! In the handle, a plastic "slice" with holes in it is moved through an optical sensor by a small gear. The slice and sensors work exactly like those found in an old mouse, except that a complete circle with holes isn't needed here since the angle of rotation is limited. I could use a couple of images here to show what it looks like, but I have none so ASCII art will have to do... The slice as seen from above: _______ /\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\ <-- The holes detected by the sensor. This end should be rounded \ / \ / \ o / <- the gear through which the motion is transfered, the slice rotates around this point The small gear on the slice had simply cogged over, causing the slice to be shifted too much to one side. When this happens, you are perfectly able to turn the stick in one direction since there are plenty of holes for the sensors to detect the whole motion. But when you turn the stick the other way, the slice isn't big enough to be inside the sensor's effective area. When the stick is used/auto-calibrated that's a really bad thing. It will make the drivers put the rudder "origin/center position" to a position which is somewhere near half a turn in the direction in which it can detect motion. Since the stick has a spring which causes it to move back to its physical center position when released, the driver will think you are twisting the stick. This problem cannot be fixed with any kind of driver since it's a mechanical error. The stick is simply incapable of sensing the complete twisting motion in one of the directions, thus forcing the software to make an incorrect calibration. Fixing the problem was pretty easy. (Note that I won't take any responsibility for what happens if you attempt this procedure. Nor will Saitek I presume...) Open the stick by unscrewing the 4 screws holding it together. It's not neccessary to take apart the top part with the buttons, and I don't recommend it. Carefully open the stick cover since there's a loose pin and metal plate inside which you don't want to lose. It can be tricky to get the cover to separate near the trigger since it's a bit tight, and there are some cables in the way, but it's possible. Be careful with the trigger, there's a spring inside it which will jump out whenever it gets a chance to do so... Remove the pin through the center of the stick and pull it off the base, mind the cables! Now you need to unscrew the two larger screws holding the sensor and plastics in place. The rounded piece of plastic on top is what rotates the gear, and it also plays a part in the spring system centering the stick. Now you'll see the slice with holes I was talking about earlier. Now's the trickiest part, you must put it back together so that the slice can rotate in both directions without ever going outside the sensor range. The sensor is simply the two components on either side of the gap in the small circuit board. The slice goes in this gap while a (probably infrared) lightbeam is used to determine if the stick is moving or not. When it's put together correctly and the two screws are fastened, the center of the slice should be aligned with the sensor. I checked this by connecting the joystick to the computer, sliding the stick back onto the base and moving it in both directions while watching the calibration meter. Since the springs in the centering system are quite strong, it was hard to move them far enough by hand without having the rounded plastic piece screwed on. Or atleast held firmly in place where it should be positioned. Once you see that all is working (check the other axis and buttons too, just to make sure you didn't break anything), disconnect the joystick and put the plastic cover back on, be careful with the electronics! Enjoy a drift-free stick! My suggestions to Saitek would be to either make the slice bigger, or to make a more robust solution which won't cog over like that... Please note that I'm not implying that there is a mechanical error in all of the joysticks experiencing the drifting behaviour, only that it's a possiblity. Last edited by lionsunleashed: 05-05-2012 at 08:15 PM.

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05-05-2012, 06:14 PM	#2
lionsunleashed Join Date: Nov 2011 Reputation: 84 Posts: 716	Im not sure myself as i own the same stick but i kinda know what your talking about happens to me too. I hope somebody responds to this post. ^_^

05-05-2012, 06:54 PM	#6
lionsunleashed Join Date: Nov 2011 Reputation: 84 Posts: 716	Let me know if you do please report back with thread so i can follow.

05-05-2012, 08:11 PM	#8
lionsunleashed Join Date: Nov 2011 Reputation: 84 Posts: 716	Just solved the hard-right problem on my Cyborg X. The problem was just as described, a random hard-right during game play in any game. It was a hardware problem but easy to fix. When I took the handle off the joystick, accomplished by twisting the handle lock under the palm rest, I found a tiny bit of liquid had seeped onto the connectors. It appeared to be some sort of oil, it wasn't water and I've never spilled anything onto the joystick. Anyway, I wiped the liquid off with my finger, re-assembled the stick, and the hard-right problem is gone completely. If I had to guess I'd say Saitek used some sort of lubricant in the stick design that eventually seeped onto the controls; annoying, but an easy solution.

05-05-2012, 08:12 PM	#9
lionsunleashed Join Date: Nov 2011 Reputation: 84 Posts: 716	I hope this helps you. ^_^

05-06-2012, 04:00 AM	#10
Burro Loco Join Date: Aug 2011 Reputation: 141 Posts: 671	Wll, to be honest I experienced similar problems years ago when I tried to play Wings over Israel. Back then I thought it was me being an awful player. But now it's two games with the same problem. So the problem is our joysticks are defective. Cool. I'll never buy Saitek stuff again.

05-06-2012, 08:56 AM	#11
EtherealN Join Date: Dec 2011 Reputation: 16 Posts: 99	Depending on the exact manifestation this might be a problem or just reality. Your description in the original post makes it sound to me like it is completely normal. Basically, you need to "trim" the aircraft. This has to be done continuously. Having a banking moment (that is, right wing going up or down) can be caused by payloads, and also by "unclean" flying (that is, rudders not being in line). Counter this with aileron trim. Nose up/down moments are countered by elevator trim. Note that whenever you move through the flight envelope, the trim required to keep the plane balanced will change, so if you get yourself trimmed perfectly at 10000 feet and 250 knots IAS and then accelerate to 300 knots, you'll start seeing a nose-up moment and will have to trim. Same thing goes for different altitudes and so on. To quote real A-10C pilot: this plane is a [REDACTED] to trim. Similarly, a very sudden wing drop can happen very easily if you overload the aircraft (that is, pull too many G's), especially in unclean flight. What happens is that one wing stalls, the other still flies, that means the stalling wing no longer produces lift while the other does produce lift. The plane obviously is no longer in balance at this point and will "flip". This is especially common if you "yank" the stick, that is - make violent stick movements. The "solution" is to be gentle with the stick. You can maneuver sharply if you do it right, but these still use much smoother stick input than what is possible with a game joystick. To be sure if it's the stick or just your flying that is causing wing-drops, open the control monitor (Rctrl+Enter) and see if there is any unwanted commands coming from the stick.