Character Damage issue.

LordOfTheFattys · 05-06-2012, 02:10 AM

Isaac's damage is marked by a 2. It takes him 3 hits to kill most enemies in the Basement. Most notably, It takes him two hits to kill attack flies, and one to kill black flies. This is established.

Cain is marked as having one more damage then Isaac. When Isaac is upgraded with exactly +1 to damage, Red flies die in one hit, and most basement enemies who were previous three hits to kill are now only two hits. But Cain requires two hits for red flies, three for all those enemies. Judas is marked as TWO higher then Isaac, and yet the same fact is true for him, two hits on attack flies, Three on various weak enemies. All the same base damage as Isaac

As a point of comparison, Eve is marked as 1 damage, to Isaac's 2. She takes two hits on black flies, two on attack flies, And four for most of those three hit enemies. So her damage is visibly and noticeably lower, While Cain and Judas both appear to have the same damage as Isaac.

I had a similar post in the past, but the explanation as unsatisfactory. The explanation as simply that the damage bonus of Cain and Judas is smaller then an Item's damage upgrade. So while their damage is higher, It's too small of a bonus to change the number of hits most enemies take, and that they would reveal their damage differences in their fights with Bosses. But I still feel, With Judas being marked as starting with DOUBLE Isaac's attack power, there should be SOME notable difference, Shouldn't there?

Can someone please explain? Someone more intelligent or diligent then me, preferably...

Upside · 05-06-2012, 02:58 AM

They only have a small percentage of damage added on, but the problem is that enemies don't have their hp measures in terms of one hit or two hits or whatever, but a number.

Say Isaac does 50 damage, and a black fly has 45 health. Isaac obviously kills the fly in one hit. Eve, who is one stage lower, takes two hits to kill it, probably doing about 40 damage. Judas, despite doing something like 70 damage, would be indestinguishable from Isaac.

I made these numbers up, but Edmund said that the system was something like this.

LordOfTheFattys · 05-06-2012, 04:11 AM

Okay, if that were the case, then I suppose I have two major complaints. The first being that the Displays of character stats are very misleading, And the second is that it seems that misleading display promised more of a trade off for the reduced health then was delivered, and, at least for Judas, It's a lot less worth it to play that character.

jareddm3 · 05-06-2012, 06:14 AM

The benefit comes from various items like the razor blade and the book of belial, which don't add on damage but instead multiply it. For Judas this is a huge increase compared to other characters.

Upside · 05-06-2012, 06:36 AM

Exactly, multipliers are much better on Judas, and flat bonuses are better on Maggie and Eve (who already has a multiplier).

The way I see it, is that the characters are balanced fairly well.

Judas trades one heart container for Book of Belial, an amazing starting item, and one heart container for a damage up at the start of the game. So, he is power-up even. He tends to get more devil rooms too, due to the Book of Belial and his glass cannon style. He might not always have the health to trade, but odds are you will be able to before you replace the Book.

I was going to do a chart of some sort to show their balance, but it's fairly obvious.

LordOfTheFattys · 05-06-2012, 02:09 PM

Oh. Well. I was unaware of the whole "Multiplier" part. I guess that makes a lot of sense. I don't know. I guess I'm glad I asked for someone smarter then me.

Upside · 05-07-2012, 03:12 AM

It's not made explicit in the game, but they are definitely multipliers...

Razor Blade, Babylon and Belial are, of which Belial appears to be the biggest multiplier.

As an estimate, I'd say that Babylon in 1.5x and Belial is 2x, but I haven't used the Razor Blade enough to guess.

05-06-2012, 02:10 AM	#1
LordOfTheFattys Join Date: Oct 2011 Reputation: 0 Posts: 9	Character Damage issue. Isaac's damage is marked by a 2. It takes him 3 hits to kill most enemies in the Basement. Most notably, It takes him two hits to kill attack flies, and one to kill black flies. This is established. Cain is marked as having one more damage then Isaac. When Isaac is upgraded with exactly +1 to damage, Red flies die in one hit, and most basement enemies who were previous three hits to kill are now only two hits. But Cain requires two hits for red flies, three for all those enemies. Judas is marked as TWO higher then Isaac, and yet the same fact is true for him, two hits on attack flies, Three on various weak enemies. All the same base damage as Isaac As a point of comparison, Eve is marked as 1 damage, to Isaac's 2. She takes two hits on black flies, two on attack flies, And four for most of those three hit enemies. So her damage is visibly and noticeably lower, While Cain and Judas both appear to have the same damage as Isaac. I had a similar post in the past, but the explanation as unsatisfactory. The explanation as simply that the damage bonus of Cain and Judas is smaller then an Item's damage upgrade. So while their damage is higher, It's too small of a bonus to change the number of hits most enemies take, and that they would reveal their damage differences in their fights with Bosses. But I still feel, With Judas being marked as starting with DOUBLE Isaac's attack power, there should be SOME notable difference, Shouldn't there? Can someone please explain? Someone more intelligent or diligent then me, preferably...

05-06-2012, 06:36 AM	#5
Upside Join Date: Dec 2010 Reputation: 23 Posts: 216	Exactly, multipliers are much better on Judas, and flat bonuses are better on Maggie and Eve (who already has a multiplier). The way I see it, is that the characters are balanced fairly well. Judas trades one heart container for Book of Belial, an amazing starting item, and one heart container for a damage up at the start of the game. So, he is power-up even. He tends to get more devil rooms too, due to the Book of Belial and his glass cannon style. He might not always have the health to trade, but odds are you will be able to before you replace the Book. I was going to do a chart of some sort to show their balance, but it's fairly obvious. Last edited by Upside: 05-06-2012 at 06:38 AM. Reason: Actually, this pretty much is equivalent to buying a BoB and getting a pentagram. So, it's an exact 2 for 2 item trade.

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05-06-2012, 02:58 AM	#2
Upside Join Date: Dec 2010 Reputation: 23 Posts: 216	They only have a small percentage of damage added on, but the problem is that enemies don't have their hp measures in terms of one hit or two hits or whatever, but a number. Say Isaac does 50 damage, and a black fly has 45 health. Isaac obviously kills the fly in one hit. Eve, who is one stage lower, takes two hits to kill it, probably doing about 40 damage. Judas, despite doing something like 70 damage, would be indestinguishable from Isaac. I made these numbers up, but Edmund said that the system was something like this.

05-06-2012, 04:11 AM	#3
LordOfTheFattys Join Date: Oct 2011 Reputation: 0 Posts: 9	Okay, if that were the case, then I suppose I have two major complaints. The first being that the Displays of character stats are very misleading, And the second is that it seems that misleading display promised more of a trade off for the reduced health then was delivered, and, at least for Judas, It's a lot less worth it to play that character.

05-06-2012, 06:14 AM	#4
jareddm3 Join Date: Sep 2011 Reputation: 16 Posts: 128	The benefit comes from various items like the razor blade and the book of belial, which don't add on damage but instead multiply it. For Judas this is a huge increase compared to other characters.

05-06-2012, 02:09 PM	#6
LordOfTheFattys Join Date: Oct 2011 Reputation: 0 Posts: 9	Oh. Well. I was unaware of the whole "Multiplier" part. I guess that makes a lot of sense. I don't know. I guess I'm glad I asked for someone smarter then me.

05-07-2012, 03:12 AM	#7
Upside Join Date: Dec 2010 Reputation: 23 Posts: 216	It's not made explicit in the game, but they are definitely multipliers... Razor Blade, Babylon and Belial are, of which Belial appears to be the biggest multiplier. As an estimate, I'd say that Babylon in 1.5x and Belial is 2x, but I haven't used the Razor Blade enough to guess.