So, regarding the Degreaser being called a crutch as of late... - Page 10

TuxedoRex · 05-07-2012, 06:58 AM

Anyone who disagrees with me is just mad because they got killed by something because they're no good at the game.

Well, no. See, the point I'm making is-

LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! YOU'RE TOO MAD!

KajiVena · 05-07-2012, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heisterburg

Why the heck are we arguing over such stupid semantics as this? Heck, I can make an argument that the Kritzkrieg and Gunboats require less skill than stock. Kritzkrieg makes it so the Medic doesn't have to stay alive as long, which makes it better for a bad Medic who can't survive. Gunboats makes bombing and getting out of bad situations easier.

I'm fairly certain those arguments have been made, especially for Gunboats (some league's reason for banning them).

Heisterburg · 05-07-2012, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KajiVena

I'm fairly certain those arguments have been made, especially for Gunboats (some league's reason for banning them).

Well, if the Degreaser is only as unbalanced as the Kritzkrieg and Gunboats then I would say its pretty darn balanced.

KajiVena · 05-07-2012, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heisterburg

Well, if the Degreaser is only as unbalanced as the Kritzkrieg and Gunboats then I would say its pretty darn balanced.

Proof that the state of balance has nothing to with whether or not a weapon is a crutch.

Monoman · 05-07-2012, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FunkyBoss

Liberty launcher
Backburner
Loch-n-Load
Caber
Sydney Sleeper
Razorback

I know this is you opinion, but LnL and caber?

LnL: 1. removes rollers, the bread and butter of noob demomen. 2. Reduced clip size so you'd have to hit 100% accurately (+ no spam), but those 2 shots are easier. It's not really a crutch, just straight up garbage (but fun garbage nonetheless).

Caber: The only use I've seen out of the caber (other than that sticky jumping guy returning the favour to snipers) would be to hopefully take down that scout with yourself. I would say it's just crap like the LnL rather than a crutch since even pro demomen can benefit from that.

I agree with everything else, except the backburner. Backburner could use some changes imo, but I find it about as useful for good/bad players as the flamethrower. Besides phlog does it's old role far better.

mariofan38 · 05-07-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TuxedoRex

Anyone who disagrees with me is just mad because they got killed by something because they're no good at the game.

Well, no. See, the point I'm making is-

LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! YOU'RE TOO MAD!

If only we could have signatures...

Incarnati0n · 05-07-2012, 01:42 PM

I assume everyone already went over definitions of the word crutch and how the Degreaser isn't one, so I'll just focus on waht matters.

If you use the Stock Flamethrower because Degreaser feels too easy to you, good for you, you're simply a good pyro who needs a challenge. If you look down on Degreaser pyro's however, you're an idiot. No matter how good you are, you can do things with the Degreaser which are simply literally impossible with the Flamethrower; there will be situations where you could attack an enemy if you had a super fast puffsting/flarepunch in your arsenal, which you couldn't have engaged with the Stock. This is simple fact.

NinjaScot · 05-07-2012, 01:58 PM

I've found that the Degreaser is more of a liability for me than a crutch. A crutch would imply that I rely on it in order to get kills and never get any better in the process. But the Degreaser's fast switch ability has given me a bad habit of trying to stack up combos instead of simply burning. Often times, I would end up zigging instead of zagging and have my detonator out just in time to get a crit rocket to the face.

Recently, I've been playing with the vanilla Pyro and have been doing pretty well. Better than my switch-happy days, in fact. I really gotta thank thejimz for showing me the light.

Stat_Bot · 05-07-2012, 05:01 PM

I like afterburn way too much. And so do my teammates

brphoenix · 05-07-2012, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiloace

So maybe Degreaser is a catalyst for other crutchy weapons?

This sentence got me thinking.

The degreaser's not the only combo weapon in the game. It is the only one that has an "active" combo, but not the only one.

While I disagree with the "crutchy weapons" part (axtinguisher is not a crutch, nor is the flare gun, nor is the shotgun...), the "catalyst" part is what interested me the most.

The way I see it, the degreaser isn't strong on its own. In fact, if you use it alone, it's worse than the stock flamer. It only really shines when used in conjunction with other weapons.

We have other stuff in the game that work that way. Demomen swords, for instance. If you rely ONLY on them, you wouldn't be very successful.
However, use it in conjunction with a shield of your choice, and you have a somewhat powerful setup.

While no other weapon is as... "catalystic" as the degreaser, several others share that aspect - enhancing another weapon's capabilities.

the brofist · 05-07-2012, 09:31 PM

In my opinion the degreaser itself is not a crutch, but opens up a crutchy playstyle revolving around your axtinguisher. Most people consider using your secondary and quickly switching and airblasting to be what gives it a higher skill cap.

Both a skilled play and a less skilled player will benefit, but the skilled one gains far more out of it.

TuxedoRex · 05-08-2012, 06:50 AM

Degreaser doesn't allow for a higher level of skill. You just get a much much higher reward for the same "amount" of skill used.

Saying the Degreaser raises the skill ceiling is like saying a Rocket Launcher with infinite clip would raise Soldier's. Think off all the rocket-jumping juggle-combo madness you could pull of if you were good! Except you'd still be using the same general amount of skill, you'd just get more out of it, because you wouldn't be restricted by ammo management or timing as much- similarly with the Degreaser you can do more and more often, but it's only because you aren't restricted by time-costs in weapon switching.

I'm not going to try to argue that the Degreaser is overpowered or less skilled or whatever, but it does not raise the skill ceiling.
Equal skill -> higher reward.

Kiloace · 05-08-2012, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TuxedoRex

Degreaser doesn't allow for a higher level of skill. You just get a much much higher reward for the same "amount" of skill used.

It technically does, where you can now flarepunch 2 enemies in the time you need with stock to do 1. It allows you to do more in less time. The skill comes in where you can utilize that speed to your best ability.

Quote:

Saying the Degreaser raises the skill ceiling is like saying a Rocket Launcher with infinite clip would raise Soldier's.

Yes it would.

Quote:

Think off all the rocket-jumping juggle-combo madness you could pull of if you were good! Except you'd still be using the same general amount of skill, you'd just get more out of it, because you wouldn't be restricted by ammo management or timing as much- similarly with the Degreaser you can do more and more often, but it's only because you aren't restricted by time-costs in weapon switching.

That is essentially raising the skill ceiling. You aren't using the same amount of skill. You are using more because you have to maintain that ability to infinitely rocket jump and juggle.

Its the same as cooking with an oven with 2 extra trays then the norm. Takes more skill to cook and manage 4 things at once, but with only 2 trays you are forced to put out less skill to use it, simply because it doesn't have the capacity to allow for more.

Quote:

I'm not going to try to argue that the Degreaser is overpowered or less skilled or whatever, but it does not raise the skill ceiling.
Equal skill -> higher reward.

Equal skill --> higher reward only applies to a weapon that is a definite straight upgrade, like the amputator. Here you are using it exactly the same as the stock bonesaw, but it has a taunt that lets you heal teammates.

Even the Degreaser is not a definite straight upgrade, and its upside isn't a straight higher reward. You have to combo more to get more, but the switch speed allows you to do it.

NinjaScot · 05-08-2012, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiloace

That is essentially raising the skill ceiling. You aren't using the same amount of skill. You are using more because you have to maintain that ability to infinitely rocket jump and juggle.

Its the same as cooking with an oven with 2 extra trays then the norm. Takes more skill to cook and manage 4 things at once, but with only 2 trays you are forced to put out less skill to use it, simply because it doesn't have the capacity to allow for more.

I feel like I need to chime in here.

Isn't dealing with the limitation of the rocket launcher a facet of skill?

I see that a rocket launcher with infinite rockets has more potential for airshots, but you've removed the penalty for spraying rockets everywhere for no reason.

Kiloace · 05-08-2012, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaScot

I feel like I need to chime in here.

Isn't dealing with the limitation of the rocket launcher a facet of skill?

To a very mild extent.

Quote:

I see that a rocket launcher with infinite rockets has more potential for airshots, but you've removed the penalty for spraying rockets everywhere for no reason.

Too mild to actually counter the potential for multiple airshots. And rate of fire isn't countered by a bottomless clip.

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05-07-2012, 06:58 AM	#136
TuxedoRex Join Date: Jan 2010 Reputation: 285 Posts: 1,581	Anyone who disagrees with me is just mad because they got killed by something because they're no good at the game. Well, no. See, the point I'm making is- LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! YOU'RE TOO MAD!

05-07-2012, 01:42 PM	#142
Incarnati0n Join Date: Jul 2009 Reputation: 1257 Posts: 4,982	I assume everyone already went over definitions of the word crutch and how the Degreaser isn't one, so I'll just focus on waht matters. If you use the Stock Flamethrower because Degreaser feels too easy to you, good for you, you're simply a good pyro who needs a challenge. If you look down on Degreaser pyro's however, you're an idiot. No matter how good you are, you can do things with the Degreaser which are simply literally impossible with the Flamethrower; there will be situations where you could attack an enemy if you had a super fast puffsting/flarepunch in your arsenal, which you couldn't have engaged with the Stock. This is simple fact.

05-07-2012, 01:58 PM	#143
NinjaScot Join Date: Sep 2009 Reputation: 210 Posts: 1,322	I've found that the Degreaser is more of a liability for me than a crutch. A crutch would imply that I rely on it in order to get kills and never get any better in the process. But the Degreaser's fast switch ability has given me a bad habit of trying to stack up combos instead of simply burning. Often times, I would end up zigging instead of zagging and have my detonator out just in time to get a crit rocket to the face. Recently, I've been playing with the vanilla Pyro and have been doing pretty well. Better than my switch-happy days, in fact. I really gotta thank thejimz for showing me the light.

05-07-2012, 05:01 PM	#144
Stat_Bot Join Date: Mar 2012 Reputation: 445 Posts: 2,452	I like afterburn way too much. And so do my teammates

05-07-2012, 09:31 PM	#146
the brofist Join Date: Apr 2011 Reputation: 160 Posts: 592	In my opinion the degreaser itself is not a crutch, but opens up a crutchy playstyle revolving around your axtinguisher. Most people consider using your secondary and quickly switching and airblasting to be what gives it a higher skill cap. Both a skilled play and a less skilled player will benefit, but the skilled one gains far more out of it.

05-08-2012, 06:50 AM	#147
TuxedoRex Join Date: Jan 2010 Reputation: 285 Posts: 1,581	Degreaser doesn't allow for a higher level of skill. You just get a much much higher reward for the same "amount" of skill used. Saying the Degreaser raises the skill ceiling is like saying a Rocket Launcher with infinite clip would raise Soldier's. Think off all the rocket-jumping juggle-combo madness you could pull of if you were good! Except you'd still be using the same general amount of skill, you'd just get more out of it, because you wouldn't be restricted by ammo management or timing as much- similarly with the Degreaser you can do more and more often, but it's only because you aren't restricted by time-costs in weapon switching. I'm not going to try to argue that the Degreaser is overpowered or less skilled or whatever, but it does not raise the skill ceiling. Equal skill -> higher reward.