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Old 05-04-2012, 05:35 AM   #121
Suh
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaztr View Post
It's sounds to me like most people are focusing their argument on the wrong thing: it's not a matter of how customizable the characters' stats are in each game, it's the matter of how easy it is to change your character's skills/stats at the click of a button.
It is: skills are the bread & butter of your char in a H&S; stats (and so gear) is just a way to improve your skills or compensate your weakness.
No one had ever CHOSEN gears in a H&S, everyone take the one that fits their build ... but there's no build anymore.

Let's take an example: the Monk in D3.
If you ever tried the Monk in multiplayer (or any melee in a H&S), you know you NEED a gap-closer if you don't want to see 75% of the mobs *disappear*.

The monk can choose between 4 gap-closers. (customization)
- 1 is tied to your primary skill, cost nothing, have no cd (plus that said skill is the best to build Spirit, so you can still use costly finisher)
- 3 others either: cost Spirit (apply for all 3, which sux in our multiplayer case since you'll never hit a mob, so you'll never build spirit, so you'll never charge, so ...), have cd (who would care about a gap-closer with cd when we can use an instant TP with no CD?), or take a slot of a good finisher.

So
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foulplay View Post
No two players in D3 will use the same combination of gear, stats from gems, runes, passive skils and active skills due to the totally open nature of the systems, and the removal of skill trees means there are no cookie-cutter or flavour of the month builds with inherant "best" options. All skills are viable and the player chooses their own combination of skills and runes without being limited by the skill tree they chose.
would you bet a D3 copy that 90% of monk's build will use Fists of Thunder with Thunderclap?
There's "best" options, you're just blinded by passion.
And with the same logic community will find the best gear (and so gems and whatever) for the said char.

The removal of the skill trees means there are no more nuances.
Before you could do an Ice Sorc with remaining points in Lightning to take usefull skills (like TP), or a PvP Lightning Sorc with remaining points in Ice for the control.
Same apply for the Necro, who could go mostly Curses and some Bone's spell to play in a group, or mainly Invo + 1 or 2 curses for solo purpose.
Now you just choose a skill, wich is not even chosen as demonstrated, and all the gear needed will be obvious.
Customization uh?

For the "crafting" system: I laughed (hard).
That's EXACTLY the same thing than the bartender from D2. There's NOTHING about craft there.
Choose an item type > pay > random.
Ow yeah, instead of selling items for gold, and buying random items for that gold, you destroy items for junk, and pay your random item with the said junk.
"That awesome cat, isn't he cute?"

Last edited by Suh: 05-04-2012 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:39 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Neriot View Post
Runic aren't focusing on short-term, day one sales.
They're expecting that everyone with any interest in the genre will pick it up eventually.
It is true but most games make their biggest margins in the first months. After that you have to lower the price, the marketing is not as strong as the hype preceding the release, etc etc etc

About the respec thingy in D3, most of players at high levels are using templates and know which skills to spec. Seriously in D2, you would find always the same kind of skills at a higher level so the argument about not having more diversity is a bit moot because it would take hardcore gamers only 1/2 day to make another char and bring it to level 70 ...

Last edited by BlueTrin: 05-07-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:42 PM   #123
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Torchlight 2 has a cow level!
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:00 AM   #124
prophecy holder
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrin View Post
It is true but most games make their biggest margins in the first months. After that you have to lower the price, the marketing is not as strong as the hype preceding the release, etc etc etc

About the respec thingy in D3, most of players at high levels are using templates and know which skills to spec. Seriously in D2, you would find always the same kind of skills at a higher level so the argument about not having more diversity is a bit moot because it would take hardcore gamers only 1/2 day to make another char and bring it to level 70 ...
Actually you can lvl a character in Diablo 2 from 1-90 in only a few hours. What do you is get 2 cookie cutter hammerdins and 2 smitadins. Get a few lvl 1's and keep them in town.

Step 1: Get all ingrediants for uber tristram

Step 2) Open the port and position the lvl ones in one of the buildings

Step 3) Have one paladin with the resist aura (forgot name) and damage aura so Mephisto (could be baal, forgot which one) doesn't kill them.

Step 4) Kill adds the ubers spawn and the lvl 1's will soon become lvl 90's.

Repeat process until you are done and then kill ubers.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:31 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by kyleh613 View Post
The thing I like about Diablo III, over TL2, is that D3 has a lot more personality behind it. It's a completely unique, and new take on the action RPG genre. Blizzard was the only developer willing to take a huge risk, and attempt to change up what we've been playing for action RPGs since 1999. I have to give them big props for that. I don't like the Battle.net service itself though, but Diablo III as a game is fantastic.

The always online thing is a non-issue for me either way.

Torchlight II is going to be fun, but at the sametime it's a very copy/paste experience. It brings nothing new to the table, it's a shorter game, and takes no risk. I think i'll be playing Diablo III a lot longer than TL2.
There's nothing unique about Diablo 3. You can't have unique if the previous two installments play out the same way.

And Torchlight has much more features than D3.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:47 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by amaranty
[There exists a] lack of talent trees and automatic leveling in Diablo 3. This means that every character of the same class and level has the same unlocked skills and the same attribute points. The only customizable options are gear and which six spells you choose to keybind to 1-4 and the right and left mouse buttons. Therefore, there is no value to creating two characters of the same class with the exception of questing with a lower level friend. Sadly, I can understand why Blizzard made the game so simplistic and limited the only true customization to gear choices. In Diablo 3, there will be a real-money auction house where players buy/sell gear to/from one another using real money, and Blizzard gets a cut of each sale. So if the only way to improve or differentiate a character is through gear... well, you get the picture.
The quote is funny because it is so wrong I barely know where to start, and I played D2 for 10 years.

There is only ONE mathematically correct way to put stats in D2 for 99.9% of builds; which means either you gimp yourself or you don't, no "customization" here. It doesn't add any real value to the game. Yeah, I wonder why Blizzard thought that a was terrible system and abandoned it.

The only customizable options are gear and which six spells you choose to keybind to 1-4 and the right and left mouse buttons

I think somebody conveniently forgot that each class in D3 has 110+ active skills and 15+ passives, every single one of them is designed to be viable all the way to endgame...Compared to a Sorceress that has 1/3 skills rendered useless just in Hell. Which has more customization?


"So if the only way to improve or differentiate a character is through gear... well, you get the picture."

Congrats! That was the also the WHOLE point of Diablo 2! Thanks Captain Obvious. For D2 players that used cookie cutter builds that was the only way to improve their characters unless they do dumb things like pumping energy for their Barbs etc. D3 is the exact same thing except you can't gimp yourself permanently anymore simply by playing the game.


Diablo 3, there will be a real-money auction house where players buy/sell gear to/from one another using real money, and Blizzard gets a cut of each sale.

Yeah that seems bad until everyone was trading in D2 with sleazy third party sites, scams were everywhere and so much time/money wasted by players dealing all that crap. Nobody really won except hackers and scammers. Oh dear, how greedy of Blizzard to put an end to that with a better and more efficient trading system.

I guess all that makes me a Blizz Hammer Legion Member, while Runic Hammer Legion Members are championing the default melee attack in TL2 as the epitome of the Diablo genre. Seriously I'm not making this up.

http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23559

Last edited by Assorted: 05-10-2012 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:36 PM   #127
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love hasty generalization and how dump people swallows/spits those things without questioning them XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assorted View Post
There is only ONE mathematically correct way to put stats in D2 for 99.9% of builds
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assorted View Post
EVERYONE was trading in D2 with sleazy third party sites
IMHO cookie cutter builds players are no more than a bunch of no brainers who are unable to make a single choice on their own and may god bewilder those who pay hard earned money for a worthless item made out of a few bites of 0X code in less than a microsecond

I Played the Diablo series games and expansions since they came up and I have never ever had to restart a character because I "screwed the stats" less paid real money for worthless imaginary goods. That's for losers ¬¬

people get the governments they deserve, I say let losers get the games they deserve

Last edited by Rahab_mx: 05-10-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:15 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahab_mx View Post
love hasty generalization and how dump people swallows/spits those things without questioning them XD





IMHO cookie cutter builds players are no more than a bunch of no brainers who are unable to make a single choice on their own and may god bewilder those who pay hard earned money for a worthless item made out of a few bites of 0X code in less than a microsecond

I Played the Diablo series games and expansions since they came up and I have never ever had to restart a character because I "screwed the stats" less paid real money for worthless imaginary goods. That's for losers ¬¬

people get the governments they deserve, I say let losers get the games they deserve
Right. God forbid the game becomes a bit more challenging when someone doesn't resort to EZ-mode min/max archetypes for the sake of optimizing PvE/PvP builds. We oughta just take out all the guesswork and learning from our experiences and all that other BS that make games seem less 1-dimensional.

Oh Dear God. Hell was a place where certain enemies had innate fire and lightning immunity. What an unspeakable design choice.

Not buying D3. Screw BattleNET. Screw their DRM. Screw loot commercialization, unbalanced PvP, zero mod and LAN support, and screw Blizzard.

TL2 and Dark Souls FTW. That's all the dungeon crawling I'll need for 2012.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:55 PM   #129
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If the original post were a Wikipedia article, it would have something like "the neutrality of this article has been disputed" written all over the top. Neither game has been released. Saying a game "could" or "would" have certain features (especially in Torchlight 2's case, where the release date isn't even nailed down yet) is rather telling. You can't say "does" because neither game is released. However, Diablo III has definitely gone gold, and the product is finished. Also, the comment about the game potentially being hard to run on some systems seems prejudiced given Blizzard's published sys reqs.

I simply don't think it's fair to say that Torchlight 2 "would" or "will" have certain features, when the game doesn't even have a release date and hasn't gone gold or been released. Regardless of what Runic has SAID will be in the game.
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Old 05-12-2012, 05:40 AM   #130
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I'll be offering my opinion on Blizzard.

Torchlight was an amazing game. So was Diablo II. Overall I enjoyed Diablo II more, though. I've admittedly been a Blizzard fan-boy 95% of my life. Even through the horror that is World of Warcraft and how it ruined any chance I'd continue to enjoy the lore of the Warcraft series, I stuck to them. After all, there was still StarCraft II and Diablo III to look forward to, right?

StarCraft II was fine, despite it not appealing to the mapper/modder in me very well in terms of publicity, but the editor and gameplay was just so enjoyable, it didn't matter much to me. The lore has been messed up a little, but I can bare it.

Now, World of Warcraft, which I continued to glance at every so often, just looked like it was getting worse and worse. It was a little disheartening that my favorite company was sinking so low with it.

Lately a friend allowed me into his account to try out Diablo III. From what I saw, the game was looking nice. That is, until I played it. The game has been stripped of it's strategic path selection. I can't enjoy a game that has so little customization. Such linear gameplay. Diablo III seems to have destroyed any personalization. I'm just another Witch Doctor of the thousands, nothing different.

Of all the flaws of the auction houses, the internet-only, all of it. None of it could make me not want to play it except this. The gameplay. After well over a century, Diablo III has officially relinquished my Blizzard fan-boyism. Outside the StarCraft series, and that's assuming they don't butcher that before they're done, I don't plan on buying any future Blizzard products.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:13 AM   #131
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Torchlight is a charming game with very fluent and fun gameplay. You shouldn't compare it to Diablo, Torchlight is an indie game made by some diablo devs, it is not a full priced title so it shouldn't be reviewed as one.
For 15 euros you get plenty hours of fun and that's all you can expect from it. The story is hardly worth mentioning, that's the only thing that really bothers me to be honest.
I myself am a complete lootwh*re, so I had tons of fun with this game, it's all about clearing a dungeon and looting lots of stuff. The graphics are nice and colourful and do not require high specs.
If you like games like diablo, then you must give torchlight a chance, it's a really decent game.

Pro:
- Nice graphicstyle
- Fluent gameplay
- Price/quality


Con:
- Lack of story
- Simplistic
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:45 AM   #132
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why I will play D3 even with your TLDR explanation/comparison

History:

I won a magazine contest for Diablo 2 beta that flew me SF and meet the devs. I'm pretty sure the Schaefer brothers were there but the one person that stands out that I won't forget is Bill Roper, overall nice guys. It was full of bugs, lol. I remember trying to enter the "Den of Evil" cave and it would lock up 2-3 users.

Torchlight Series:

According to my steam, I played it for 104+ hours though I'm sure I played more than that. I didn't get to max out my Vanquisher because I can't stand the lack of randomness in both dungeon layout and items in high levels (I think she was level late 80's). Even downloading mods didn't help.

Character Customization:

I agree, none of hero in D3 can be customized "in appearance" but why do I need to? They will be wearing awesome gears and this is an isometric view and definitely not a MMO.

Now let's talk about the real customization in action rpg the skills (i won't even talk about the "stats" because that's a lame customization). Okay Torchlight 2 followed the old school skill tree with decent amount of active and passive skills. Based on the video playthrough I watched using the Engineer, each tree has 13 skill in it and I'm assuming it's a combo of active and passive for a total of 39 skills for the Engineer. That's an improvement for T1 if I remember it correctly. Good amount of choice there.

Now let's talk about Diablo 3's skill which I will focus only on Barbarian's. The barbarian has 22 active skill alone then with D3's new "skill rune" system which "each" active skill has 5 different affect making it a whopping 110 total. Oh before I forget he has 16 total passives. So who has more customazation, now?

Connection Requirements:

When I don't have internet, I will play T2 but as soon as internet is back I'll play D3 just as simple as that.

Music:

Just to let you know since you didn't mention that Matt Uelman has more than 10 music for D3. I won't deny that I will miss Matt's music but that's why there's T2

Voice Acting:

T2's NPC voice acting from the engineer video I saw was kinda stiff. I'm downloading the T2 beta as I type this so I'll have more info when I play it. On D3's beta, I like the VOs so far, I didn't talk to every NPC because I don't want to spoil it but as far as male hero, they're all good so far.

Cheesy lines, oh come on man what would have him said instead? Please tell, seriously...

Pets:

If there's another of that annoying voice that "you're pet has fled" I'm going to slap someone in Runic!

D3 don't have pets but has 3 followers each with their own skills to choose from.

Modding:

Hope the modding community makes even better mods for T2. D3 doesn't need mods to what it offers, I think it's enough.

Social:

Have to admit I was kinda bummed out when they announced only max of 4 (should've made max 5!) for D3 then I figure that with the particle effects and such it's better that way.

I will probably want to stay with 5 even in T2. I still want to see my character!

Conclusion:

I will say it out loud! I WILL BUY BOTH!!! but at the same time admit that I like D3 more than T2. This is a personal choice and don't flame me. In general, I like loot oriented action RPGs. Make them and I will play and support the heck outa them as much as I can.

It's a good year for loot oriented action rpgs (diablo 3, torchlight 2, borderlands 2, grim dawn, etc.) so as fan of this genre it's a win!!!
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:02 AM   #133
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Eh, don't see the need to whine, , and complain over this.

More people are going to spend their money on the AAA game over the indie game. Besides, the measure of success for the indie game will be far different than the AAA game. Even the people that swear off Diablo III in favor of Torchlight II, will probable still buy it some time down the road. Enough people that have grown on the genre will find it too hard to resist it and will eventually cave. Even some of the avid D3 players might peek into TL II because of the price.

Most of the beef people have with D3 is that it's been spoiled by the success of WoW. By "socializing" the games more and making them pseudoMMOs, they've gone too far from the roots (removing LAN was a big beef with the hardcore gaming community). It is a valid compliant, yes (see Heroes VI and Ubisoft), but you can't blame them for trying to make more money (which too many times degrades their products with success).

Bottomline, TL II will be a success. D3 will be a huge success. Even with massive campaigns for one or the other, nothing will change drastically one way or the other. Blizzard will keep pumping out DLC to make more money. Runic will keep polishing up their IP to increase their success.

In my case, I've already bought 2 copies of TL II and will be LANing TL I with the MP mod for it (not perfect, but good enough) until July (when TL II comes out). I'll also buy into Path of Exile to help support them. I'll only buy into Diablo III if the game can't be pirated or reverse engineered well enough to support LAN, but I'll be playing through the single player at least once. If I see a good sale, I'll buy it.

Last edited by Xathos: 05-14-2012 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 05-14-2012, 04:51 AM   #134
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Torchlight was made by the original Diablo developers. They had all the insider information and knew absolutely everything there was to know about the development of an action-RPG. And Torchlight wasn't as good as Diablo 2.

Torchlight 2 is being developed by the same people, who now have no insider information on the game they are going to compete with. They are frantically stealing features (buff icons that pop up? Charge building-up? Or maybe auto gold-pickup, anyone?), but it's going to be futile.

I consider the $20 price tag not as a price tag, but as a fine for picking the wrong game.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:52 AM   #135
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D3 campaign can be completed in under 6 hours on normal
Good luck to anyone trying to beat that with TL2.

I just hope D3 has good re-playability value since I pre-ordered both, 6+ player coop in TL2 is awesome so far in the beta.
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