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Old 05-09-2012, 05:35 PM   #136
markcocjin
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i9urd View Post
I tried the game last week - played two matches, didn't finish either one. Just not the genre for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mule001 View Post
it's hard to be a new player in dota 2 atm - there's no level ranking so I suggest you play LoL and play bots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
keep proving my point about Dota 2 communities



actually no, i didnt know

before we continue could you take a screenshot? the game is a hellish nightmare to learn but that isnt what bothered me the most about it, it was the horrendous HUD, if they changed that i might go back for 1 last try


i dont think id stay tough, SMNC is by far the most fun MOBA ive ever played
This is the new HUD.

After reading all of your comments, I really suggest that you don't try it again. It's not for you.

I'd like to commend Sly_Squash for really wanting to enjoy the game and succeeding at it. If this was a match at Dota 2, I'd commend you as well.

Dota 2 is a lot like boxing in a way that you get really beat up even learning it. If you love the training, and you love the winning, Boxing is for you.

Dota 2 is also like driving. There's a lot of hostile people out on the road and you can't really choose who you share your lane with if you're out on the highway. It's complex even if you're driving on an automatic because not only have to be able to manipulate the vehicle, you also have to have awareness of your surroundings. Your eyes have to be glancing at all the mirrors and gauges. You have to also turn your head to look at spots as you move into them while making signals of your intention for others to see. You also have to be able to read the other drivers whose driving style will affect you. Then there's random things that just happen out of nowhere.

Dota 2 is not for everyone. But if you like a challenge and you like winning for something you've put in the extra effort for, it's for you.

Here's the thing about why it's a great game. It has survived many years against similar and different types of games. Whatever work you put in to master it will be relevant for years to come.

The community is awful because the tools haven't been released to sort and tame them. I like how Gabe mentioned that people who abuse text and voice chat will be deprived of it and will have to pay to get it back. Awful people will be matched with awful people.

And before anyone says that being a noob cannot make you an awful person, you can. If you leave and/or if you play a new hero straight into pubs.

My advice to everyone who is new, who wants to play, and does not hate the game YET: Test yourself in bot matches and see if you get an acceptable level of XP compared to your allies. If that works out well, you next test yourself in coop bot matches with humans and see if your stats match up if not excel beyond your team mates. Only then should go venture into automatch but only with the hero you're proficient at.

If anyone would want someone to coach them in game, please let me know in in PM.

Last edited by markcocjin: 05-09-2012 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:57 PM   #137
STEELCITY32
 
 
 
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Dota 2 is indeed a harsh mistress. It has one of the steepest learning curves in any game I have ever seen. People will at you, people will call you stupid. However, sticking it out provides you with one of the deepest, most strategic gaming experience that it is possible to have. It really is a great freaking game, with a pretty bad freaking community. I will say that I found it to be better then LoL's.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:42 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by markcocjin View Post
Dota 2 is a lot like...
yeah mr elitist i know you think Dota 2 is right there alongside quantum physics regarding difficulty and only the choosen ones of higher intellect can ever hope to master it and whatever, i heard you the first bazillion times, babbling how a game being completely unpenetrable is a good thing somehow


believe me when i say id rather not, but i promised myself id try it again if they changed the HUD cuz that is what bothered me the most, its doesnt look much better, but hell maybe im wrong, hopefully
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:43 PM   #139
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thats why i only play with friends.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:05 AM   #140
Sly_Squash
 
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Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
keep proving my point about Dota 2 communities
Do you feel I've been mean to you in some way?
What exactly did I say to you that was so abusive? And if so, why didn't you just report it? And if you did, why weren't my posts removed?

I've said nothing to perpetuate the notion that dota 2 communities are so vile. It would appear you are merely overtly thin-skinned.

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Originally Posted by agafaba View Post
I really dont believe that for 99.999% of the people playing MOBAs that every minute of gameplay is filled with tons of complex decision making, or for every minute of gameplay preparation (unless you are talking about the character selection, although it only lasts a minute or two)
Are you kidding me? Dota 2 is extremely challenging and deep, and that complexity stems almost entirely from decision making. The mechanics really aren't that difficult; last-hitting, pull timing, etc. present some challenge but are certainly far from overwhelming. The complexity comes from the decision making that come every juncture. Knowing when to pull. When to push. When to retreat. When to jump on people. When to farm up. When to heal. When to ward. When to dive. When to smoke. When to push tower. When to check rune. When to rosh. When to lane. When to jungle. When to group up. When to spread out.

Notwithstanding the decision making that goes into properly building your character's skill and item builds to best complement the current climate of the game.

This is why dota is a difficult game to learn and even more difficult to teach; because the complexity of the game's dynamics are not reliant on mechanics which can be easily developed and taught with concerted effort but complex decision making processes for which a solid intuition can only be developed over time with considerable experience.

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Originally Posted by agafaba View Post
I am starting to feel like most of us shoudnt be playing MOBAs at all... you make it seem like its practically a career.
Well, it kinda is... there is an already-strong and growing competitive scene of players for which part or even all of their livelihood stems from dota 2 play and others from casting high-level dota 2 play. But that's not to say it's a job and not a game; it's an incredibly satisfying experience for even "regular" gamers like me. It just isn't instant but shallow kind of gratification most games nowadays offer, and you should know this coming into the game.

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Originally Posted by agafaba View Post
Anyway we should just agree to disagree about chess and MOBA.
I was never interested in it in the context of this thread to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
yeah mr elitist i know you think Dota 2 is right there alongside quantum physics regarding difficulty and only the choosen ones of higher intellect can ever hope to master it and whatever, i heard you the first bazillion times, babbling how a game being completely unpenetrable is a good thing somehow
It isn't nearly as inaccessible as you claim; a game ought not be compared to quantom physics merely because one person struggles to obtain some degree of proficiency in one afternoon's worth of play.

And please stop calling everyone "elitist" because they are asserting that Dota 2 provides great satisfaction at the cost of a longer acclimation period. Just because we contend dota 2 is deeper doesn't mean we contend it is better; there is a place for shallow titles among the more casual of gamers, and no one's contending there is anything wrong with that. Additionally, it seems hypocritical of you to claim dota 2 is as complex as quantom physics to learn and then call dota 2 fans "elitist" for contending dota has comparatively deeper but comparatively more deeply-satisfying gameplay.

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Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
believe me when i say id rather not, but i promised myself id try it again if they changed the HUD cuz that is what bothered me the most, its doesnt look much better, but hell maybe im wrong, hopefully
It's considerably more streamlined and informative while taking up less space. If you have suggestions as to how they could do better still, you should be constructive and post them on dev.dota2.com (like beta testers are supposed to do anyway) rather than merely squawk. The development crew are extremely receptive to suggestions there; many of my requested bug fixes and enhancements have been implemented as early as the following patch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markcocjin View Post
I'd like to commend Sly_Squash for really wanting to enjoy the game and succeeding at it. If this was a match at Dota 2, I'd commend you as well.
Cheers, mate.

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Originally Posted by STEELCITY32 View Post
Sticking it out provides you with one of the deepest, most strategic gaming experience that it is possible to have.
Agreed. I've literally jumped out of my chair cheering after a hard-fought but well-deserved victory. I haven't felt like that from playing a game in many, many years, and I have a respectable amount of games.

Last edited by Sly_Squash: 05-10-2012 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:30 AM   #141
NuclearKangaroo
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly_Squash View Post
Do you feel I've been mean to you in some way?
What exactly did I say to you that was so abusive? And if so, why didn't you just report it? And if you did, why weren't my posts removed?

I've said nothing to perpetuate the notion that dota 2 communities are so vile. It would appear you are merely overtly thin-skinned.
let me see, for starters you refuse to even admit this game has problems letting people in, despite being one of the most played games on steam, and being in beta for quite some time, it doesnt have a tutorial, even in the most reasonable points you refuse to admit Dota 2 has serious flaws and instead regard this innaccesivility as a quality

also you make ignorant claims about console games, you are an elitist, the thread i posted in the Dota forums was almost unanimously attacked for comparing the game to LoL and i was also also attacked in game for critizing the screensize, yes i have my reasons to believe most of the Dota 2 community are a bunch of elitists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly_Squash View Post
It isn't nearly as inaccessible as you claim; a game ought not be compared to quantom physics merely because one person struggles to obtain some degree of proficiency in one afternoon's worth of play.

And please stop calling everyone "elitist" because they are asserting that Dota 2 provides great satisfaction at the cost of a longer acclimation period. Just because we contend dota 2 is deeper doesn't mean we contend it is better; there is a place for shallow titles among the more casual of gamers, and no one's contending there is anything wrong with that. Additionally, it seems hypocritical of you to claim dota 2 is as complex as quantom physics to learn and then call dota 2 fans "elitist" for contending dota has comparatively deeper but comparatively more deeply-satisfying gameplay.
now heres 3 words you have to find on the dictionary, hyperbole, hypocritical and humbleness, because you clearly dont know the meaning of any of those

i used a hyperbole, that is my statement should not be taken as a literal example comparing Dota 2 to quantum physics

that is NOT the meaning of hypocritical

the fact you can handle complex games doesnt mean you have to be arrogant, disrecpectful or should look down on other people, as many Dota 2 player do, that is being humble, or more accurately, not-an-

for instance, i can be an ace at CS, but theres no reason i should disrespect people that enjoy COD, i can be a great player in CoH, but i shouldnt insult or act condescending to people who enjoy other RTS


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly_Squash View Post
It's considerably more streamlined and informative while taking up less space. If you have suggestions as to how they could do better still, you should be constructive and post them on dev.dota2.com (like beta testers are supposed to do anyway) rather than merely squawk. The development crew are extremely receptive to suggestions there; many of my requested bug fixes and enhancements have been implemented as early as the following patch.
i did make some suggestions in the Dota 2 forums, which were unsurprisingly met with animosity

so i was like "why even bother", i am thankful with the people that helped me in that thread, but they are unfortunately a minority




EDIT: after reading again i realize i mistook markcocjin for you, i apologize for my behaviour markcocjin, thought you were Sly_Squash, it wasnt my intention to respond in such way to someone that seems to have been trying to help me

Last edited by NuclearKangaroo: 05-10-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:18 PM   #142
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I won an 80 minute match last night and it was so satisfying! We were neck-and-neck right up to the very last minute. You just don't get satisfaction like that from most games. The reverse is also true. I'm sure the losing side was devastated. It's those huge swings of emotion that cause people to flip out.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:48 PM   #143
Sly_Squash
 
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Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
let me see, for starters you refuse to even admit this game has problems letting people in
No, I didn't. I said the opposite; that it was deep game with a longer acclimation period than most. Not only is that not abusive but it's incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
despite being one of the most played games on steam, and being in beta for quite some time, it doesnt have a tutorial
There's a tutorial button in the interface, the game is currently in closed beta, and the beta key request page (last I checked) makes it quite clear they are looking for players with strong dota experience to test their game.
Combine those points, and it's clear the tutorial is not the first thing that need be worked on. It'll be ready by release, and that's what's important.
Also, explain again how polite disagreement regarding the relative necessity for a tutorial at this phase of development can be interpreted as abuse, because I'm really quite curious how it could even be misconstrued as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
Even in the most reasonable points you refuse to admit Dota 2 has serious flaws and instead regard this innaccesivility as a quality
No, I didn't. I'll happily agree that having any kind of learning curve at all renders a game rather unapproachable by most gamers nowadays, as there is a tendency in the current generation to dismiss games that don't emit instant gratification.
Therefore, having any kind of learning curve at all can be considered a flaw in catering to the current gaming clientele.
And, once again, that's not abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
also you make ignorant claims about console games
I think most modern PC gamers would disagree, but like I said, I don't believe in derailing threads with such tangential discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
you are an elitist
No, I am not, and I already stated why in my previous reply so I won't repeat it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
the thread i posted in the Dota forums was almost unanimously attacked for comparing the game to LoL and i was also also attacked in game for critizing the screensize, yes i have my reasons to believe most of the Dota 2 community are a bunch of elitists
In other words, a couple of players didn't like your idea and you can't handle it. Considering you believe I "abused" you by stating my disagreement that a tutorial is strictly necessary at the beta phase, I can only imagine what your thread was like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
now heres 3 words you have to find on the dictionary, hyperbole, hypocritical and humbleness, because you clearly dont know the meaning of any of those
So... I'm abusive for disagreeing with you that a beta absolutely needs a tutorial, but these kinds of snarky personal attacks are fair game?
Interesting... *notes more hypocrisy and moves along*

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Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
i used a hyperbole, that is my statement should not be taken as a literal example comparing Dota 2 to quantum physics
In other words, people won't pay attention to what I say unless I exaggerate.

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Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
that is NOT the meaning of hypocritical
You're hypocritical. Whether it's as difficult as quantum physics or not, you're clearly yielding that dota 2 is a deep game (if it was shallow, it would be inherently easy for you to learn). Yet when Dota fans contend their game is deep, you label them elitists. This is hypocrisy; you can't have your cake and eat it to. Either yield that it is a deep game and that those "elitists" have a right to proclaim their game is deeper than most offerings, or contend that they are elitists and explain why you are having so much trouble grasping such a purportedly simple game.

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Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
the fact you can handle complex games doesnt mean you have to be arrogant, disrecpectful or should look down on other people, as many Dota 2 player do, that is being humble, or more accurately, not-an-♥♥♥
No, but arrogant and disrespectful behavior is by no means exclusive to deep games. How many times have you been T-bagged by a better player in CoD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
for instance, i can be an ace at CS, but theres no reason i should disrespect people that enjoy COD, i can be a great player in CoH, but i shouldnt insult or act condescending to people who enjoy other RTS
You shouldn't in any game. But in dota 2, you are rewarded for good behavior and punished for bad behavior, offering further incentives to deter such griefing when compared to other games.

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Originally Posted by NuclearKangaroo View Post
i did make some suggestions in the Dota 2 forums, which were unsurprisingly met with animosity
I'd like to see this "animosity".

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Originally Posted by AsheMan View Post
I won an 80 minute match last night and it was so satisfying!
Congrats, mate! Makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?

Last edited by Sly_Squash: 05-10-2012 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:03 PM   #144
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Yeah, I usually stay away from those games to begin with because of angry elitists. Ironically, you would think FPS's have more angry people because of the aggressiveness and atmosphere of a shooter, but nothing worse than Dota/Hon/LoL or any MMO for that matter. It's funny.

Even the CS community isn't filled with that much rage than what I saw from Dota.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:56 AM   #145
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Yeah, I usually stay away from those games to begin with because of angry elitists. Ironically, you would think FPS's have more angry people because of the aggressiveness and atmosphere of a shooter, but nothing worse than Dota/Hon/LoL or any MMO for that matter. It's funny.

Even the CS community isn't filled with that much rage than what I saw from Dota.
Good point, and one that I've considered before.

It's certainly a good one to throw at the "violent video games breed violent people" brigade.

I've been pretty lucky in that I haven't had that bad a time on online shooters, although I don't play them that much. But DOTA 2 and similar games I've found to be quite horrible and unenjoyable because of this element.

It's all very well some people saying "play with friends" or something similar, but that's useless when you have no peers to play with or just don't wish to.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:25 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by aplayer View Post
Yeah, I usually stay away from those games to begin with because of angry elitists. Ironically, you would think FPS's have more angry people because of the aggressiveness and atmosphere of a shooter, but nothing worse than Dota/Hon/LoL or any MMO for that matter. It's funny.

Even the CS community isn't filled with that much rage than what I saw from Dota.
And i left the CS community due to the rage (loong time ago, to be fair, someday i'll give them another try)
But i agree, I find the FPS community more welcoming than MMO/RTS and such. I've made a home on TF2 due to the people i've met there (And many times is more important to just play the bunch together than the actual match result)
That made me wonder if it's a inherent problem of the game genre in itself.
In FPS, whether your team wins or loses, you can always see your personal performance (We lost, but i've gotten a better K/D ratio lately, or achieved more objectives than last week) On other genres, your personal evolution is more tied to other players performance, making see your own evolution (or even evolving itself) more tied to how other people play.

So in short, in a FPS i can be on a team 'of suckers' but still see that i'm performing good. On DOTA i can try to perform good, but i won't notice my effort (i'll lose and get my handed to me) because my teammate is a newbie that doesn't know right from left.
The later can be very much infuriating than the first.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:04 PM   #147
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Man up and grow thicker skin and none of those things will bother you. After you're good enough and you get those type of people who rage then you just ignore them and play on.

A huge misconception is that LoL is easier on newbs - this is in fact not true at all. If you think racism and insults are rampant on Dota 1/2/HoN then I'd say avoid LoL. It has that tribunal thing but remember that's a free game and people can just create a new account and keep insulting people. I played quite a lot of LoL games and I saw people say things that you rarely see in the other games.

As for bots, I personally don't think they teach you that well. For you to really learn you NEED to experience, you NEED to see what team coordination and play styles are from BOTH sides not just yours. You mostly learn from seeing what your enemy does, what strategies they follow, what items they purchase, the way they use their skills, etc. YOU LEARN MORE FROM WATCHING YOUR ENEMY THAN YOUR TEAM. Your attention most of the time lies on what your enemy is doing and not what your team is doing so playing against bots will only hurt your learning. Those are things that bots don't do as well as a human player would. You basically need to learn from hard knocks otherwise it's gonna take you forever to get accustomed to what playing with human beings is. This is no single player or co-op game, this is an online game where your human team faces another human team. There's many scenarios in which a human does something a bot would never do and those scenarios are ones that could be game changing and by playing with bots you completely miss out on that experience.

Are you a new player and want my advice? STAY AWAY FROM BOTS! You will not truly learn as fast or as efficient as you would playing with humans. Play with bots or practice mode (what it's called in HoN) only to BRIEFLY learn hero mechanics and basics like skill ranges and combos.

THE MOST important thing for a new player for these games is to know cookie-cutter (optimal/best) item builds and skill builds. Quickly give glances to guides and copy those builds and use them because the difference between you doing horrible and you doing somewhat decent lies in what your skill and item order has been. These games have built-in item and or hero skill guides but they're not as good as one's you could obtain from the outside. You will learn at a pace so fast by knowing this information than if you were to bot.

If you get people insulting at you then just add to them your ignore list and play on. Simple as that. When someone is "raging" at you that person is not coordinating with you and when you ignore someone you two don't coordinate anyway so there's no disadvantage to ignoring someone who is nonstop insulting you.

Last edited by Atrim3ntus: 05-11-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:11 PM   #148
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What is it with these DOTA 2 players and their walls of text. They drone on and on like a Koresh sermon.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:17 PM   #149
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What is it with these DOTA 2 players and their walls of text. They drone on and on like a Koresh sermon.
They're just into the game, I guess.

Personally, I'd rather see attitudes like that (sharing knowledge) rather than the horrible displays evinced by some.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:25 PM   #150
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What is it with these DOTA 2 players and their walls of text. They drone on and on like a Koresh sermon.
The Action RTS genre have very passionate players who are very invested in their title of choice. It is not like in FPS games where any the skill generally translates well to the other games.

In ARTS games, people play a certain way in LoL for example. So much so that they develop certain assumptions and habits that does not work in another title like Dota 2.

There's often a wall of text in these arguments because of the complexity of the games and how you'll be able to know these nuances as you get better at it.
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