I've been wondering, why TFC and not TF2?

[OscarIsNeLul]

Originally Posted by Jifcuits

I don't have any demos of me demo jumping as I'm distinctly average. However, to try and show you the versatility and difficulty of demo jumping I present this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P_AfXkslXs

Stickies are kind of like little concs except you have to release them and then wait extra time for them to arm which makes keeping momentum much more difficult that in conc jumping. The extra versatility comes in being able to detonate when you want (after arm time) and the fact they stick to surfaces.

My point was that you seem to think concjumping is alot easier, so by that logic you guys should have no problem landing b*tchjump with concs

And for those of you who dont know, this is the infamous b*tchjump: http://youtu.be/vJBhfq2jhn4
If i remember correctly, it has been done with pipes, done with rockets just once, and never been done with concs.




Excuse me mods for bypassing the swear filter, but the map is actually called b*tchconc so its not my fault

[Powerlord]

Originally Posted by OscarIsNeLul

Change is only good when it actually improves the game. Updates that fix bugs are necessary, adding new weapons almost every week is just annoying. How can you ever master the game if they keep changing the rules every few days?

It took valve more than 10 years to make the game, why didnt they just add all this stuff before it got released? The game would be balanced from day 1 already and nobody would complain about overpowered and/or broken weapons. Now they are just ruining the game by changing stuff that nobody wants changed in the first place.

Valve didn't like the game balance when it first came out. The reason they started adding items to the game in the first place is that they felt Medic was an underplayed class, then Pyro was an underplayed class, and then Heavy was an underplayed class, after which they said "we'll just create updates for all 9 classes" and continued to add new items to the game since. Most (but not all) items added since 2009 had their models and textures designed by the community.... but Valve still comes up with the attributes for them.

Originally Posted by urban360

Lets not forget respawn delays. By default TF2 servers have some ridiculous respawn delays after you die ranging anywhere from 8 seconds to 30 seconds and sometimes more. TF2 requires a patient and laid back mind set. A lot can happen in just a few seconds. I know it depends on which server you go to but the amount servers with respawn delays disabled is very small compared to the # of servers with respawn delays enabled. Most servers with respawn delays disabled are dedicated to 1 kind of map 24/7. Respawn delays also makes it nearly impossible for your team to recover on cp maps when an uberchanged heavy bulldozes half your team or even your whole team if theres a chain of ubercharged HWs one after the other allowing attacking team a free capture with little to no counter attack from the defensive team. For those who don't know what ubercharge pretty much is, its temporary god mode with dealing extra damage.

TFC by default has no respawn delays for dying accept if your death was a suicide but even that is only 5 seconds and only increases slightly if you are constantly causing your own deaths. But if a server has respawn delays set for normal deaths, its a fixed time and doesnt not vary.

It's another of those pesky balancing mechanics. I've gathered that TF2 puts a lot more emphasis on control points than TFC does... CTF maps are literally the only game mode that doesn't involve control points in TF2. The last control point on most game modes (except Arena and KOTH) and at least one chokepoint on CTF maps are near the team's spawn. Instant respawn means the defending team has a major advantage due to their proximity.

Incidentally, this also encourages Engineers to build teleporters, which (at level 3) recharge every 2 seconds. Incidentally, the recharge time of teleporters when TF2 came out was 8 seconds; level 2 and 3 teleporters (and health/ammo dispenser) were added to the game a few years after launch... at the same time Spies gained the ability to grab ammo boxes to restore health and electro-sappers were placed on both ends of a teleporter when a Spy places one on either end.

Originally Posted by OscarIsNeLul

Also, the butt shaking thingy in the intro is just ridiculous, wtf is that

I didn't see what you meant, but I assume you mean one of the Demoman's taunts.

Speaking of Rocket and Sticky jumping... two of the items added a while back were damage-less versions of the Stickybomb Launcher and Rocket Launcher. The ridiculous jump chains you're seeing wouldn't be possible without them since the self damage from 3 stickies or 3 rockets is enough to kill you.

Unfortunately, they also deal 0 damage to the enemies, but they can be used to get your other weapons in range (grenade launcher/shotgun or melee).

[urban360]

It's another of those pesky balancing mechanics. I've gathered that TF2 puts a lot more emphasis on control points than TFC does... CTF maps are literally the only game mode that doesn't involve control points in TF2. The last control point on most game modes (except Arena and KOTH) and at least one chokepoint on CTF maps are near the team's spawn. Instant respawn means the defending team has a major advantage due to their proximity.

Thats map design flaw problem. Adding respawn delays is the least sensible way to fix that. Proper fix would be to not place control points where they hug the respawn areas and/or add more access routs for attackers. What valve did is just an itchy band aid that only covers up the problem instead of fixing it at the cause.

Incidentally, this also encourages Engineers to build teleporters, which (at level 3) recharge every 2 seconds. Incidentally, the recharge time of teleporters when TF2 came out was 8 seconds; level 2 and 3 teleporters (and health/ammo dispenser) were added to the game a few years after launch... at the same time Spies gained the ability to grab ammo boxes to restore health and electro-sappers were placed on both ends of a teleporter when a Spy places one on either end.

I don't get what that has to do with my post.

[OscarIsNeLul]

Originally Posted by Powerlord

Valve didn't like the game balance when it first came out. The reason they started adding items to the game in the first place is that they felt Medic was an underplayed class, then Pyro was an underplayed class, and then Heavy was an underplayed class, after which they said "we'll just create updates for all 9 classes" and continued to add new items to the game since. Most (but not all) items added since 2009 had their models and textures designed by the community.... but Valve still comes up with the attributes for them.

They spend 10 years making the game, you would think they actually tested it at some point and notice the balance wasn't perefect, right? It doesn't look very professional if they need another 10 year making updates before the game is finally done.

And ofcourse medic was underplayed, all he could do was chase other players to heal them... This proves again that valve has no idea what TF is really about.




In a way i always disliked valve for neglecting TFC, but now i'm actually happy about that. Imagine how the game would look if it got the same treatment as tf2.
And its not like they didn't try, the few updates they made are disliked by everyone, such as the crappy new player models or the utterly usless Ravelin map. So i guess we should thank valve for ignoring us, it only made the game better

Originally Posted by Powerlord

I didn't see what you meant, but I assume you mean one of the Demoman's taunts.

No i mean the butt shaking, at 0:14. It looks like his pelvis is connected to the upper body with bungee cords or something

[Donatti]

Originally Posted by OscarIsNeLul

My point was that you seem to think concjumping is alot easier, so by that logic you guys should have no problem landing b*tchjump with concs

And for those of you who dont know, this is the infamous b*tchjump: http://youtu.be/vJBhfq2jhn4
If i remember correctly, it has been done with pipes, done with rockets just once, and never been done with concs.




Excuse me mods for bypassing the swear filter, but the map is actually called b*tchconc so its not my fault

It has been done with concs, I have done it recently (2012).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZxG3sLMhnM

It's near the end of the video.


Also, to that guy who says TF2's sticky jumping is harder than concing, I laugh at you and your easy game for kids which requires no skill at all. I bet I could install tf2 and do that "hardest demoman map" (LOL) in 1 day.

[urban360]

Originally Posted by Donatti

It has been done with concs, I have done it recently (2012).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZxG3sLMhnM

It's near the end of the video.


Also, to that guy who says TF2's sticky jumping is harder than concing, I laugh at you and your easy game for kids which requires no skill at all. I bet I could install tf2 and do that "hardest demoman map" (LOL) in 1 day.

Do it. Your claim would hold up better walking the walk instead of just talking the talk. Make sure you get it on video to make your point rock solid.

[OscarIsNeLul]

Originally Posted by urban360

Do it. Your claim would hold up better walking the walk instead of just talking the talk. Make sure you get it on video to make your point rock solid.

I don't think we need a video to prove that, it's pretty obvious

Apparently the hardest demo map is just a big drop, and it takes 10 minutes to juggle down... In TFC we would do that with just 1 pipe

[Code Lime Alpha]

Originally Posted by Donatti

Also, to that guy who says TF2's sticky jumping is harder than concing, I laugh at you and your easy game for kids which requires no skill at all. I bet I could install tf2 and do that "hardest demoman map" (LOL) in 1 day.

Yeah, sure it is.

[Donatti]

Originally Posted by Code Lime Alpha

Yeah, sure it is.

Ask any TFC player who has also played TF2. A 90% of them will agree with me.

[urban360]

Originally Posted by OscarIsNeLul

I don't think we need a video to prove that, it's pretty obvious

Apparently the hardest demo map is just a big drop, and it takes 10 minutes to juggle down... In TFC we would do that with just 1 pipe

Pretty obvious to who? If you can do it with less pipes in TFC that means its easier. Your logic is completely backwards. Difficulty comes from less powerful weapons. Now, I'm not trying to take sides but words by them selves doesn't prove a thing. Videos do.

@Donatti and Code Lime Alpha.

# of people backing you up is irrelevant. Possibly just as many TFC players who disagree you. Play both games and make an unbiased side by side video comparing the 2 for everyone to see for them selves. You would have less luck settling an argument by just going back and forth with opinions.

[OscarIsNeLul]

Originally Posted by urban360

Pretty obvious to who? If you can do it with less pipes in TFC that means its easier. Your logic is completely backwards. Difficulty comes from less powerful weapons. Now, I'm not trying to take sides but words by them selves doesn't prove a thing. Videos do.

Some "easy" 1 pipe jumps:
http://youtu.be/GN1zYv48Dr8
Apparently the sticky thingy is supposed to be alot harder than this, or the b*tchjump video Spaz posted...



My biggest problem with all the tf2 videos is, they seem to invent tricks just for the sake of inventing them. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
You don't see TFC videos of some random napalm jump, or a medic getting pushed by a SG. Because those are not real tricks, it happens every day. But in tf2, anything that can propel you in a straight line gets recorded as if they just did the most awesome move ever.


Truth is, the Source engine isn't made to do tricks in the first place, and the few glitches that do work are not that impressive. Im not saying TFC is the hardest game ever though, there are alot of other games that take even more skill to master. But tf2 isn't one of them.

[pizzahut]

Originally Posted by OscarIsNeLul

Some "easy" 1 pipe jumps:
http://youtu.be/GN1zYv48Dr8

Here's a higher quality version for download (slow): http://ozfortress.com/media/videos/T...ad.php?t=23259

[Dr Manhattan]

Yeah this topic has obviously been done A LOT and the focus of the thread has shifted somewhat.

To explain why I still prefer TFC to TF2 (and I've played that a fair bit with some of the best too) is that (again not baiting) it is just too easy. Yes there are people a lot better than me at TF2 but they will prolly have 3/4/5k hours of gameplay. The techniques, variety and therefore skill ceiling simply isn't as high as TFC. It's a different era of gaming. It's not looking down at TF2 but it IS simpler. People that were decent at best at TFC are top of the top in source games because the movement is that much slower.

The balancing in TFC wasn't perfect but nothing can be and it isn't perfect in TF2 but I would say it's probably slightly more balanced in TF2 (although the medic role makes me cry). TF2 is much more team based, two top players with a poo team aren't going to beat an overall good team in TF2, in TFC, they could.

RE: bhopping etc - this is not about balance because every class can do it and although it was not a deliberate addition and was changed several times in TFC history it's yet another technique to learn and then do (eventually very naturally) along with everything else - aiming, concing, ramp sliding, concaim. I'm not aware of a technique in TF2 that cannot be replicated in TFC yet there are a lot of things in TFC that you can't do in TF2.

Personally, although it doesn't happen often, I like to be able to destroy a whole bloody team with a good run or good bit of defense and win a round for the team on my own. In TF2 it's just really not going to happen (random pubs excluded). It's this, the skill ceiling and speed. 90s speed gaming Vs late 00s mass-market gaming. Not a judgement but a reality I think.

Love l4d though

Wu

Gotta post this vid to every TFC Vs other game thread: If you don't know by now....you never will

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddHNmMbA_C8

[Danefrak]

I would say... to just see the differences and the impact that has been made. Oh! And it has TEAMwork... That too

[orangensaft]

Yeah, Danefrak is right.. At least TFC has teamwork.
Long live TFC!