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Old 07-26-2012, 05:25 PM   #16
Zorlac
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryp View Post
It's not "nonsense" to be personally opposed to DRM, get a clue and realize that many people actually care about DRM infesting their games. This kind of attitude is just unnecessary and rude.
I wasn't being rude, or unnecessary. I also wasn't referring to his opinion on DRM. I was and plainly stated that I was referring to him saying the game doesn't work due to the DRM which is simply not true. It works perfectly fine for MOST people, and for the ones it doesn't work for, the DRM is mostly likely not the cause. (I'm not saying for sure not the cause because I don't know, but it is most likely not the cause).
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:45 PM   #17
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I thought Bioshock 2 had GWFL offline mode?
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:54 PM   #18
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To activate the DLC for Bioshock, SecuROM is used. I don't know about the GOTY edition.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:09 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Tryp View Post
That would be the DRM, yes. Not only is Bioshock 2 saddled with Securom, it also has the ultra annoying Games For Windows Live requirement just to save your progress in the game you paid for. I refuse to throw money at this kind of nonsense.
You know that you can make an offline account and you can use it without having to connect to the net?
It allows you to save when you want and how you want. Windows Live games are not the worst out there. Ubisoft, now there's an ocmpany (just stating 1 don't want to get into a long tirade.)
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:28 PM   #20
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I don't know about SecuROM, but the Steam version of BioShock definitely still has Steam DRM (which I'd argue is far worse than SecuROM). I just tested it, attempting to run it without Steam results in a "Steam Error", specifically "Application load error (0x02)". Reading this topic got my hopes up, too.

I do not have the GamersGate version, but it is still labeled as SecuROM. Amazon specifically provides both SecuROM DRM and Steam + SecuROM DRM (eww... why?!) versions. Unless there is a patch that needs to be applied, I would have to assume that BioShock is not at all DRM-free.

As for BioShock 2, that one has SecuROM and GFWL, and I'd imagine at least one of those is still true. If you get it from Steam, I'm almost positive you'll get saddled with Steam DRM as well. GOG can't rescue these games soon enough. :/

Last edited by Hectan: 07-26-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:15 PM   #21
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LOL... That's rich. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that Steam DRM is worse than SecuROM. SecuROM is one of the absolute worst DRM systems around now, only beat by TAGES.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:28 PM   #22
Hectan
 
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LOL... That's rich. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that Steam DRM is worse than SecuROM. SecuROM is one of the absolute worst DRM systems around now, only beat by TAGES.
That's because you spend most of your time on the Steam forums, I'm sure. You don't realize just how bad you guys have it here.

What about Starforce? That one's pretty awful, too. Not as bad as Steam, mind you, but I tend to have more trouble with games that utilize Starforce than SecuROM or TAGES. GFWL is worse than Starforce, SecuROM, and TAGES combined, but it still has nothing on Steam.

If not for the fact that Steam DRM restricts you way more than nearly all alternative forms of DRM, along with providing an additional layer of DRM for games that already have DRM, it's also the most contagious. Just a few years ago, I could count on both hands how many games have Steam achievements, and now it's becoming distressingly common for retail/non-Steam distributors to sell games that require Steam thanks to the blight of Steamworks.

You've been on this forum for four years without being banned, which means you probably don't question things much. Can we at least agree that DRM-free is better than Steam DRM, because if we can't, I don't see any point in conversing with you any further.

Last edited by Hectan: 07-26-2012 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 01:42 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Hectan View Post
That's because you spend most of your time on the Steam forums, I'm sure. You don't realize just how bad you guys have it here.

What about Starforce? That one's pretty awful, too. Not as bad as Steam, mind you, but I tend to have more trouble with games that utilize Starforce than SecuROM or TAGES. GFWL is worse than Starforce, SecuROM, and TAGES combined, but it still has nothing on Steam.

If not for the fact that Steam DRM restricts you way more than nearly all alternative forms of DRM, along with providing an additional layer of DRM for games that already have DRM, it's also the most contagious. Just a few years ago, I could count on both hands how many games have Steam achievements, and now it's becoming distressingly common for retail/non-Steam distributors to sell games that require Steam thanks to the blight of Steamworks.

You've been on this forum for four years without being banned, which means you probably don't question things much. Can we at least agree that DRM-free is better than Steam DRM, because if we can't, I don't see any point in conversing with you any further.
Utter nonsense.

Steamworks is an API designed to allow developers to streamline components of their games which a unified code that works across all platforms allowing users to communicate and play with each other with ease.

This was also what GFWL was supposed to be. Problem is GFWL is plagued by issues, the original GFWL platform was so badly coded that any game cd key would work for any game and with multiple uses, as well as that it has isues with connectivity to servers, losing save games, no save game syncing and really heavy profile encryption to the point where a save game cannot be copied off a profile then reapplied back into the same profile after a reinstall.

Steamworks on the other hand does everything perfectly, multiplayer games can easily connect to each other with no need to port forward and across multiple platforms (lets see GFWL ever appearing on Mac OS or Linux), saves are synced with steam cloud so they can be transferred to other machines, achievements are handled properly with no need to be online and connected to a master server for them to be applied and the DRM in non intrusive and has no activation/different machine limits.

Steamworks is exactly what gaming on personal computers needed, a unified, cross platform, non intrusive way of allowing users to play together with ease.

I challenge you to find a single case where somebody using a steamworks title has not been able to play their game. Do the same with GFWL and you'll find 100s of 1000s of cases.

Starforce got sued by some American users who claimed that SF3 damaged their physical hardware (the case was later dropped cause of lack of evidence). Securom is the most common and the most problematic of the current DRM systems but like everything you encounter in life, if there are more people using it there will be more people with problems, you have to take the proportion of usage into account, TAGES i haven't encountered for a while now, not sure if its even still used anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectan View Post
If not for the fact that Steam DRM restricts you way more than nearly all alternative forms of DRM
Please don't just spout this nonsense out without offering any proof to back your claims up. How does Steam restrict you?

Last edited by hahahehe: 07-27-2012 at 01:57 AM. Reason: Mistakenly put SF4 instead of SF3
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:23 AM   #24
Hectan
 
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Originally Posted by hahahehe View Post
Utter nonsense.

Steamworks is an API designed to allow developers to streamline components of their games which a unified code that works across all platforms allowing users to communicate and play with each other with ease.

This was also what GFWL was supposed to be. Problem is GFWL is plagued by issues, the original GFWL platform was so badly coded that any game cd key would work for any game and with multiple uses, as well as that it has isues with connectivity to servers, losing save games, no save game syncing and really heavy profile encryption to the point where a save game cannot be copied off a profile then reapplied back into the same profile after a reinstall.

Steamworks on the other hand does everything perfectly, multiplayer games can easily connect to each other with no need to port forward and across multiple platforms (lets see GFWL ever appearing on Mac OS or Linux), saves are synced with steam cloud so they can be transferred to other machines, achievements are handled properly with no need to be online and connected to a master server for them to be applied and the DRM in non intrusive and has no activation/different machine limits.

Steamworks is exactly what gaming on personal computers needed, a unified, cross platform, non intrusive way of allowing users to play together with ease.

I challenge you to find a single case where somebody using a steamworks title has not been able to play their game. Do the same with GFWL and you'll find 100s of 1000s of cases.

Starforce got sued by some American users who claimed that SF3 damaged their physical hardware (the case was later dropped cause of lack of evidence). Securom is the most common and the most problematic of the current DRM systems but like everything you encounter in life, if there are more people using it there will be more people with problems, you have to take the proportion of usage into account, TAGES i haven't encountered for a while now, not sure if its even still used anymore?



Please don't just spout this nonsense out without offering any proof to back your claims up. How does Steam restrict you?
Holy crap, dude!

Yeah, see this, Brizz? This is what happens when you condemn reason and facts. This ing forum is FULL of proof. Several internet forums are. People complain ALL THE TIME, for years now, about games giving them "Steam not found" errors, servers being taxed, the client being being buggy, unexpectedly losing internet access thus being unable to go into offline mode, and so forth. This sort of stuff is all over the forums. How can you seriously not see that?

Compare "Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines" on Steam and DotEmu. One forces you to run it through the Steam client and deal with Steam's offline mode if you want to play without an internet connection, the other has no DRM nonsense whatsoever. I believe that would be defined as a restriction, and one that is imposed by Steam.

Christ, I don't know what I'm arguing with you for. You are a nutjob far beyond the grasp of reason. I doubt even an admission that Steam is a form of DRM (which in itself by definition provides restrictions) from Gabe Newell himself would dissuade you from what you've led yourself to believe.

The nonsense you spew is poison, and you are clearly not sane. Turning PC gaming into a "unified platform" like Xbox Live and PlayStation Network is the exact opposite of what PC gaming needed. Don't expect me to respond to you in the future. Something is wrong with you.
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:51 AM   #25
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And your confusing Steam and Steamworks. These are two entirely separate entities.

Steam not found - This isn't a DRM issue but an issue regarding the steam.dll file becoming corrupted or missing. This is not the fault of Steam but rather the users system and is beyond valves control.

Servers being taxed - what does that mean exactly?

Offline mode issues - i'm sorry but it is Valves fault your internet has died? Valve make it quite clear that you have to sign in and authenticate before you can access offline mode, the steam support site mentions this fact multiple times on multiple pages.

If you buy a game from Steam then you would expect to need the steam client open to run the game, no one is forcing you to buy from Steam. I never said Steam isn't a DRM system, infact if you read again you'll see i only mention Steamworks. Me thinks you need to go investigate the difference between Steamworks and the Steam Client.

How is trying to standardise multiplayer features across different platforms a bad thing? Valve are trying to ensure that Windows, Mac and eventually Linux users can all access the same games, the same features and play with each other. If you think thats bad then your obviously not the brightest sparkplug in the engine. Valve has no intention of creating a closed network, the fact that Steamworks is open and available for anyone (including indy developers) to use is proof of that. Please don't put words into my mputh.

Your misinformed and wrong. Everything i posted about GFWL and Steamworks was fact, everything you posted was personal opinion (except for the two line paragraph about Vampire) and i'm the one spewing poison.

==EDIT==

Also i asked you to provide some proof of how steam restricts you more than other forms of DRM. You seem to have overlooked this entirely. Coincidence?

Last edited by hahahehe: 07-27-2012 at 02:54 AM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:32 AM   #26
Hectan
 
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Originally Posted by hahahehe View Post
Also i asked you to provide some proof of how steam restricts you more than other forms of DRM. You seem to have overlooked this entirely. Coincidence?
If by entirely, you mean "not at all", then yes, I did. Paragraph three in it's entirety was the proof you are deliberately choosing to ignore. Perhaps you're trying to split hairs, as the example I gave was of a game that is DRM-free elsewhere but restricted with DRM on Steam.

Alright then, fine. I'll play your ridiculous game, one more time, just to prove my point. Then I'm done with you. Forever. If you are so devoid of reason that even this response cannot enlighten you, then that should be enough to shed any doubt for future readers of this topic that your words are not fit to be read.

An example of a game that is restricted by DRM elsewhere that is less restrictive than Steam would be, appropriately enough, BioShock. The SecuROM version, provided by GamersGate and Amazon, requires a key to be activated online before launching the game for the first time. This process requires about ten seconds of time connected to the internet, period.

You won't need to be connected to the internet at any point in the future on that computer to play BioShock. In fact, SecuROM games typically save this information in the registry, so activations may not be necessary in the future even if you uninstall and reinstall the game.

The Steam version, however, includes the same properties of the SecuROM version, as it also utilizes SecuROM. In addition, it also requires the Steam client to be actively running, logged in through an account of a user that owns BioShock. Internet access is required to log in through the Steam client, and is usually required to enter offline mode. Offline mode is also known to not save necessary credentials when expected or otherwise force the user to gain internet access before regaining access to offline mode. Having an active internet connection and the Steam client are integral parts of the SecuROM + Steam version of the game at all stages, including long after post-installation.

This is a restriction completely absent from the SecuROM version of the game. As you asked, this is your "proof of how steam restricts you more than other forms of DRM". I already gave you your proof before, but now I have answered your question exactly as you have asked it. Perhaps you would like to misconstrue it further. After all, I only provided "facts", not "proof". Would you like me to gift you the SecuROM and Steam + SecuROM versions of BioShock? I expect the only way anybody would have a chance to "prove" anything to you would be to force you to prove it to yourself.


There. I'm done with you. For real this time. I can't be bothered to answer any of your remaining questions, and you're going to just have to live with that. You wouldn't like my answers anyway, and you are not at all worth the effort required to seek out specific examples of people with the issues you have dismissed and have them speak with you personally. There is no further point in deigning to acknowledge your presence. I clearly know exactly what I'm talking about here, so clearly you do not. I only pray that, in light of what has been said in this topic, readers use good judgment in determining which of us has in fact been speaking sense here. Arrivederci.
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