Go Back   Steam Users' Forums > Steam Discussions > Suggestions / Ideas

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-23-2012, 04:20 PM   #16
lazy6pyro
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Reputation: 1001
Posts: 1,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpojujitsu3 View Post
This link might be relevant to the discussion.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...wnloaded-games
There's a big, huge thread in the General Discussion that goes into the nitty gritty, but here's generally the summation of that thread in regards to the ruling and Steam.
  • Could very well be used as precedent and extended to games but currently is not; would most likely need specific litigation on DD gaming for any actions to take place
  • Any actions will happen later than sooner
  • It would affect publishers, so Valve may only be on the hook for their own games
  • Publishers might want Steam to followthrough with such features, so they could comply, which would be a Steam vs. Publisher issue and not involving the EU at all

However, what is interesting is scenarios on the local trading economy in addition to the whole DD game service economy. Really, there are 3 options Valve with Publishers can institute for some/all of the Steam catalog.
  • A trade-in system similar to GMG
  • A Valve/Publisher price-controlled used market with adequate price floors
  • Open trading with no restrictions

An open trading system is going to be the system with the most drastic effects. When other second-hand markets used item condition, seller reliability, current availability and other factors to determine price and/or separate sellers; a used digital game service will really only have one criteria...price. This will likely cause a race to the bottom for used copies (as the buyers will have 100% leverage here). This could very well mean that games that have rocky releases could have their used value drop by 70,80,90% due to a flood of sellers looking to out-lower each other inorder to get a sale. That price won't raise back up due to the nature of it being a total buyer's market; Steam users are generally able to wait years to snag games for very, very cheap. This could also result in reduced feedback or venting on the forums as people are (hopefully) not going to say, "I wouldn't pay $5 for this $60 game", and then try to sell it for $45; anyone who is vocal about 'hating' a game is going to shoot themselves in the foot when they attempt to sell it to other players. This system could effectively and punitively punish first-time buyers (though, there might be incentives through account-based DLC to encourage 'new' buyers). This method will probably also be the most disruptive to the amount and likelihood of sales/daly deals/weekend deals.

A Valve/Publisher controlled system is going to establish some price floors (while assuming they're taking a cut), and this will allow a static price that can fluctuate will sales, or at the will of the publisher. This could mean that people may not be getting as much as with a non-pirce floor system, but it can be much less damaging to the first-in-liners.

A trade in system would be much like GMG. Of course, it would be ultimately up to the publishers to participate, but it would probably be the most favorable to them/Valve. Basically, it makes Valve/Publishers the only trading partner with some credit back that can be used to buy 'new' titles. There would be no used market, in itself. Due to this control, Publishers can set and fluctuate the price.

Last edited by lazy6pyro: 07-23-2012 at 04:30 PM.
lazy6pyro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2012, 07:16 AM   #17
BoClucky14
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Reputation: 40
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazy6pyro View Post
There's a big, huge thread in the General Discussion that goes into the nitty gritty, but here's generally the summation of that thread in regards to the ruling and Steam.
  • Could very well be used as precedent and extended to games but currently is not; would most likely need specific litigation on DD gaming for any actions to take place
  • Any actions will happen later than sooner
  • It would affect publishers, so Valve may only be on the hook for their own games
  • Publishers might want Steam to followthrough with such features, so they could comply, which would be a Steam vs. Publisher issue and not involving the EU at all

However, what is interesting is scenarios on the local trading economy in addition to the whole DD game service economy. Really, there are 3 options Valve with Publishers can institute for some/all of the Steam catalog.
  • A trade-in system similar to GMG
  • A Valve/Publisher price-controlled used market with adequate price floors
  • Open trading with no restrictions

An open trading system is going to be the system with the most drastic effects. When other second-hand markets used item condition, seller reliability, current availability and other factors to determine price and/or separate sellers; a used digital game service will really only have one criteria...price. This will likely cause a race to the bottom for used copies (as the buyers will have 100% leverage here). This could very well mean that games that have rocky releases could have their used value drop by 70,80,90% due to a flood of sellers looking to out-lower each other inorder to get a sale. That price won't raise back up due to the nature of it being a total buyer's market; Steam users are generally able to wait years to snag games for very, very cheap. This could also result in reduced feedback or venting on the forums as people are (hopefully) not going to say, "I wouldn't pay $5 for this $60 game", and then try to sell it for $45; anyone who is vocal about 'hating' a game is going to shoot themselves in the foot when they attempt to sell it to other players. This system could effectively and punitively punish first-time buyers (though, there might be incentives through account-based DLC to encourage 'new' buyers). This method will probably also be the most disruptive to the amount and likelihood of sales/daly deals/weekend deals.

A Valve/Publisher controlled system is going to establish some price floors (while assuming they're taking a cut), and this will allow a static price that can fluctuate will sales, or at the will of the publisher. This could mean that people may not be getting as much as with a non-pirce floor system, but it can be much less damaging to the first-in-liners.

A trade in system would be much like GMG. Of course, it would be ultimately up to the publishers to participate, but it would probably be the most favorable to them/Valve. Basically, it makes Valve/Publishers the only trading partner with some credit back that can be used to buy 'new' titles. There would be no used market, in itself. Due to this control, Publishers can set and fluctuate the price.
You do forget one thing: Used keys are not in infinite supply, while new keys are. If the "used price" drops down to $3.00 for a $60 game, then, in all fairness, there will be no more $3 keys left, and if there are keys left, obviously the original seller was way off on the value for their game. The price would then go back up (or become nearly impossible to actually buy one), due to a lack of supply of used keys on the market.

Another way to make keys become artificially deteorating:
- Punkbuster/VAC bans can also be applied to the key indefinitely, and published rather publically. This would cause used keys to naturally deteriate in number.
- Secondly, all support for a game could be for only first-hand buyers, with a second-hand purchase causing support to become void. This would place a higher value on first-hand buyers, especially if the support was tremendously good.

To be honest, I would actually like to see a system where you can easily trade games, heck, with even Steam providing an optional marketplace for a cut.

I would be very interested in seeing how much value a game has by the eye of customers rather than corporations or developors. It would take an artificial price-point and move it closer to the average perceived value of the game.
BoClucky14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:18 AM   #18
2FastToSnipe
 
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Reputation: 0
Posts: 1
Can i trade someone day of defeat or portal 2 for CSS? (We have to be friends) to trade
2FastToSnipe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:20 AM   #19
Captain Morti
 
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Reputation: 457
Posts: 2,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2FastToSnipe View Post
Can i trade someone day of defeat or portal 2 for CSS? (We have to be friends) to trade
Try to find someone in the trading forum. There are more people looking for a trade (You can only trade your game when its a steamgift in your inventory, you cant trade already activated games)
Captain Morti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:34 AM   #20
Sandoooooo
 
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Reputation: 22
Posts: 274
Maybe if the games have 0.0 hours played.
Sandoooooo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:35 AM   #21
Destroyeron
 
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Reputation: 0
Posts: 9
With events like the summer sale why do people care?
Destroyeron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:45 AM   #22
Anarchisteve
 
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Reputation: 3843
Posts: 1,370
I see three big problems with trading used games.

1) Prices will increase - with a lot of people getting used games the developers will make less profit so they will increase their prices to compensate. It could even be so that the extra you are paying is more that what you would get back from trading it, meaning you've paid more than before and don't even have the game anymore.

2) More DRM - This will simplify piracy as all you would need to do is buy game, install, stay offline, trade game away. Even if this doesn't happen the developers/publishers will believe it is and will likely add extra DRM (probably of the always-online variety) to prevent it.

3) More cheating - VAC bans can be attached to one or more of the following: the player, the account or the game. Attaching it to the player can be difficult (if not impossible) and neither of the other two would make sense with tradable games. If the VAC ban is part of the account then the cheater could transfer all their games to a new account. If it is attached to the game then they could just trade that away.

That final point need not be an issue if Valve introduce used game trading under their own steam (pun intended) as they could exclude VAC banned games from the system but if it were forced on Valve under the European law people keep talking about then they are unlikely to take account of things like cheating in MP games.

tl;dr: I think allowing the trading of used games would most likely end badly for us gamers (especially ones like myself who have no interest in trading away their games anyway).
Anarchisteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:45 AM   #23
Captain Morti
 
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Reputation: 457
Posts: 2,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroyeron View Post
With events like the summer sale why do people care?
Probably the question should be, why do people buy games they dont want. (Buying only things you want to play = no need to trade them away)
Captain Morti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 07:11 AM   #24
lazy6pyro
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Reputation: 1001
Posts: 1,374
In most senses, Valve wouldn't NEED a Steam-integrated market-place for used titles to comply with any extension of the EU ruling should it prove to apply to DD games which are tied to accounts.

Oracle doesn't have to provide a market-place, but they can't prevent another company (UsedSoft) from doing so for profit which they were currently and legally doing. This would mean that while Valve or other publishers don't have to have their own market-places, say if GMG wanted one then GMG would have to work with the publishers and Valve to make it happen.

@BoClucky
While there will be some price variation due to supply and demand, I feel like that fluctuation will be very little other than linearly or exponentially lower. Why? The buyer who would be in the used game marketplace is, on the whole, very patient. These are the same people who are willing to wait months for a big Steam-sale, so I don't see demand fluctuating normally. For the seller to have leverage in the used market they need to make the buyer aware of the 'need', and I just don't see what that 'need' would be that wouldn't be covered by buying new in the same venue. This makes me conversely believe that the buyer is going to have most of the leverage in negotiation, which is going to continually drive the price lower.

Personally, I see two types of consumers who frequent Steam: first-in-line-ers and the deal hawks. While there may be a minority that's somewhere inbetween, I feel like the majority of people when it comes to specific games are either at one extreme or another. First-in-line-ers are going to get the game new; the deal-hawks are going to wait it out and swoop in when a deal comes and the expected price becomes less and less over time.

Last edited by lazy6pyro: 08-04-2012 at 07:16 AM.
lazy6pyro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 09:41 AM   #25
Kiyyto
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Reputation: 5
Posts: 46
If you limit yourself to the $5.00 and under sales then you really don't need used games.
If you buy the newest thing on steam for $59.99, well... uhm.

With digital games I don't see the need (as long as the prices remain extremely reasonable).
Kiyyto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 09:43 AM   #26
lillythemoogle
 
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Reputation: 219
Posts: 579
Would be nice to trade games I thought would be good and wasted my money on. Hell, even if it's a small amount of money it's better than nothing.
lillythemoogle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 10:58 AM   #27
dragon95688
 
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Reputation: 4
Posts: 246
I hack your account. I send all your "Used games" to another account. Like your friends. You have no games. Way to go!
dragon95688 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 02:34 PM   #28
gfreeman1
 
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2012
Reputation: 17
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiyyto View Post
If you limit yourself to the $5.00 and under sales then you really don't need used games.
If you buy the newest thing on steam for $59.99, well... uhm.

With digital games I don't see the need (as long as the prices remain extremely reasonable).
For those customers who are willing to play games without full licensing rights, the company should explicitly state the difference between a full retail version and
their version. Truth-in-advertising is required by the Federal Trade Commission as well as various state and local government agencies.

Even paying a nominal fee doesn't excuse the underhanded tactic of misleading the consumer.

It sounds strange, but the way Steam is currently operating, the customer becomes increasingly tethered as his he 'buys' more games. You are picking up a pebble on the side of the road which grows to a boulder as you continue your journey.

Those people who are complaining now are simply more keen to its heaviness.
gfreeman1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 03:11 PM   #29
lazy6pyro
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Reputation: 1001
Posts: 1,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by gfreeman1 View Post
For those customers who are willing to play games without full licensing rights, the company should explicitly state the difference between a full retail version and
their version. Truth-in-advertising is required by the Federal Trade Commission as well as various state and local government agencies.

Even paying a nominal fee doesn't excuse the underhanded tactic of misleading the consumer.

It sounds strange, but the way Steam is currently operating, the customer becomes increasingly tethered as his he 'buys' more games. You are picking up a pebble on the side of the road which grows to a boulder as you continue your journey.

Those people who are complaining now are simply more keen to its heaviness.
Keyword is that they're just complaining...on the Internet. Valve has had an F rating in the BBB for at least 3 years running, yet not a peep out of the FTC, because the reality is that no one gives two packs outside the Internet world and forums.

There will be countless people dropping a rage rant with threats to sue Valve (or insert developer/publisher here), and yet, much like most Internet complaints is just a bunch of hot air and keyboard thrashing. In closing, if you have beef with Valve, the act on it in the real world and not the forums where every poster is a keyboard Denny Crane.

Last edited by lazy6pyro: 08-07-2012 at 03:13 PM.
lazy6pyro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Steam Users' Forums > Steam Discussions > Suggestions / Ideas


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site Content Copyright Valve Corporation 1998-2014, All Rights Reserved.