Steam EULA (7-31-2012) discussion, all other related threads will be locked/merged

[Lekano]

Originally Posted by Lekano

Huh. That's odd.

Just for laughs, I logged into the client just to see if anything had changed, and now all I'm getting is an Agree/Disagree prompt for the Privacy Policy, not the ToS. At the bottom, though, it does say you must agree to the terms of the SSA to continue...though the SSA/ToS isn't linked. Maybe it's in a second screen after this one, but I'm not clicking agree to find out.

You know, now that the ToS isn't even displaying on client start anymore (at least, I haven't heard otherwise...), or linked in the pop up, I wonder if more people will end up hitting Accept (erroneously) thinking the ToS is no longer an issue. An attempt at being sneaky, perhaps?

[Planeforger]

So...when did this thread stop being anti-EULAs and start being anti-DRM?

How did we get from "Steam's new EULA is terrible, customers need more legal rights!" to "Let's find how many Steam games can be activated on other services, and agree to as many other terrible EULAs as we can!"

I'm a little perplexed. I'm also confused why people are still complaining that Valve should release your games from Steam if you reject the EULA - as if "we rescind the contract, so give us a better service than we had ever agreed to!" makes any kind of sense.

A year ago, did anyone honestly think "hey, maybe if we write to Valve rejecting their Terms of Service, they'll give us DRM-free copies of all of our games", or "if Valve stopped forcing people to use their client, maybe they'd make more sales"?

[dxmc]

Thesis -

Steam bad, no sign EULA, no games ( si1viu)

Antithesis-

Steam bad/not bad, no sign EULA, games still run (yousername, Satoru)

Synthesis

A minority of Steam games can be run without the client running, or can be downloaded and played through other services.

Additional relevant information

Games purchased through all other clients except Steam can be played without their respective clients running. Discussion of that issue reveals that some people may have installed Steam thinking it was just like other clients, when it appears to be unique in relation to other game download clients. In fact, it's the Venus Fly-Trap of clients, once you get in you never get out, not with most of your games, anyways. That isn't true of other clients.

So examination and discussion of the EULA (Steam), in light of information provided by members concerning Steamworks and Steam DRM in a broad sense, and in light of an examination of the consequences of rejecting the EULA,such as losing access to games, has led some members to say that they are re-evaluating their relationship with Steam and considering the following reasonable options;

A/ Ditch Steam

1. Lose games

2. Recover whatever games can be recovered, then ditch Steam,

B/ Keep Steam

1. No buy from Steam anymore, learn to spread out purchases over many other available services.

2. Buy less from Steam, them see B1 above.

C/ Maintain the status quo

1. Fight off the doubters in the sure and serene knowledge that soon Gabe will come down from the mountain with Half-Life 3.

2. Just click through and keep on gaming, it's all of little consequence.

3. Huh ?... What were you guys talking about ?

[rickyk]

Originally Posted by Fat Bob

I was just behind on posting and didn't abandon it as you will see if you visit the Help & Tips forum.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=2884023

&

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=2884036

You started them and they are still alive which means I'm assuming its ok to post info in them!

Very cool. Will add some games and some very informative links to them shortly.

[rickyk]

Originally Posted by Planeforger

So...when did this thread stop being anti-EULAs and start being anti-DRM?

TBF, this thread is actually a merger of many different issues that have been clubbed together into one thread by the mods to avoid "clutter".

Originally Posted by Planeforger

How did we get from "Steam's new EULA is terrible, customers need more legal rights!" to "Let's find how many Steam games can be activated on other services, and agree to as many other terrible EULAs as we can!"

I think it was pointed out by several posters that the problem regarding more/better legal rights for customers stems from the current state of the law of the land (in the US) which tends to favor corporates over individuals. Until that changes, little can be done on that front.

Like dxmc stated above, the feeling of some of the posters in this thread is that some other similar services do not forcibly require a specific "client" to be running all the time for one to access ones games and in that sense these services appear to be slightly more user friendly compared to Steam.

Regarding "as many other terrible EULAs", it may be moot to note that Valve was a "pioneer" in this field and everyone else who came later on possibly used Valves TOS as a reference while drawing up their own (albeit with modifications to suit their own needs). That's why they are all so "terribly similar" to Valves TOS, much like software EULA's from various companies are more or less identical.

Originally Posted by Planeforger

A year ago, did anyone honestly think "hey, maybe if we write to Valve rejecting their Terms of Service, they'll give us DRM-free copies of all of our games", or "if Valve stopped forcing people to use their client, maybe they'd make more sales"?

Forget a year - if I was aware even 2 months ago that Steam could lock me out of my games at will if I didn't agree to their "we can change whatever/forever" clause , I wouldn't have bought any games in the last summer sale apart from Steamwork specific titles. The ignorance was entirely my fault for not reading the SSA and I accept this. Lesson learned.

I'm now doing the only thing I can - voting with my wallet and sticking to only Steamwork purchases on Steam while looking elsewhere for other titles even if it means I have to pay MORE for them so long as the service allows me to play my games without a mandatory client once the game is downloaded.

[Tito Shivan]

Originally Posted by Planeforger

I'm a little perplexed. I'm also confused why people are still complaining that Valve should release your games from Steam if you reject the EULA - as if "we rescind the contract, so give us a better service than we had ever agreed to!" makes any kind of sense.

It's about licenses, whether steam is providing with the service of downloading, updating, etc... Many of those games require the acceptance of their proper license terms. Which may mean that aditionally to Steam service SSA you are accepting a license directly from the publisher.
Not to mention the dicotomy that has already been dealt with on the thread of Steam offering 'Subscriptions' yet the store being brim full of 'Purchasing' options.

So people trying to guess if they could access to some of their paid licenses without going through any of the Steam services is a valid guess.
I do, personally, still hold the doubt if using a Steam purchased, downloaded and updated game, even without accessing the Steam client, could be considering 'using' their services (thus causing a implicit acceptation of the modified SSA) Alike accesing the Steam Community like Siv1u has been doing periodically thi time...

Originally Posted by Planeforger

A year ago, did anyone honestly think "hey, maybe if we write to Valve rejecting their Terms of Service, they'll give us DRM-free copies of all of our games", or "if Valve stopped forcing people to use their client, maybe they'd make more sales"?

A year ago, even a month ago, many many people thought Steam would 'Go out of the way' in a case of Steam going out of business, for example.
The forums, even this thread are full of examples of people who invested money in this business thinking Valve would be a company that would do this or that 'out of the box' to please or to put their customers before themselves... Until the SSA change hit.

[flux2]

Originally Posted by Planeforger

A year ago, did anyone honestly think "hey, maybe if we write to Valve rejecting their Terms of Service, they'll give us DRM-free copies of all of our games", or "if Valve stopped forcing people to use their client, maybe they'd make more sales"?

No. However I did expect a company like Valve, that is placed on a platform by so many people as the example of how PC gaming should be, to have policies at least on par with other services.

No other service locks you out of single player games already paid for and installed if you pick "I Disagree". Not on PC, not on any console. People are upset over this as Valve doesn't meet the same standard other digital distribution platforms do. Also other companies could look at this and think "Oh, Valve can get away with that, we should do it also!"

Thankfully for myself, most of the games I had on steam were from indie bundles that gave DRM free downloads I am able to go back and get now. After I complete them, plus my 360 games, plus other DRM free games from GoG, I can make a decision on my games left that are chained to steam.

[leveller]

I've had a wake up call with all this 'accept the changes or lose access to your games'. I was an obsessed fan of Valve until the forced EULA changes. An event like this makes us realise how little we are in control, even though each time we boot Steam we see hundreds of games, hundreds of achievements, multiple badges, hundreds of items gained through hard work, time gaming, pre-orders ... it's an immensely enjoyable hobby ... but we're NOT in control of any of it.

This has shown us that what we treasure and feel attached to, is not really ours. All it would take is a security breach of our details held at Valve HQ, HL3 to be a flop, the release of the next gen of consoles, an expensive patent dispute, EA to turn Origin truly multi platform and more successful than Steam, another market crash even worse than we've just survived ... Etc. All it takes is a combination of events to bring our gaming with Steam, crashing to its knees.

So this is it.

Gaming has gone from buying games, in boxes, with beautiful artwork, huge paper world maps, manuals/instructions that weigh like a book - to renting our gaming, with our fingers crossed that we don't lose our prized collections in some crazy apocalyptic series of events.

Lets face facts - Valve still do more to ENHANCE our gaming, and support PC gaming, than any other company in the industry.

It's time to choose the company who rules our gaming - and strangely, I choose Valve, even though they destroyed my faith a few weeks back.

We must choose who controls PC gaming. AAA gaming on PC is not strong enough to support so many clients, and bitter corporate battles. PC games WILL suffer the extra burden of clients from all these publishers. Eventually, creating less quality games. Then we get more pure console ports than we're being shovelled now. I want PC games - NOT console games. I want the very best my hardware can calculate.

I love PC gaming, a million times more than gaming on my PS3 with its ridiculous loading times and it's tedious range of games, and it's dysfunctional social gaming system. Gaming is my PC. I'm not prepared to give up what Valve have given us, and i'm not giving up my game library in Steam. I want more of it and I don't want to wake up one day and find EA have bought THEM and created a platinum subscription model that costs me a fortune per month to play MY games that I already paid for.

Valve need to win, for PC gaming to win.

And YES in an ideal world Gabe would release a very public announcement through Steam tomorrow morning saying that whatever we've already bought through Steam is suddenly 100% ours, no strings attached, no future losses ...

But, ain't gonna happen is it?

...
...
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Never write posts when jarateed!

[gia257]

eh, I rather not have a ruler but a shop to buy from, im not a serf

[Tito Shivan]

Originally Posted by leveller

I've had a wake up call with all this 'accept the changes or lose access to your games'. I was an obsessed fan of Valve until the forced EULA changes. An event like this makes us realise how little we are in control, even though each time we boot Steam we see hundreds of games, hundreds of achievements, multiple badges, hundreds of items gained through hard work, time gaming, pre-orders ... it's an immensely enjoyable hobby ... but we're NOT in control of any of it.

This is one of the things i like about the SSA update. It has made people more conscient of what they sign their money for. In the end it's nothing more than a business doing business. The moment one starts losing that from perspective the moment one put himself into danger.

Originally Posted by leveller

Gaming has gone from buying games, in boxes, with beautiful artwork, huge paper world maps, manuals/instructions that weigh like a book - to renting our gaming, with our fingers crossed that we don't lose our prized collections in some crazy apocalyptic series of events.

I miss sometimes the old retail purchase experience. Nowadays even buying retail doesn't give you nothing more than going digital.
A box with a DVD (That will require you almost to download it again to patch it) with a CD-Key to tie it to your DD brand of choice...
However i do still keep hopes on the gaming industry itself. It's still a young industry and it isn't much afraidof testing new waters. We need to keep an eye (and our wallets) so they don't choose to go on the wrong side)

Originally Posted by leveller

Lets face facts - Valve still do more to ENHANCE our gaming, and support PC gaming, than any other company in the industry.

And to stop piracy, I've seen many cases of people changing sides, joining the ranks of the good guys thanks to pricing and service of tools like Steam.

It's time to choose the company who rules our gaming - and strangely, I choose Valve, even though they destroyed my faith a few weeks back.

Originally Posted by leveller

We must choose who controls PC gaming. AAA gaming on PC is not strong enough to support so many clients, and bitter corporate battles. PC games WILL suffer the extra burden of clients from all these publishers. Eventually, creating less quality games. Then we get more pure console ports than we're being shovelled now. I want PC games - NOT console games. I want the very best my hardware can calculate.

And the way of choosing how controls PC gaming ONLY goes through our wallets.
Every time any of us toss his money to some Store/DRM/Game/DLC that disagree with. Is doing nothing more than encourage those practices, digging PC gaming deeper in its grave.

And sometimes it means not playing some games, not buying some DLC, not using some service...
And then we hit the 'I need to play that game/DLC/service (That i'll gladly eat whatever hideous side is served with my meal)

[iive]

I want to make a wild accusation on topic that initially may not seem related to the EULA. Read on.

Since the beginning of the year Steam had a peak of about 5million people concurrently logged in. This month it hardly reaches 4.3million, so I tried to find a graph that shows bigger period than 2 days. I found some.

A month before the sale the peaks oscillate around 4.5M, the troughs (bottom) are around 2.5M.
During the sale both peaks and troughs are around 0.25M higher. Right after the sale, the troughs are back to the old levels (2.5M), however the peaks took a big nose-dive. They did recover in 2-3 days, but they still remain at levels around 4.2M . If you look at the graph, it is visually noticeable that the usage has shrunk. Have in mind... CS-GO was released this month and it is multiplayer game! (BTW surprisingly, weekends have least peaks but have highest troughs (playing all night?). The biggest peaks are at Mondays, on the next days they decline. The smallest daily peaks are at Saturdays).

I couldn't find statistics for a bigger period of time (I'll be glad if somebody finds a link), so I cannot rule out that this nosedive is normal after a sale or for this particular month.

Still, I have the feeling that the EULA/SSA endeavor came at the price of 7% of loyal regular customers ditching steam. It is very likely that this directly translates into lost sales, too. Actually, I suspect that 2.4M of the permanently logged-in users are people who just have steam installed and running by default, without actively using it. In that case the above ratio jumps to 14%.

Yes, I know they choose the time to be after a big sale, to minimize the hit on profits. But the biggest question is... when would the things go back to normal and when would people once again forget that they are hostages to the Steam DRM and subscription service?
How long would this nosedive last and was it really worth it?
I mean... if the money that are lost in sales are about as much as the sum of one or two big class action lawsuits...
Maybe there is reason EA stocks are failing and that corporation is now for sale. Maybe Valve doing whatever everybody else is doing would only bring the same (bad) results.

Also... While there were less people logged-in, the services seemed to be overloaded. I suspect that more people were actually downloading their collections to their own computers. Just in case they have to salvage them (e.g. play them offline).
I know this is what I'm doing at the moment. (FYI, I haven't yet allowed steam to restart in order to upgrade itself).

Don't forget - this is just a wild speculation. I do lack the big picture. I may be wrong about everything. Find the data on your own. Make up your own mind.

Have Fun.

[MeMeMeMeMe]

Originally Posted by Tito Shivan

And to stop piracy, I've seen many cases of people changing sides, joining the ranks of the good guys thanks to pricing and service of tools like Steam.

I've seen that too. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those people switched back to piracy with decisions like that.

It's certainly hit my confidence with valve. I frequently bought daily deals, just because, but I haven't bought anything since that
EULA change, and am looking at other services for my games.

[Satoru]

Originally Posted by iive

Don't forget - this is just a wild speculation. I do lack the big picture. I may be wrong about everything. Find the data on your own. Make up your own mind.

Have Fun.

http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/...&postcount=543

The numbers in each summer have been a little lower than the immediately preceding winter numbers, but they're higher than the previous summer.

So we're looking more or less at the normal 'dip' in number due to seasonal factors

Or you might note that it's summer and that

1) Most of the USA is on vacation
2) Most of europe is on vacation and considering that having a pulse gives you about 4 weeks vacation by default lots of people are simply not online
3) Colleges and universites are out

http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

A good talk about how the mouth foaming on the forums generally does not necessarily translate into action. Which is also evident by all the rediculous 'petitions' concerning MW3/BF3 that people still ended up buying anyway. People talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

[SPG]

Originally Posted by Satoru

A good talk about how the mouth foaming on the forums generally does not necessarily translate into action. Which is also evident by all the rediculous 'petitions' concerning MW3/BF3 that people still ended up buying anyway. People talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

Well, I don't think you're going to see protesting on the street, but these things do have an unseen effect. For instance, I had an incident happen to me on the forums at the beginning of the year. I now buy a lot of games elsewhere. It's less than a flea bite to Steam, but this incident over the SSA will probably add a few more bites from others. Just because people don't publish their intentions on the forum doesn't mean it isn't quietly happening. But it's not going to be obviously noticeable unless it happens in great numbers.

[dxmc]

Originally Posted by Satoru

People talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

Haven't bought a game on Steam since May 17, don't intend to buy there again, particularly after some of the behavior I've seen recently from some hammer legion members. Maybe those who have done something are a minority, but looked at from a certain P.O.V. that's irrelevant.

It isn't about external changes necessarily, like changing Steam/Valve. It's just as much about individual consumers becoming more well-informed, gaining greater insight, and re-considering their personal economic behavior.It's about individuals coming to terms with their personal spending habits and making an effort to make better, less impulsive, less peer-motivated decisions. If only a few people have now re-evaluated and made some changes to their behavior, or just given the whole set of issues fair consideration for the first time, then I'm happy. This is just as much about individuals as it is about corporations.