AI teammates become dumber?

[xerrolavengerii]

Originally Posted by jdm1983

There's always room for improvement in ANY game.

Having been around since Day One of PayDay i've seen many a suggestion get considered by OK.

There have already been a few AI improvements since day one. Can you believe they were even worse at one point?
Be thankful you have the experience you have today because some of us spoke up.


Also, the default difficulties of DH and Slaughterhouse were lowered from Hard to Normal.
That was a very controversial debate at the time. Many people felt they should just remain hard and people should get 'better'.
OK still implemented it though and I think that was the right decision because it helps newcomers experience all the maps.

So its good to speak up for soemthing you care about.
As long as it's a sensible idea/change and for the betterment of the experience then there's no harm in asking.
OK may just listen.
They have before.

BUT I DO REMEMBER back when AI wouldn't follow you through the holes in the ground and wall in First World Bank, and then you would die to tasers and stuff cause they couldn't help you :P

Oh man, nightmares...

but seriously, every patch overkill is like OMGZ we made the Law Enforcers SMARTER!!! but you never hear about improvements to the team AI... w.e.

[jdm1983]

Originally Posted by xerrolavengerii

BUT I DO REMEMBER back when AI wouldn't follow you through the holes in the ground and wall in First World Bank, and then you would die to tasers and stuff cause they couldn't help you :P

Oh man, nightmares...

but seriously, every patch overkill is like OMGZ we made the Law Enforcers SMARTER!!! but you never hear about improvements to the team AI... w.e.

Ah, so you're a fellow early comer too?

Yes, when they wouldnt go through the holes in FWB that was the very first AI fix!

Until then, you're right it made SP FWB almost impossible once you got to the escape part. That room would be full of tasers and you'd be all alone.

I agree, there have been many Cop tweaks since then and very few teammate tweaks.
Especially with these new, rather more 'complicated' maps that we now have.
The issues really stand out more.
They just need a bit more TLC.

[jdm1983]

Just giving this a bump to mention another case just today with this issue of AI.

I was playing Undercover and the power went off and Bain directed me to turn the power back on and that it was on the ground floor.
So I go down, flip the switch and then come back to turn on the computer (we are situated on floor 3).

Anyway , while restarting the computer, one of the bots goes down.
So there I am thinking 'great! Alright i'll come get you up soon as i've got this computer running again' and then I look to see -where- he has gone down and it says:

"Dallas downed on the roof."

What in god's name was he doing up on the Roof?!!

I hadn't even gone anywhere near the roof.

First, we were all together in the server room.
Then I went DOWN stairs to flip the switch.
One of the bots must have just decided to go UP.

So, they clearly DON'T follow you properly.

Suffice to say, I had to go all the way up there, and to make matters worse, right to the middle of the roof out in the open where both he and i got shot to buggery and beyond by a volley of snipers as i picked him back up.

That wasn't fun!

It's definately issues like this that highlight there can definately be some further work done on the Team AI.

[xerrolavengerii]

Ugh, no mercy is impossible with bots above normal >_<

[Tessio77]

I used to think the Team AI were seriously underwhelming with all the new SWAT AI tweaks that has been improved by Overkill over the months. I would voice my slight displeasure over this, but knowing how tight knotted and united this community is when it comes to the online component of this awesome game, I kept it to myself instead.

But if Overkill would start taking suggestions in the near future, perhaps after we're done cracking the Counterfeit secret, here's a little list of improvements I would like:

- Allowing Team AI to finally sprint and keep up with the human players.

- Allowing hosts to select the Team AI's weapons, equipment and crew bonuses in the Load Out Menu.

(I still remember the early days where the Team AI had access to the Reinbeck 880 Shotgun and couldn't follow you down to the Vault in First World Bank. Imagine if Dallas had a Brenner 21 instead of the usual Compact-5 or the AMCAR-4 or Chains being downed wielding a Bronco .44)

- Allow us to highlight objectives using our beloved F key to get them to do something mission-related.

(i.e. Highlight a civilian to get them to tie them up or highlight the 2nd can of Thermite to get them to pick it up and hit F again where the can is suppose to go later to get them to deploy it. Same concept could be employed with the Gold Bags on Slaughterhouse and executing "Plan A" in Counterfeit)

- More cooperative scripted events.

(i.e. On No Mercy, have the Team AI guard all 3 Panic Buttons once the heist starts. Have them stand right next to it or something and flag any civilians down trying to play hero until we advance far enough into the heist for them to abandon their post as opposed to them being scripted to sit in the random chairs of Mercy Hospital)

Thanks to the author and other forums members that pitched in ideas for bringing this thread up so I can finally express how Single Player could be improved and provide the full experience to everyone who doesn't want online games where players fail to place the Drill in First World Bank despite repeated reminders for them to do so only to get mad once they wander outside the Bank and die on Hard.

Carry on and happy heisting!

[Brickcall]

Originally Posted by Tessio77

- Allowing hosts to select the Team AI's weapons, equipment and crew bonuses in the Load Out Menu.

Small change to what you suggested; I foresee some abuse if Overkill proceeded as you suggested.

Example: I hole up in the Vault Hallway. I have given all three of my AI allies Brenners. I can't really see the enemy punching through that with any sort of ease.

Or Heatstreet/Green Bridge with the AI wielding M308s.
Yeah their accuracy isn't perfect, but they're better at noticing enemies, their ammo doesn't run out, they're far tougher than actual players...

Maybe give the team their "canon" loadouts? Dallas goes in with the Crosskill, Brenner, Mark 11...they all go in as the class they supposedly are. That'd introduce a little more versatility in the AI, but it'd limit the reliance on them.

[Tessio77]

I'd much prefer the AI to be using their respectable class weapons too. Never thought of the abuse for having 3 Brenner 21's on the team. Yeah, I'd like it much better if they had they own sets of weapons to be limited to. Brilliant tweak to my idea. Thanks Brickcall!

[jdm1983]

As always, I will continue to provide my support for any thread regarding improvements to Single Player.

Originally Posted by Tessio77

- Allowing hosts to select the Team AI's weapons, equipment and crew bonuses in the Load Out Menu.

I have to agree with Brickcall on this one.
Rather than being able to necesarily micromanage the Bot loadouts, it would be cool however if they simply followed their class.
Wolf therefore for example would always have the AK as his primary.
Hoxton the M308.

The 'deployables' are a controversial issue however.
having bots drop sentries and med bags as well as you could be used to make Single Player 'too easy'.

Although I don't agree with that whole sentiment (won't go into why here though) a suggestion I have as a workaround would be to:

-allow bots to drop deployables such as the sentry or med bag -BUT- anything a bot drops as opposed to the human player is a level 1 (base) version of that item so therefore its 'usefulness' is severely limited.
So for example the bots medbag will only support, what is it, 2 uses for the base level 1 version?
That way it can't be 'relied on' but it may certainly 'help'.

Originally Posted by Tessio77

- Allow us to highlight objectives using our beloved F key to get them to do something mission-related.

This is a controversial suggestion.

I agree mostly with OverKill with the decision NOT to have the bots run around being able to do everything for you.

That said however, I DO agree theres room for them to at least be able to carry some of the extra stuff that isn't mission critical, but bonus.
Why not? A four man team can easily do this in MP so its hardly an 'exploit'!

I would like to suggest something OK COULD consider though.

What if Bots CAN be told (they shouldnt automatically) to place saws, restart drills etc BUT while they are engaged in such an activity, for the duration that it takes, that bots health drops to 1.
Therefore, if a Bot gets hit even once while placing or restarting a drill or what not, they're down.
That way, you as a player can't just abuse it, for two reasons.

1) Now your goal is to actually keep that bot alive

&

2) its actually RISKIER to tell a bot to do it so it prevents it being a 'relied upon' approach.

You also will need to guard that bot like a hawk while he does it so you can't just tel a bot to 'restart a drill miles away'.

With 1 health, he'll be done for, unless you're with him, actively protecting him.

Originally Posted by Tessio77

- More cooperative scripted events.

This I agree with but I feel falls more into the realms of simply being able to physically control the AI more.

Rather than OK having to script where the AI should go at particular moments, it would be more flexible and overly more efficient if human players can simply tell bots where to stand and stay put at any given moment.
Classic examples being No mercy as you say, Counterfeit garden with the hostages and then counterfeit basement when the guards come.

I -actually- think the bots should be dumber.
I think the big issue is that OK have tried to make the bots 'smart', in that they have their own minds as to how they should be playing this game, where they should go ,when etc.
that's usually where it all falls apart.

Really, it should be more a case of 'human knows best, human tells bots how to play'


I saved the most crucial to last.

Originally Posted by Tessio77

- Allowing Team AI to finally sprint and keep up with the human players.

This!

If none of the above get implemented (because they are simply nice features anyway) this is simply a fix thats -needed- so i agree 100%.
They need to move faster but also, they need to respond to when you yell at them far more efficiently than they do at present.

Literally, my last SP game, I must have yelled at the bots over 20 times and they kept saying 'yep coming' but only moved 2 inches before stopping again.
They actually never DID get to me in the end.
Come on guys!!!

Once again, case of 'human player knows best'!

if im yelling at a bot its

a) usually for a reason

and

b) usually at a time when I want a prompt response, be it:


*get out of that firefight into cover

*come back me up while I restart power

*stay here and dont wander around

* get me up!!!!

In a single player game, it's better to assume that the human player knows what the better thing to be doing is.
If the bots have conflicted ideas, like they do at the moment, it just makes SP unnecesarily messy and complicated.

I -almost- wouldnt complain if the bots had LESS AI and literally did nothing but 'follow orders'.
They should still shoot back by default and everything of course but I mean in terms of moving around.

By default, their brain literally says:
"follow human wherever human goes until human says otherwise and if human runs we run too.
if human says 'stop', we stop.
if human says 'stand on this spot' , we stand on that spot.
if human says 'get over to me', we stop what we're doing and run over to the human.

Actually making them 'simpler' but granting the human player more direct control would actually alleviate so many of the issues.

I get why OK added 'bot AI', to give the illusion we're playing with humans, but, lol, were clearly not, far from it, and that AI is actually leading itself into reckless situations and annoying the Sp whos trying to play it properly!


Classic Example:

"Having to run onto the exposed roof of Undercover to pick up the whole AI team who have decided to randomly go up there and get downed, when I personally wasnt going anywhere remotely near the roof and costing me the whole game" is -NOT-the SP experience it should be IMO.

[Nothing.]

Originally Posted by jdm1983

As always, I will continue to provide my support for any thread regarding improvements to Single Player.



I have to agree with Brickcall on this one.
Rather than being able to necesarily micromanage the Bot loadouts, it would be cool however if they simply followed their class.
Wolf therefore for example would always have the AK as his primary.
Hoxton the M308.

The 'deployables' are a controversial issue however.
having bots drop sentries and med bags as well as you could be used to make Single Player 'too easy'.

Although I don't agree with that whole sentiment (won't go into why here though) a suggestion I have as a workaround would be to:

-allow bots to drop deployables such as the sentry or med bag -BUT- anything a bot drops as opposed to the human player is a level 1 (base) version of that item so therefore its 'usefulness' is severely limited.
So for example the bots medbag will only support, what is it, 2 uses for the base level 1 version?
That way it can't be 'relied on' but it may certainly 'help'.






This is a controversial suggestion.

I agree mostly with OverKill with the decision NOT to have the bots run around being able to do everything for you.

That said however, I DO agree theres room for them to at least be able to carry some of the extra stuff that isn't mission critical, but bonus.
Why not? A four man team can easily do this in MP so its hardly an 'exploit'!

I would like to suggest something OK COULD consider though.

What if Bots CAN be told (they shouldnt automatically) to place saws, restart drills etc BUT while they are engaged in such an activity, for the duration that it takes, that bots health drops to 1.
Therefore, if a Bot gets hit even once while placing or restarting a drill or what not, they're down.
That way, you as a player can't just abuse it, for two reasons.

1) Now your goal is to actually keep that bot alive

&

2) its actually RISKIER to tell a bot to do it so it prevents it being a 'relied upon' approach.

You also will need to guard that bot like a hawk while he does it so you can't just tel a bot to 'restart a drill miles away'.

With 1 health, he'll be done for, unless you're with him, actively protecting him.




This I agree with but I feel falls more into the realms of simply being able to physically control the AI more.

Rather than OK having to script where the AI should go at particular moments, it would be more flexible and overly more efficient if human players can simply tell bots where to stand and stay put at any given moment.
Classic examples being No mercy as you say, Counterfeit garden with the hostages and then counterfeit basement when the guards come.

I -actually- think the bots should be dumber.
I think the big issue is that OK have tried to make the bots 'smart', in that they have their own minds as to how they should be playing this game, where they should go ,when etc.
that's usually where it all falls apart.

Really, it should be more a case of 'human knows best, human tells bots how to play'


I saved the most crucial to last.




This!

If none of the above get implemented (because they are simply nice features anyway) this is simply a fix thats -needed- so i agree 100%.
They need to move faster but also, they need to respond to when you yell at them far more efficiently than they do at present.

Literally, my last SP game, I must have yelled at the bots over 20 times and they kept saying 'yep coming' but only moved 2 inches before stopping again.
They actually never DID get to me in the end.
Come on guys!!!

Once again, case of 'human player knows best'!

if im yelling at a bot its

a) usually for a reason

and

b) usually at a time when I want a prompt response, be it:


*get out of that firefight into cover

*come back me up while I restart power

*stay here and dont wander around

* get me up!!!!

In a single player game, it's better to assume that the human player knows what the better thing to be doing is.
If the bots have conflicted ideas, like they do at the moment, it just makes SP unnecesarily messy and complicated.

I -almost- wouldnt complain if the bots had LESS AI and literally did nothing but 'follow orders'.
They should still shoot back by default and everything of course but I mean in terms of moving around.

By default, their brain literally says:
"follow human wherever human goes until human says otherwise and if human runs we run too.
if human says 'stop', we stop.
if human says 'stand on this spot' , we stand on that spot.
if human says 'get over to me', we stop what we're doing and run over to the human.

Actually making them 'simpler' but granting the human player more direct control would actually alleviate so many of the issues.

I get why OK added 'bot AI', to give the illusion we're playing with humans, but, lol, were clearly not, far from it, and that AI is actually leading itself into reckless situations and annoying the Sp whos trying to play it properly.

having to run onto the exposed roof of Undercover to pick up the whole AI team who have decided to randomly go up there and get downed, when I personally wasnt going anywhere remotely near the roof and costing me the whole game is -NOT-the SP experience it should be IMO.

Brilliant, constructive, and with suggestions to boot. I like it. Thanks for your support on the single player mode too, I hope it gets more support in future patches.

[Rudeboyariot]

Originally Posted by xerrolavengerii

I would say that while the Law AI has been improved over and over (much to overkill's glee) the team AI could use a number of basic decision-making and movement improvements.

1) AI teammates need to learn how to sprint. They should learn to use sprint when moving to the player from great distances, and to match the speed of players. To deal with some pathing problems, and since players can't shoot while sprinting, the AI would likely need a damage handicap while sprinting, like an extra 30-50% damage resistance while sprinting.

2) AI teammates need to proactivly seek out and yell at civilians. In the small rooms of No Mercy specifically, the AI is very bad at stopping 3 feet from civilians and letting them stand around instead of shouting them to the ground.

If both of these two things can be fixed, than the Team AI doesn't need any physical improvements (damage accuracy etc) for them to perform better.

I like your thinking. I'd love to see those ideas come to fruition (especially for the problems with sprinting on HS)

And on another matter, concerning the guy who said there's no point in voicing/discussing our thoughts and ideas on the game here. I think that's totally ridiculous ! No.1 That's what forums are for. And No.2 I haven't been a member of loads of forums but i do know that here at least, we get regular words from one of the devs, Bo. OK has done a lot to support and improve our gaming experience on Payday to date and i like to think that they do pay SOME attention to what we as gamers want. So no, it's not a waste of time whatever comes from it.

[Faraa98]

since the 15 th update the bot AI was fixed up.

they have more health, if one of your team is downed by the cloaker the AI first kills the cloaker before he saves you or another teammember, they got more firepower (wich is really nice i must say)and follow you better then before.

i testet it first in solo gameplay and i was happy, it was like a dream (first world bank)i was really really happy about the changes, and its sometimes possible to beat the mission perfectly without any dumb actions from the AI.

then i played with my payday friend engelchen together with the two AI bots
we did panicroom on hard difficult.
engelchen was surprised how much stronger the ai had become and was happy about it too.

but on the "clear the roof part" the AI sadly did show what they once learned... "many enemies? ok i ll go into battlefield alone and SHOOT EM ALL GNARHHAHAHA....hoxxxtooon help me uuuup"

the big and only main problem is still here, the AI must stay at the player in a team, and not rushing into a third world war to get a nice medal for being death.

after 10 health attemps at chains and dalls (the AI) me and engelchen still beat it.

heatstreet on hard was a fail, but we tryed it just one time

a nice sample is on diamond heist.

when i get the CFO to bain i ll hide almost everytime in the little house where the alarmbox is on the roof. 2 AI members was inside with me, but a third one is ALWAYS outside. even if i shout at him, he s sneaking at me into to room, just to get a split second after that out again..and guess what? right he dies because he s alone outside while the assult wave is.

and then the two other guys will go out just to die then too.


dear overkill team, thats still a big problem.

not because i cant enjoy the singleplayer game with this bugs but while the rage quit rate in online games is very very high and then you are alone or with another human and the two bots that will not follow you.

they even not stay as a AI group together...every AI bot is splitting up and does his own thing, its suposed to fail when they do this.

so my improvment sugestion is

- make AI sprint

- make AI stick as a group together (even when the player is not at the AI group)

- make AI not rushing into a battlefield just to make them die

i think thats the three big things that should be done to make the AI complete enjoyble and fun to play

so it would be no problem too to play no mercy or counterfeit on PLAN B way.

of course i must say that noone can expect that you can do any OK 145 heist with the AI, there must be a handicap, otherwise it would be not fun to play.
but in my opinion it should be posible to beat at least every heist on hard difficult with your AI mates, just to have some SP fun too.

but i want to thank for the buffs you did already iam very happy about that and thats no lie !

[veribigbos]

The only thing I'd really want is the ability to tell bots to stay at a specific spot until I shout them back over to me. Especially in FWB, when I need to go get the second thermite I don't want bots lagging behind me so much that by the time I get back to the vault, the bots are still at the server room. Another example would be in Undercover or No Mercy when the power goes out.

The order to stop and wait could be activated for example by holding down F while looking at a bot.

[jdm1983]

Originally Posted by veribigbos

The only thing I'd really want is the ability to tell bots to stay at a specific spot until I shout them back over to me. Especially in FWB, when I need to go get the second thermite I don't want bots lagging behind me so much that by the time I get back to the vault, the bots are still at the server room. Another example would be in Undercover or No Mercy when the power goes out.

The order to stop and wait could be activated for example by holding down F while looking at a bot.

While I agree with you that the implementation of 'stay put' would definately be really useful, it's not the 'only thing needed' nor the 'main thing' needed.

they need to follow your basic 'follow' order better and also move with the player better.

In your example for instance with the bots all being by the server room while your back at the vault with the thermite, that's a direct result of them not moving with you properly (lagging behind) and then also, not responding quick enough when you yell at them.

That needs fixing above all else.
Anything else IMO is lovely bells and whistles.

Give you an example.

You dont want to be in a situation where you've told the bots to stay by the vault while you go get the thermite and you get tazered by the server room and they dont get to you in time because:
the 'follow' issue wasnt fixed.