why is Valve so against changing class in MVM?

[Grandy]

Originally Posted by Gedeon

should be that way in PvP too

learn to play instead of trying to class-counter everything that kills you

Man, why even upgrade your weapons? l2p, man. Like, go there and defeat that Tank with your mad rocketjumping skills. That'll be usefull.

Ambush those literal aimbots as the skilled Scout, that'll get you very far.

Go and be the great skilled Medic which can fill up the uber by ubersawing enemies. That won't backfire at all in this mode.


Turns out, in MvM, skill won't take you very far. You <i>need</i> the upgrades. I'm fairly sure you need them literaly too, as in, "in some waves, you can't DPS enough to kill everything without upgrades".


As for the people saying how easy it would be to change classes everytime...

Why not, dunno... make waves harder to compensate for that?


Also, I find it kind of hypocrite to say "you shouldn't be able to optimize your team for each wave" while at the same time saying "you have to go and optimize your team for each map".

You're saying "you shouldn't be able to make smart choices" while at the same time saying "you should have to make smart choices"

[Portal Boy]

In my experience, the map that suffers the most from this is Decoy. All the other maps allow a certain degree of leeway in which you can play a round with an imperfect class and get by on skill. Decoy, however, expects a perfect class combination for its later waves and if you havent started with wave 8 in mind, you may as well not try the map at all.

One of the other issues i find is that if someone leaves, especially on decoy, it upsets the class balance. I`m a good spy when it comes to killing medics, but if the dps isnt then able to kill the giants, i`d prefer to go soldier or demo to take out those medics so that i can add some damage for them....but i cant change. On a normal Tf2 map if my team isnt taking out a sentry, i know i can go soldier or demo, take it out for them and then return to whatever i was doing...i cant do that on mvm.

[Gedeon]

Originally Posted by Grandy

Man, why even upgrade your weapons? l2p, man. Like, go there and defeat that Tank with your mad rocketjumping skills. That'll be usefull.

irrelevant. Nowhere did I mention anything about upgrades.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Ambush those literal aimbots as the skilled Scout, that'll get you very far.

scouts are ironically one of the best sniper killers. You vastly overrate sniper bots, they leave themselves very vulnerable and wait far too long staring at potential targets.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Go and be the great skilled Medic which can fill up the uber by ubersawing enemies. That won't backfire at all in this mode.

Not sure what you're getting at, but you can actually ubersaw sentry busters, distracted bosses and revealed spies for very easy free uber.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Turns out, in MvM, skill won't take you very far. You <i>need</i> the upgrades. I'm fairly sure you need them literaly too, as in, "in some waves, you can't DPS enough to kill everything without upgrades".

spoken like a true 2fort regular. Again, nowhere did I mention anything about upgrades. If anything, you are more likely to make great use of upgrades if you don't switch classes every wave.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Also, I find it kind of hypocrite to say "you shouldn't be able to optimize your team for each wave" while at the same time saying "you have to go and optimize your team for each map".

You have no need to switch classes at all with people who know what they're doing. The only nearly-essential asset required for mvm is a maxed lvl3 wrangler, nothing else. Not even a medic is necessary.

[The Parasite]

lets not let this descend into petty bickering. There are valid points in this thread.

I think thoughts on a compromise where class switching is allowed, but in a limited fashion in terms of how often, or when you can do so, or for a credit price, would work best.

[Rynjin]

Originally Posted by Gedeon

should be that way in PvP too

learn to play instead of trying to class-counter everything that kills you

It's been a while since I've seen this much stupid compressed into so few words.

[Grandy]

Originally Posted by Gedeon

irrelevant. Nowhere did I mention anything about upgrades.

The whole point of this topic is about being unable to upgrade classes after you switch halfway through. Your answer to that is to "learn to play", meaning you think skill is more important than upgrades. Thus, relevant.

scouts are ironically one of the best sniper killers. You vastly overrate sniper bots, they leave themselves very vulnerable and wait far too long staring at potential targets.

Where did I mention sniper bots? I said aimbots. All the bots in this gamemode are aimbots. Have you noticed how the giant rapid fire pipe launchers never fire to your left or right, but straight at you, and how as soon as you kill a single bot all the others spin around on the spot?

Not sure what you're getting at, but you can actually ubersaw sentry busters, distracted bosses and revealed spies for very easy free uber.

Yes, I can also manntread them. Doesn't mean it's a good strategy.

spoken like a true 2fort regular.

Uh... where did you even get this from? From the part I said upgrades are more useful than skill in MvM? Well, duh, it is.

Seriously, get a team of pros, put them in MvM, and tell them not to get upgrades. Now get a team of newbs, put them on MvM, and tell them to get upgrades. Let us see which team fares better.

If anything, you are more likely to make great use of upgrades if you don't switch classes every wave.

Yes... and that is relevant how? I mean, the whole point being discussed here is that players shouldn't be punished with maintaining the same class during the entirety of the game. all you pointed out is that, currently, they are.

You have no need to switch classes at all with people who know what they're doing. The only nearly-essential asset required for mvm is a maxed lvl3 wrangler, nothing else. Not even a medic is necessary.

Really? Make a team with 5 snipers and one 1v13 wrangler. See how far you get before you're screaming at one of them to switch classes.

[The Parasite]

any further thoughts on this.

[discrider]

bind = reconnect;

Afaik, reconnecting to the same server should refund the credits and allow you to switch class. Depends on whether it tracks the player though, but it should trump the queue doing it this way.

[Gedeon]

Originally Posted by Rynjin

It's been a while since I've seen this much stupid compressed into so few words.

guess you haven't made an habit out of dominating raging kids. I understand it may be difficult playing the game with a controller.

Originally Posted by Grandy

The whole point of this topic is about being unable to upgrade classes after you switch halfway through. Your answer to that is to "learn to play", meaning you think skill is more important than upgrades. Thus, relevant.

And my point is you don't need to switch in the first place. All classes with nearly all unlocks can steamroll mvm.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Where did I mention sniper bots? I said aimbots. All the bots in this gamemode are aimbots. Have you noticed how the giant rapid fire pipe launchers never fire to your left or right, but straight at you, and how as soon as you kill a single bot all the others spin around on the spot?

Yes. That doesn't make scout any less bad. All the "AIMBOTS" have very large variations that makes them miss with the scattergun and the huntsman. The others shoot straight at you like you said which means you can dodge by holding down A or D. Scout is a beast in mvm.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Yes, I can also manntread them. Doesn't mean it's a good strategy.

Why are you comparing a ~100 damage jump against +50% ubercharge?

Originally Posted by Grandy

Uh... where did you even get this from? From the part I said upgrades are more useful than skill in MvM? Well, duh, it is.

Skill is always the determining factor. A fully upgraded soldier can be awful and contribute nearly nothing. A sniper can wreck games with just his primary, not even using jarate.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Seriously, get a team of pros, put them in MvM, and tell them not to get upgrades. Now get a team of newbs, put them on MvM, and tell them to get upgrades. Let us see which team fares better.

Again, I have nothing against upgrades. I have something against people who think they can't get things done because they would rather pick an easier class.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Yes... and that is relevant how? I mean, the whole point being discussed here is that players shouldn't be punished with maintaining the same class during the entirety of the game. all you pointed out is that, currently, they are.

Again, they shouldn't have to switch in the first place if they're any decent.

Originally Posted by Grandy

Really? Make a team with 5 snipers and one 1v13 wrangler. See how far you get before you're screaming at one of them to switch classes.

I know you're thinking you're smug, but what's funny is I believe it could easily be done. You're probably one of those guys who hate the bison, right?

[Demoman 2101]

Originally Posted by ned_ballad

that's not a good excuse at all, especially not if a team has been banging at the mission for hours, losing hours of progress with no guarentee you'll ever get that far again is not a good system at all. It only leads to frustration, and that's the last thing you want in a Video Game, no less a F2P game

So, you are telling me to turn Hard Difficulty into Easy difficulty? Since when have any games done that?

All games (lots of Strategy) commonly have Easy, Medium and Hard (if not a Brutal) difficulty. These are created to give everyone a good experience, as good players can play medium, new players can play easy and experienced players can play hard. Nobody would ever want to change on that.

Valve however, added rewards for beating the game, though only on hard difficulty. Why? To make the rewards more valuable, and makes people want them more. BTW it's unfair to beat a game on hard difficulty, just to get the same reward as the easy difficulty players.

So, Valve decided to create a Boot Camp for unexperienced players, so they could practice up to play a harder difficulty. That's what we all do, except for the fact that some people are already experienced.

This is basicly why we don't make Mann Up any easier.

[Ridley]

Originally Posted by Grandy

Join a game as the only spy, make the smart choise to upgrade the sapper.

Someone leaves, another Spy joins, you are now redundant, better change class- oh wait.

How I always feel at least in one wave a day in mvm. At least let only some upgrades become removable like resistances.

[kirbyte]

It adds difficulty but not in the team-based fps sense. Late-comers don't get the punishment and reconnecting circumvents it. Overall I don't think it's necessary and more of a frustration than a way to increase strategic thinking. You shouldn't be able to switch classes/upgrades mid-wave of course.

Reading through the thread I still don't really see the logic in supporting it.

[ned_ballad]

Originally Posted by Demoman 2101

So, you are telling me to turn Hard Difficulty into Easy difficulty? Since when have any games done that?

Two things

1. There's a big difference between something being challenging and something being frustrating. And losing hours and hours of progress is not hard, it's just frustrating. It's why games aren't made with dead ends that force you to restart anymore, and why game ending bugs are so terrible. Unless you'd like to say the bug that forces you to restart Zelda Skyward Sword over again adds to the challenge? Maybe that's why Games for Windows sometimes deletes saves, it's just adding to the challenge! Wasting a gamer's time isn't fun, it's just bad game design.

2. MvM has only two difficulties: Medium and Brutal. There's no proper hard or easy modes. And the jump between Medium and Brutal is a huge one. We need a hard mode and we need an easy mode.

[Gedeon]

Originally Posted by ned_ballad

2. MvM has only two difficulties: Medium and Brutal. There's no proper hard or easy modes. And the jump between Medium and Brutal is a huge one. We need a hard mode and we need an easy mode.

3 difficulties, actually.

normal, hard, decoy.

[Grandy]

Again, I have nothing against upgrades. I have something against people who think they can't get things done because they would rather pick an easier class.

I hope for the sake of your argument, that when playing PvP, you never switch from the class you originally started as.


EDIT: Also, I have no idea about the Bison. Never paid attention to it. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it another attempt of a veiled insult like "sounds like a 2fort player" because you had nothing more relevant to say?


I'm betting on the later.