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Old 12-11-2012, 08:15 PM   #16
Captain Blades
 
 
 
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Because it can't hold a candle to the pistol for finishing off enemies, and has a very tiny hitbox which i've seen 80% of scouts miss.

Or the mad milk for that matter.

Seriously, at close range or on a slow or unsuspecting sniper target, the sandman-cleaver is like a slower version of the D'axestingreaser kill, albeit with more skill, but at mid range, forget it.

It's a slow projectile with no noticible trail, and to do the combo means robbing yourself of both projectiles, your pistol/milk, and dropping 25 health.

Plus you have to hit two difficult shots with people trying to kill you, for a kill, and unless you're fighting a brass beast heavy, or camping the vents in turbine, nearly the only thing i've seen scouts do is spam their ball/guillotine into crowds, then run away when it fails with no pistol to heckle me with.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:21 PM   #17
Crit-O-Clock
 
 
 
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Ball + Cleaver is a nice combo, but it's hard to pull off. And with the best scouts, once they stun you you're dead anyway, just with the scattergun.

I could see Ball + Cleaver being your only option against coordinated teamwork, where you can't safely get up close and run away and need to snipe someone from a distance.

But it's a very situational weapon. And the power of long-ranged hitscan can't be overstated. And Mad Milk is pretty great too.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:33 PM   #18
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also the delay when you click and the scout actually throws is abysmal
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedeon View Post
also the delay when you click and the scout actually throws is abysmal
Yeah, it's like the whip in Castlevania...
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:36 PM   #20
A 1970 Corvette
 
 
 
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It's fun

but it's not efficient
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A 1970 Corvette View Post
It's fun

but it's not efficient
Like most of the weapons in TF2 that lie largely unused?

We have a whole game full of weapons, yet i can only see the worth in using maybe 15.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:39 PM   #22
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It's fun in combo with sandman, but in general I can't be pried away from pistol/pocket pistol. Maybe mad milk if I'm using the milkman set.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blades View Post
Like most of the weapons in TF2 that lie largely unused?

We have a whole game full of weapons, yet i can only see the worth in using maybe 15.
Games are for fun

If winning is your definition of fun then use those 15 weapons with people who also only use those 15 weapons

I'll use whatever I like regardless of anything else
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:45 PM   #24
Crit-O-Clock
 
 
 
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Also, compare the damage. The pistol deals a minimum of 8 damage at its furthest range. You can attack about 6 times in a second, and it has a clip of 12.

If you can land every hit, you deal 96 damage. And remember. That's with minimum damage of 8! Base damage is 15. Closer shots will deal a lot more damage, not to mention random crits.

Flying guillotine deals 50 damage, then causes 40 damage in bleed over 8 seconds. So that's 90 damage in 8ish seconds, less than minimum pistol damage in two seconds.

The only advantage of the guillotine is that you do a lot of damage all at once, and then can run away, and that it can minicrit and crit under the right situations.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:51 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crit-O-Clock View Post
Also, compare the damage. The pistol deals a minimum of 8 damage at its furthest range. You can attack about 6 times in a second, and it has a clip of 12.

If you can land every hit, you deal 96 damage. And remember. That's with minimum damage of 8! Base damage is 15. Closer shots will deal a lot more damage, not to mention random crits.

Flying guillotine deals 50 damage, then causes 40 damage in bleed over 8 seconds. So that's 90 damage in 8ish seconds, less than minimum pistol damage in two seconds.

The only advantage of the guillotine is that you do a lot of damage all at once, and then can run away, and that it can minicrit and crit under the right situations.
you are not going to land your 12 pistol shots

6-7 at most, and that's if you're at close range
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:52 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A 1970 Corvette View Post
Games are for fun

If winning is your definition of fun then use those 15 weapons with people who also only use those 15 weapons

I'll use whatever I like regardless of anything else
Hey now.

I... like doing well at my class? With weapons that are useful and fun to use? Not broken and unbalanced? This whole thread is about why a weapon is intlferior/superior...

How did i paint myself as a tryhard? Using weapons like the winger, and the boston basher ain't no fun, because i get demolished repeatedly by opponents who are also trying to have fun.

Its not like there's a secret club that uses only MY favorite weapons, all the time. Which is also implying that I don't play in pubs, or anywhere with random people with a different loadout.

You need to understand that fun is everyone's own opinion, and to me, kicking with my class and the weapons that do their jobs well is fun. Don't beat me up for enjoying a well-thought out weapon idea.

Im pretty sure that winning makes most people's experience more fun

Of course, you could simply play demoknight, which doesn't really help the war effort, but is very fun.

Last edited by Captain Blades: 12-11-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:56 PM   #27
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If you want to unlock its epicness use it with the soda popper. My god, mini-crit cleavers EVEN if you miss with the sandman. 10.8 Bleed per second with an initial hit of 60-70. Can really save your life against an enemy scout or pyro.

And let's not forget you still have the 100+ damage meatshots of the soda popper.

Honestly it's the most fun way of playing scout. If you want to be useful though use the scattergun and pistol or milk. That's not to say that it's straight out useless, but you get a lot more consistency with a normal loudout. It's worth it though for the 10% of the time you stop a kritzkreig medic or heavy. High risk and high reward.

Last edited by CasualT2: 12-11-2012 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:58 PM   #28
Crit-O-Clock
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedeon View Post
you are not going to land your 12 pistol shots

6-7 at most, and that's if you're at close range
True. But you're not going to land every guillotine shot either. So the guillotine is a lot more risk, for not much more reward. You can miss occasionally with the pistol and still do decent damage.

Let's say you get the average of 15 base damage and have just a 50% accuracy rate, hitting 6 times in 2 seconds. That's 90 damage, same as the guillotine deals over 8 seconds.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:12 PM   #29
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It's time to contest everyones' claims and tell them how wrong they are! Gather 'round!

Disclaimer: I used to be full stock scout with some Atomising in there, so I have legitimately played the mainstream loadout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utilt View Post
Because Milk and (Pocket) Pistol are better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assbandit View Post
Because everyone's using Mad Milk.
I haven't seen mad milk used by more than an occasional scout in a long time, and I play a lot of 5cp and Payload. Everyone's using milk and pocket pistol? I barely see milk, and haven't seen a pocket pistol in a long while. Months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
Because you're locking yourself into that playstyle by using the Guillotine and Sandman. Besides, the Scout already has a source of burst damage. It's called a scattergun.
I use the guillotine without the sandman, because I never pick weapons that sacrifice health (sandman, vita-saw, warrior's spirit, big earner... all subpar), and it still packs a punch. And you still are just as effective at scattergunning.

Plus at medium range, scattergun is pretty bad. Pistol ain't so flash either, unless they are barely moving, and even then the DPS is pretty low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab View Post
Because everyone else has already had it for a few months and it's played out. It's really not That Great.

Not hitscan
Small projectile for a non-hitscan weapon
Doesn't work terribly well on it's own

If you wanna go throw hatchets at people all day go play COD and make some 360 noscope cross map hatchet montage or something.
- Nothing wrong with projectile weapons, as long as you know how to use them.
- Again, small projectile can be offset by practice/skill... you can't say a weapon is bad because you're bad with it.
- It actually does work well on its own: 50 base damage + 40 more or so from bleed... all this is passive damage, which means you can pull your scattergun out and play normally after the first throw. It's like normal scout, but with an extra 50 damage + bleed in the approach where you normally wouldn't be doing much extra damage anyay. It owns in 1v1 scenarios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blades View Post
Because it can't hold a candle to the pistol for finishing off enemies, and has a very tiny hitbox which i've seen 80% of scouts miss.

Or the mad milk for that matter.
Not if you're good with it!

Quote:
Seriously, at close range or on a slow or unsuspecting sniper target, the sandman-cleaver is like a slower version of the D'axestingreaser kill, albeit with more skill, but at mid range, forget it.
Yes, the sandman + cleaver is far too slow and far too hard to hit to be practical. But cleaver by itself negates this by being quick to throw and without having an HP downside.

Quote:
It's a slow projectile with no noticible trail, and to do the combo means robbing yourself of both projectiles, your pistol/milk, and dropping 25 health.

Plus you have to hit two difficult shots
with people trying to kill you, for a kill, and unless you're fighting a brass beast heavy, or camping the vents in turbine, nearly the only thing i've seen scouts do is spam their ball/guillotine into crowds, then run away when it fails with no pistol to heckle me with.
Yeah, the combo is bad. But that isn't the cleaver's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crit-O-Clock View Post
Also, compare the damage. The pistol deals a minimum of 8 damage at its furthest range. You can attack about 6 times in a second, and it has a clip of 12.

If you can land every hit, you deal 96 damage. And remember. That's with minimum damage of 8! Base damage is 15. Closer shots will deal a lot more damage, not to mention random crits.
Yeah, if you can consistently hit all 4 pipes on every target you can do 400+ damage! Why does he even need a sticky launcher?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you can consistently hit both the cleaver and an entire pistol clip, or you can't do either. Don't tell me the cleaver is too hard to aim then say that if you hit every pistol shot you can do 96 damage.

A single cleaver hit does 50 damage + 40 bleed minimum. This is 90 damage, and it also adds the disorienting bleed effects AND allows you to get on with your scattergunning immediatly. Unloading a pistol clip takes far longer than a guillotine throw, and in a best case scenario (read: almost never) it only does slightly more damage, minus the scattergun damage you could be doing. Yowch!

Quote:
Flying guillotine deals 50 damage, then causes 40 damage in bleed over 8 seconds. So that's 90 damage in 8ish seconds, less than minimum pistol damage in two seconds.
So you can do 90 damage, invoke bleeding disorientation, AND continue scattergunning... or with realistic pistol aim do maybe 70 damage out of scattergun range (which means hard to follow up). I know what I'd pick.

Quote:
The only advantage of the guillotine is that you do a lot of damage all at once, and then can run away, and that it can minicrit and crit under the right situations.
Actually it's the complete opposite. The advantage of the guillotine is that you can inflict 50 damage, then have disorienting damage over time as you finish picking them apart. It's like having more intrusive fire as a scout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab View Post
No sentry damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacethief View Post
Doesn't do any damage to mini sentries.
This is the only legitimate arguement I admit against the guillotine. I can't claim it is more effective against sentries... the pistol is necessary to plink away at minis or unguarded level 3s.

However, with this in mind, the pistol becomes a utility secondary when your team can't deal with sentries, with the guillotine reigning as supreme for pure deathmatching.

It costs basically nothing to throw at the start of a fight, but if you land it, it adds 50 damage + bleed for free. No maintenance, high reward, with the only price being a bit of skill. It made scout fun for me again.

Last edited by Bum.: 12-11-2012 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:30 PM   #30
Captain Blades
 
 
 
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Yes it is bad, and the cleaver's fault. You keep saying its bad, and it is.

Not if your good with it? That doesn't even apply, as even with all the leading aim in the world, any regular speed class can simply change direction at mid range, and force a miss when they see you pull it out and the firing delay. Or get screwed by the tiny hitbox.

Its an ambush weapon. Good on slow, unaware targets, but impractical in straight fights.

Last edited by Captain Blades: 12-11-2012 at 09:32 PM.
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