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Old 01-31-2013, 09:44 AM   #1
apdonato
 
 
 
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Post EPIC BOT COMPARISON SHOWDOWN: RC Bots vs TF Bots

Which bots are the best? Lets find out!



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RC Bots (as of version 0.71, February 23, 2013)

Pros:

- Good performance, no stuttering
- Bots pick random classes
- Engineer bots will move buildings and upgrade teleporters
- Better bot customization (change, remove, add bot profiles/names)
- Work very well on CTF
- Support more game modes than TF Bots
- Bots will use more voice commands like "Medic!" and "Go Go Go!"
- Scout bots will double jump and soldiers will rocket jump
- Bots use melee weapons frequently
- Bots mess around during setup

Cons:

- Prone to crashing the game (partially fixed in version 0.71)
- Use a waypoint system that isn't fluid for bot movements
- Bots move about 20% too slow
- Barebones support for Mann vs Machine
- Bots are too easy, even after making bot profiles of the highest difficulty possible
- Although supporting more modes, support less maps in general
- Much harder to add waypoint support for more maps
- Achievement and Status tracking doesn't work (partial workaround is available)



TF Bots (as of January 31, 2013)

Pros:

- Use a navigation mesh system that makes bot movement very fluid and natural
- Bots navigate terrain better
- Easy to add support for more maps (nav_generate command)
- Work well for modes which are supported (KOTH, PL, A/D, 5CP)
- Much more challenging than RC Bots, even on normal difficulty
- Very good sense of teamwork among bots, pushing points at the last few seconds of the round etc.
- Engineer bots often pick good, unique, random locations for their nests
- Engineer bots will upgrade dispensers and sentries quickly and efficiently

Cons:

- Prone to game engine (framerate) stuttering on particular maps (example: Gravelpit)
- Certain bot classes aren't picked randomly (hard/expert bots will always pick 2 medics per team)
- Bots don't rocket jump/double jump
- Engineer bots don't carry buildings, upgrade teleporters, or help other engineers
- Barebones support for CTF
- No bot support for Payload Race, Special Delivery, and Mann vs Machine
- Very little bot customization (can't pick names, custom difficulty per bot etc.)
- Bots typically only melee when they run out of ammo (with the exception of Spies and Snipers)



Omni-Bots (as of January 31, 2013)

Cons:

- WHY WE HAZ NO OMNI-BOTS YET???



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Verdict:

Frankly both have pros and cons, and it basically boils down to personal preference.

Some cons like bots not using custom loadouts weren't put on the list because neither officially support this yet.

We are yet to see any Omni-Bots...

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This thread will be updated as new pros/cons are thought of and when bots are updated.

Links:

RC Bots: http://rcbot.bots-united.com

TF Bots: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Bots

Omni-Bots: http://www.omni-bot.com/wiki/index.p...eam_Fortress_2

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Happy fragging!

Last edited by apdonato: 03-01-2013 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:03 AM   #2
Gedeon
 
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rcbots?

ohmy

last time I saw these was in half-life 1
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:28 PM   #3
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Yeah, maybe three years ago or so when RCBots were the only option they were pretty fantastic... at least I was able to play some TF2 in Iraq, and on ctf_aerospace nonetheless, so that was great.

I'm going to have to re-install the RCBots and give them a go again - I used to have all the waypointing stuff bound to handy keys on my old laptop, and that bit of set-up made working with or modifying waypoints much easier at the time.

Though frankly, I'd expect VALVe to give us an easier method to modify waypoints, etc., for the TFBots. Sure, I can modify things like that currently but it's much the same feel that working with RCBot waypoints had about three years ago.

Some form of UI would be helpful with our current TFBots, though quite often the nav_generate works out pretty darn well, especially for koth maps.

I've actually come to like some of the silly TFBot quirks like DemoMortars and ultra-airshotting Soldiers, but some things like the aimbot Snipers are rather irritating at times... either way, they're still better to play with/against than having no TF2 when I'm on the road for work.

I'd still appreciate some further tweaks to the TFBots, obviously... like assignable unlock weapons/items that function correctly... would be rather fun playing against functioning TFBot Spies with DR's or Soldiers with Direct Hits.

Last edited by thepounder1: 01-31-2013 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:09 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thepounder1 View Post
Yeah, maybe three years ago or so when RCBots were the only option they were pretty fantastic... at least I was able to play some TF2 in Iraq, and on ctf_aerospace nonetheless, so that was great.

I'm going to have to re-install the RCBots and give them a go again - I used to have all the waypointing stuff bound to handy keys on my old laptop, and that bit of set-up made working with or modifying waypoints much easier at the time.

Though frankly, I'd expect VALVe to give us an easier method to modify waypoints, etc., for the TFBots. Sure, I can modify things like that currently but it's much the same feel that working with RCBot waypoints had about three years ago.

Some form of UI would be helpful with our current TFBots, though quite often the nav_generate works out pretty darn well, especially for koth maps.

I've actually come to like some of the silly TFBot quirks like DemoMortars and ultra-airshotting Soldiers, but some things like the aimbot Snipers are rather irritating at times... either way, they're still better to play with/against than having no TF2 when I'm on the road for work.

I'd still appreciate some further tweaks to the TFBots, obviously... like assignable unlock weapons/items that function correctly... would be rather fun playing against functioning TFBot Spies with DR's or Soldiers with Direct Hits.
waypoint isn't the appropriate word for TF Bots... TF Bots use an actual navigation "mesh" or a layer on top of the map we all see and play on so that the bots can see the map in their own "language" and play on it themselves... a much better system for bots if you ask me... RC Bots on the other hand use a "rail" system in which they follow and almost never deviate from...

now if valve had bots in mind when they first built the source engine, then they would have encoded the needed information for bots to use in the actual game world geometry so that bots wouldn't even need a navigation mesh, which would mean less CPU usage for bots to function... but sadly they didn't think of it

it sure would be great for Valve to make some kind of AI editor, but if they don't release a clean, user-friendly official map editor (Like the editor for Far Cry 2/3) I doubt they would bother with a Bot Profile/Bot Navigation editor of any sort...

Theres ALOT of money to be made off of a concept like this, NO game really takes any advantage of bot AI in a "multi player" environment and there are plenty of people out there that would love to mess around with AI Bots

i rather have the TF Bot sniper hit me almost every time than the RC Bot sniper ALWAYS MISS... because them RC Bots are WAYYYY TOO EASY...


Its clear that RC Bots were pretty much designed for CTF, because I played every other mode with them, and support is pretty mediocre on CP maps to tell you the truth... Payload and Special Delivery work OKAY I guess but CTF is very good for RC Bots... if only TF Bots and RC Bots can be leisurely added together without having to jump through hoops to get working (pausing the plugin etc.)... and then there are the crashing issues and lack of stat tracking that the RC Bots have so until those issues are fixed, TF Bots are really the only way to go

Last edited by apdonato: 01-31-2013 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:27 PM   #5
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I can agree about appreciating DemoMortars, and I've found that I'm starting to emulate them a bit. It's surprisingly effective against bots, and when I'm able to play with people again I'm tempted to see just how many human players are prepared for a Demoman who knows how to arc their stickies.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:58 AM   #6
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bumpp
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:07 PM   #7
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They are really slow.

But I nearly took a when a bot engineer ran over to my sentry and upgraded it.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:47 AM   #8
apdonato
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exchef123 View Post
They are really slow.

But I nearly took a when a bot engineer ran over to my sentry and upgraded it.
huh.. thats weird, i can't believe i missed that in the cons section of rc bots... its pretty dam obvious i admit... yea them rc bots be moving too slow... not a huge issue if you ask me, the only issue i have a REAL problem with is the crashing, which is why i still only use TF bots...
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apdonato View Post
the only issue i have a REAL problem with is the crashing, which is why i still only use TF bots...
Ditto
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:40 AM   #10
IronCore
 
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well I hate how tf2 looks now but bec. rcbot2 has so much support and love to it tnx to CHeeseh's undying work I'm giving it a shot.

ALso the speed and achievement issues have been resolve already on rcbot current versions. hope the crashes are also gone to.
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:19 PM   #11
rcbotCheeseh
 
 
 
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Cool

yeah well with the regard to the cons in the first post last time, most of these have been fixed or improved since then:

- Prone to crashing the game (partially fixed in version 0.71)
There are still some crashes but most have been fixed

- Use a waypoint system that isn't fluid for bot movements
The waypoint system may not be fluid but does allow for rocket jumping, double jumping, good sentry points and sniper points. There is a waypoint community, Mr Genmac being one of them who actually love to waypoint and it brings customization to the bots. Most waypoints have already been done which require no editing for stock maps.

- Bots move about 20% too slow
Fixed now

- Barebones support for Mann vs Machine
Much more support now, including defending at proper points depending on where the flag is, attacking the tank and sentry busters.

- Bots are too easy, even after making bot profiles of the highest difficulty possible
There is also a cvar called rcbot_skill which can be increased. Also not just the skill but the visibility cycles of bots can be increased which can reduce reaction times but increase CPU load

- Although supporting more modes, support less maps in general
Depends on waypoints only but does support all map types as far as I know. Let me know if there are any map types or maps that they don't support. cp_degrootkeep is an example map which rcbot actually now supports quite well and doesn't require scripting.

- Achievement and Status tracking doesn't work (partial workaround is available)
This is now fixed

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New additions with regard to snipers, these have been change drastically since the old versions. They now have much better aim, they will dodge rockets and grenades, and cower once they take a shot.

The only problem is that it requires -insecure mode to start, but so does every other plugin. The only way around this is to run on a dedicated server and connect with a client.

Last edited by rcbotCheeseh: 01-29-2015 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 01-30-2015, 03:24 AM   #12
IronCore
 
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Hi yah CHeeseh, genmac here hehe!

After some days of play testing tf2 which I now love (hehe I'm asian I totally dig valve humor now), I can honestly say Rcbot2 is the better tf2 bots, now!!!
They can play MvM and CTF really well and all other modes I've played so far. No more crashes! my kid plays tf2 everyday around 2-7 hours, yeah crazy kid hehe and no crashes so far.

Once I'm done checking all the supported maps will try make more rcbot tf2 wpts to the ones that don't have them yet as well some nav meshes to since I kinda know how to optimize those as well.

I'll also do the ultimate bot battle video of the 2 at their max settings of course and see who wins terms of pure combat and their own bot tactics hehe!

Last edited by IronCore: 01-30-2015 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 01-30-2015, 05:46 PM   #13
rcbotCheeseh
 
 
 
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Smile

speaking of the ultimate bot battle, tfbots always r*pe rcbots in dustbowl until the third point usually because tfbots don't build teleporters. Sometimes they're able to hold them off in defense on point 2. I'd try a koth map.

I find the tfbot level ridiculous. One time I joined in the fight and a found a tfbot pyro looking the other way while I was demo, I thought "haha he's gonna get piped!" as soon as I fired my pipe he turned round and deflected my pipe back at me. Ridiculous reaction times .

With Rcbot I'm trying to create something you'd normally find on a public server, with noobs and experts together (there are profiles with very low/high sensitivity and reaction times for noobs and experts respectively). With tfbot you get something like a clan game where you don't even count in the team.

btw there is one crash bug in rcbot right now due to sentry klls which I;vefixed for next version. Next rcbot version will bring a spy update
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:44 PM   #14
IronCore
 
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yeah tf bots combat wise are just the cscz bots or css bots.
I think you should add a super bot feature too just to match the tf bots super fast reaction and accuracy, that's what make them super lethal like those crazy super accurate hldm bots made by botman ions ago hehe.

when it comes to tactics and cp play they definitely matching up well with tf bots and sometime even better. tf bots seems faster moving almost quake like speed while rcbots seems a little slower but that's good for an old gamer like me haha! I can speed them up anyway using some plugin.

Last edited by IronCore: 01-30-2015 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 02-05-2015, 03:09 AM   #15
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Also maps these days barely have nav meshes.
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