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Old 07-13-2013, 05:05 PM   #31
eee
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Salty-b View Post
No, including all the weapon and random critz, even all critz wouldn't make the matches pure luck. Just becaus something includes a dice, doesn't mean every aspect of it is pure luck.
All crits is less luck based than random crits. The reason random crits aren't wanted is because it makes it harder to definitively say you've beaten the other team through pure skill and strategy. You might have better DM and Game sense, or you might've gotten lucky and crit the medic every time he got 99%
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Old 07-13-2013, 05:45 PM   #32
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I didn't read the whole thing (feel free to call me an idiot) but this point is mainly what I have trouble with:

Quote:
2: Has it made the game more competitive and skill based?
Spuf (i don't mean the pubbers NECESSARILY, I also mean you, and a lot of people that actually share my opinions too) has a TERRIBLE idea about what skill is, what is skillful etc. What I find the most worrisome is that a lot of people indiscriminately make the case for weapons being OP by way of low skill. Literally the only thing that actually remains consistent about the way these people demonize unlocks is the way they don't touch the unlocks of thier preferred 6s league. Ask a euro Tf2 player 1 year ago about the gunboats, and they'd whine about it the same way na players complain about... Well nearly every unlock.

What's really eye opening is when you talk to a comp player who stopped playing Tf2 during the class updates. They'll harbor certain opinions about the game, as remnants of the opinions of the playerbase from when they left. One guy was ing about the FaN, saying it was broken for comp play and should never have been a part of comp Tf2. Can you imagine where comp Tf2 would be if we banned the FaN right then? nvm, we'd be in the same exact place...
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Old 07-13-2013, 05:49 PM   #33
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About quantifying skill. I see a lot of people up-play the upsides and downplay the downsides, as a way of making every weapon seem op and easy. For the majority of cases, unlocks require different skills.
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:51 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jifcuits View Post
I don't think tf2 is a fast paced game. Maybe fast compared to other current popular fps' out there but compared to the older twitch shooters it's snail mode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFjVNFnmmzk
Seems like it wasn't snail mode that bad. Also looks like stickies had a pulse indicating an arm time...This might have been before they released TF2(not the video itself). I thought stickies had no arm time when valve released it.

(probably would've been broken tbh)

Last edited by TendaMonsta: 07-13-2013 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:59 PM   #35
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Wow,this thread opened my eyes a little. Thank you Deep for this sensible thread.

I have just two questions (one of them is off topic):

#1: When it comes to unlocks that are currently banned, get a rebalance later on, do they reconsider said unlock with rigorous playtesting, or do they just judge the book by the cover?

#2: Why do 6's usually run 5CP (and occasionally KOTH) and not Payload or other gamemodes? Same goes for Highlander.

Thanks, and +rep.
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:04 PM   #36
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OP has some good points, but I couldn't help but notice a pattern: it seems that 6v6 setups are designed specifically to minimize the possibility of a stalemate via removing "random" elements from the game.

Why, though?

Stalemates are what make TF2 lively. Balls-to-the-wall pushes to each point can be fun, but it can get tiresome to see multiple matches ended within a few minutes of them starting. When two teams are stuck in a stalemate, it encourages cooperation between individuals to break the stalemate (I mean, comp's all about people working together), and it creates tense moments of sporadic fighting followed by the inevitable mass push. Stalemates can lead to pushes, and although they may take a while to clear up, they are just as fun to watch as regular comp matches.

Heck, the engineer's main job is creating stalemates, and the medic's job is to break them. That's how the game was balanced from the very beginning (hence the number of chokepoints in maps like Well and Dustbowl).
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Caveson View Post
Wow,this thread opened my eyes a little. Thank you Deep for this sensible thread.

I have just two questions (one of them is off topic):

#1: When it comes to unlocks that are currently banned, get a rebalance later on, do they reconsider said unlock with rigorous playtesting, or do they just judge the book by the cover?

#2: Why do 6's usually run 5CP (and occasionally KOTH) and not Payload or other gamemodes? Same goes for Highlander.

Thanks, and +rep.
I know the Winger and Quick Fix are still allowed. DDS, Battalions back up are still and will remained banned. Usually if weapons are changed mid.season they are banned sometimes they are.allowed winger and quick fix being examples. They do test them though.

6's is to fast pased and wants to prevent as many stale mates as possible whicg Payload is full off. Payload also doesnt fit the 6's style with only 6 people 1 is going to.push the cart putting attackers at a disadvantage.

HL doesn't run 5CP because of how stale matey it is. A match a while back was played on granary and the middle point took about 20 minutes to be capped. It's not always like that but for the most part 5CP is supposed to be back and forth not stalematey which happens in HL a lot because of engy.

Do hope i helped you
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevinger View Post
OP has some good points, but I couldn't help but notice a pattern: it seems that 6v6 setups are designed specifically to minimize the possibility of a stalemate via removing "random" elements from the game.

Why, though?

Stalemates are what make TF2 lively. Balls-to-the-wall pushes to each point can be fun, but it can get tiresome to see multiple matches ended within a few minutes of them starting. When two teams are stuck in a stalemate, it encourages cooperation between individuals to break the stalemate (I mean, comp's all about people working together), and it creates tense moments of sporadic fighting followed by the inevitable mass push. Stalemates can lead to pushes, and although they may take a while to clear up, they are just as fun to watch as regular comp matches.

Heck, the engineer's main job is creating stalemates, and the medic's job is to break them. That's how the game was balanced from the very beginning (hence the number of chokepoints in maps like Well and Dustbowl).
This question was posted by someone else earlier. Pardon the first part of what I say



These are really fast and end quick don't they? There are no clutch moments or back and forth never ending action because it ends fast. Right?

Just to show a few.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyob...e_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D5_...e_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxq0...e_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJye...e_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2U...e_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCqa...e_gdata_player

Maps like Dustbowl and Well weren't designed to be like that. They are just pooly designed maps and it happens to seem like that.
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:14 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Maxillaws View Post
I know the Winger and Quick Fix are still allowed. DDS, Battalions back up are still and will remained banned. Usually if weapons are changed mid.season they are banned sometimes they are.allowed winger and quick fix being examples. They do test them though.

6's is to fast pased and wants to prevent as many stale mates as possible whicg Payload is full off. Payload also doesnt fit the 6's style with only 6 people 1 is going to.push the cart putting attackers at a disadvantage.

HL doesn't run 5CP because of how stale matey it is. A match a while back was played on granary and the middle point took about 20 minutes to be capped. It's not always like that but for the most part 5CP is supposed to be back and forth not stalematey which happens in HL a lot because of engy.

Do hope i helped you
ARGH I CAN'T GIVE YOU REP BECAUSE I MUST SPREAD IT AROUND!!!

So if that didn't answer your question, then, yes it helped me.

Though I could do without the spelling errors, but that's because you mainly type on a phone, so I understand.

(You need to get a laptop or something spellcheck man)
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Caveson View Post
ARGH I CAN'T GIVE YOU REP BECAUSE I MUST SPREAD IT AROUND!!!

So if that didn't answer your question, then, yes it helped me.

Though I could do without the spelling errors, but that's because you mainly type on a phone, so I understand.

(You need to get a laptop or something spellcheck man)
Well glad to have helped.

Sorry about that.

I'm to poor to get one and my computer recently broke.

And my phone doesn't have spellcheck which i find weird.
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:58 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty-b View Post
No, including all the weapon and random critz, even all critz wouldn't make the matches pure luck. Just becaus something includes a dice, doesn't mean every aspect of it is pure luck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWqT_KgeyuU
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:02 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eee View Post
All crits is less luck based than random crits. The reason random crits aren't wanted is because it makes it harder to definitively say you've beaten the other team through pure skill and strategy. You might have better DM and Game sense, or you might've gotten lucky and crit the medic every time he got 99%
Well, as I have said, some people like, and even compete in dice games which is more random than random critz as the dice is a core in the gameplay.
There is nothing in competitiveness that says random events can't be a part. Yes, sometimes you can win by pure luck, but most of the time you will win because you are generally better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strings View Post
I don't know what that video is supposed to relate to my post?
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Salty-b View Post
Well, as I have said, some people like, and even compete in dice games which is more random than random critz as the dice is a core in the gameplay.
There is nothing in competitiveness that says random events can't be a part. Yes, sometimes you can win by pure luck, but most of the time you will win because you are generally better.
Okay, there's nothing in competitive that says it can't have random events. Where does it say it HAS to have random events? That's just such a redundant thing to say.
In my opinion you should win if you're better all the time. And a tf2 crit literally decides an entire round. Whoops spammed a crit rocket on mid which killed 3 people, welp that's pretty much GR guys. Lol pistol crit the medic at full charge, GR guys.

To be fair you did actually answer your own question. These competitive games have random elements in them because they're core. Crits are not a core part of tf2.
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:39 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mouldaiselne View Post
Okay, there's nothing in competitive that says it can't have random events. Where does it say it HAS to have random events? That's just such a redundant thing to say.
In my opinion you should win if you're better all the time. And a tf2 crit literally decides an entire round. Whoops spammed a crit rocket on mid which killed 3 people, welp that's pretty much GR guys. Lol pistol crit the medic at full charge, GR guys.

To be fair you did actually answer your own question. These competitive games have random elements in them because they're core. Crits are not a core part of tf2.
I haven't said that competitive has to have random events, but I am saying that some like random events in some competitive. So using that something is random, therefore it isn't competitive is wrong.
Well, I say that something many competitive players ban because it would make do much of a difference has to be a core part of the game?
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:46 AM   #45
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So what about that big jump between the start of competitive and the WAR! update?
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