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Old 03-20-2017, 11:45 AM   #31
JBski
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by The Medic View Post
I wish everyone would stop assuming that everyone is good at video games. They're not. Most people are not good at video games. For every player that has a hundred kills and three deaths in a game, there HAS to be players that have the opposite.

Yes, there's a lot of bad players in TF2, but the tutorial is and non-existent, it's a free-to-play game meaning there's no dedication and the game's default settings are ing awful for new players, with things like quick weapon switch being the default being NEW things for the game.

And on top of that, TF2 is a hard game to play well, even more so if you're coming in from consoles. It's a fast-paced quake-like shooter with high skill ceilings even for classes like Medic and Soldier, with a billion little tiny things that the game half the time doesn't tell you.
We don't care that they are bad, we mostly care that TF2 seems to be the first program they opened after they installed their keyboard. These people would be trash at Super Mario Bros, or even Tetris. While I understand that most people won't have the 20+ years of "vidya gaems" experience when they first play TF2, expecting them to have even a basic understanding on how to move and use the weapons before they hit a server appears to be a bridge too far for most of the new TF2 playerbase.

This is why the "Free 2 play" insult was created, and still persists to this day, despite most of the veteran players now being "Free to Play".

If you have no idea how to play a FPS, perhaps a fast class based competitive shooter just isn't your speed to learn, especially if you can't handle OG titles like Doom (the first ones), or more recent titles (like CoD: Modern Warfare) at the lowest difficulties. People who aren't familiar with TF2 see the price tag (free) and the cartoony graphics and falsely believe that it is "easy", which leads to inexperienced players being quickly discouraged when they spend most of the rounds in respawn.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:43 PM   #32
Loose Cannon
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Terobero View Post
What does mat_phong and quick weapon switching do?
Mat_phong is a type of shading that makes lighting look less "flat." Consequently, there's a more variable range of colors. It also makes everything look "shinier" and sort of plastic, however, and it makes the textures look more clear (which only gets worse with time due to their relatively low resolution).

With mat_phong disabled, the game looks more cell-shaded and stylized, due to the shadows being deeper and the lighting being softer. I prefer it, and it brings the game closer to what the designers originally intended, but it also causes texture issues and performance issues for some (though it causes performance improvements for most).
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:39 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by TMNWG View Post
That just seems like a wasted effort to me. It's hard enough to votekick cheaters, and you're trying to coordinate one against someone who's just playing bad? Good luck.
It takes 4 inputs and works roughly half the time when you call out why they need a kick.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:48 PM   #34
JBski
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Mech_Chicken View Post
It takes 4 inputs and works roughly half the time when you call out why they need a kick.
Noting their reason as "idle" usually gets the point across, if they don't get kicked.

Now, if only getting kicked for being idle took away XP...
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:07 AM   #35
d4m0
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by JBski View Post
If you have no idea how to play a FPS, perhaps a fast class based competitive shooter just isn't your speed to learn, especially if you can't handle OG titles like Doom (the first ones), or more recent titles (like CoD: Modern Warfare) at the lowest difficulties. People who aren't familiar with TF2 see the price tag (free) and the cartoony graphics and falsely believe that it is "easy", which leads to inexperienced players being quickly discouraged when they spend most of the rounds in respawn.
but tf2 was designed so that it would be easy to pick up for a newbie to the genre

that's why half of the classes exist in the form they do
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:14 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBski View Post
We don't care that they are bad, we mostly care that TF2 seems to be the first program they opened after they installed their keyboard. These people would be trash at Super Mario Bros, or even Tetris. While I understand that most people won't have the 20+ years of "vidya gaems" experience when they first play TF2, expecting them to have even a basic understanding on how to move and use the weapons before they hit a server appears to be a bridge too far for most of the new TF2 playerbase.

This is why the "Free 2 play" insult was created, and still persists to this day, despite most of the veteran players now being "Free to Play".

If you have no idea how to play a FPS, perhaps a fast class based competitive shooter just isn't your speed to learn, especially if you can't handle OG titles like Doom (the first ones), or more recent titles (like CoD: Modern Warfare) at the lowest difficulties. People who aren't familiar with TF2 see the price tag (free) and the cartoony graphics and falsely believe that it is "easy", which leads to inexperienced players being quickly discouraged when they spend most of the rounds in respawn.
I'm not sure what your point is.

Players are mislead when it comes to the game. It's advertised as fun and cartoony and simple to play, when TF2 is an astonishingly hard game in reality. But it's clearly the players' fault that they're not instantly good at the game with no proper tutorials, awful default settings and almost no in-game support from both the game and the veteran players who stomp all over them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d4m0 View Post
but tf2 was designed so that it would be easy to pick up for a newbie to the genre

that's why half of the classes exist in the form they do
Classes like Heavy, Medic and Pyro seem simple on the surface, but if you want to be vaguely competent at the game, you have to learn ideal positioning, all the little tiny extra mechanics like jump-revving and timing airblasts, and be able to understand each battle as you come to it.

These are all things you don't magically learn in your first few hours, and you're not going to learn if that guy at the top of the scoreboard is constantly sending you back to spawn.

Last edited by The Medic: 03-21-2017 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:23 AM   #37
d4m0
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by The Medic View Post
Classes like Heavy, Medic and Pyro seem simple on the surface, but if you want to be vaguely competent at the game, you have to learn ideal positioning, all the little tiny extra mechanics like jump-revving and timing airblasts, and be able to understand each battle as you come to it.
I never said they had no depth, although they don't have enough, but they are simple enough that you can play them while learning the rest of the game.

Quote:
These are all things you don't magically learn in your first few hours, and you're not going to learn if that guy at the top of the scoreboard is constantly sending you back to spawn.
you do know that making mistakes is how you learn, right? You are going to learn a lot less playing against bots who are too bad to kill you than you are if you die a lot at first. Getting owned is pretty much the fastest way to improve at any pvp game
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:49 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by JBski View Post
We don't care that they are bad, we mostly care that TF2 seems to be the first program they opened after they installed their keyboard. These people would be trash at Super Mario Bros, or even Tetris. While I understand that most people won't have the 20+ years of "vidya gaems" experience when they first play TF2, expecting them to have even a basic understanding on how to move and use the weapons before they hit a server appears to be a bridge too far for most of the new TF2 playerbase.

This is why the "Free 2 play" insult was created, and still persists to this day, despite most of the veteran players now being "Free to Play".

If you have no idea how to play a FPS, perhaps a fast class based competitive shooter just isn't your speed to learn, especially if you can't handle OG titles like Doom (the first ones), or more recent titles (like CoD: Modern Warfare) at the lowest difficulties. People who aren't familiar with TF2 see the price tag (free) and the cartoony graphics and falsely believe that it is "easy", which leads to inexperienced players being quickly discouraged when they spend most of the rounds in respawn.
What are you, the Gamer Police? TF2 was my first shooter too, ya

What a hilarious belief that people should stay away from certain video games because they have no experience yet just because there are similar games in that genre that you consider "easy". No, any game should be able to be beaten by anyone, if we look at well-designed games. Multiplayer games pose a different challenge so you can't just guide people in TF2 like in Portal, but that doesn't mean that new players have to stay away.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:27 AM   #39
JBski
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by The Medic View Post
I'm not sure what your point is.

Players are mislead when it comes to the game. It's advertised as fun and cartoony and simple to play, when TF2 is an astonishingly hard game in reality. But it's clearly the players' fault that they're not instantly good at the game with no proper tutorials, awful default settings and almost no in-game support from both the game and the veteran players who stomp all over them.



Classes like Heavy, Medic and Pyro seem simple on the surface, but if you want to be vaguely competent at the game, you have to learn ideal positioning, all the little tiny extra mechanics like jump-revving and timing airblasts, and be able to understand each battle as you come to it.

These are all things you don't magically learn in your first few hours, and you're not going to learn if that guy at the top of the scoreboard is constantly sending you back to spawn.
TF2 is not a game for people who have never played games. Most people will not stick with it because spending entire rounds in respawn while you get constantly killed by veteran players isn't fun, and there is currently no way to scale back the "difficulty" by placing them in servers exclusively with other new people around their skill level.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:31 AM   #40
JBski
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Thurbo View Post
What are you, the Gamer Police? TF2 was my first shooter too, ya

What a hilarious belief that people should stay away from certain video games because they have no experience yet just because there are similar games in that genre that you consider "easy". No, any game should be able to be beaten by anyone, if we look at well-designed games. Multiplayer games pose a different challenge so you can't just guide people in TF2 like in Portal, but that doesn't mean that new players have to stay away.
No, they absolutely should not. This is why modern gaming is going down the ter. If at first you cannot beat the game, get good, scrublord.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:48 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by JBski View Post
No, they absolutely should not. This is why modern gaming is going down the ter. If at first you cannot beat the game, get good, scrublord.
I don't think this is what he meant at all.
What about story driven?
What about puzzles?
What about games where the challenge doesn't source directly from the end result but rather the journey to it?

Also, what about Journey? I ing loved that game!

Last edited by MysticTheMeeM: 03-21-2017 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:50 AM   #42
Raikoin
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by JBski View Post
No, they absolutely should not. This is why modern gaming is going down the ter. If at first you cannot beat the game, get good, scrublord.
Isn't that why we have difficulty settings and the like? Let the people who enjoy stories and the video-game medium play on lower difficulties so they can participate even if they're not good at games. No need to lock people out of a medium or limit what the game can do because people 'not worthy of playing the game' might manage to beat it.

I've played games on lower difficulties especially when playing creatively or less optimally on followup playthroughs so I get use out of lower difficulty or less severe restrictions on some mechanics, some of the time anyway.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:38 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Medic View Post
I wish everyone would stop assuming that everyone is good at video games. They're not. Most people are not good at video games. For every player that has a hundred kills and three deaths in a game, there HAS to be players that have the opposite.

Yes, there's a lot of bad players in TF2, but the tutorial is and non-existent, it's a free-to-play game meaning there's no dedication and the game's default settings are ing awful for new players, with things like quick weapon switch being the default being NEW things for the game.

And on top of that, TF2 is a hard game to play well, even more so if you're coming in from consoles. It's a fast-paced quake-like shooter with high skill ceilings even for classes like Medic and Soldier, with a billion little tiny things that the game half the time doesn't tell you.
When I first started playing TF2 on PC after playing TF2 on consoles for years, I remember being absolutely overwhelmed by the sheer number of unlocks and additions in the game. I can't imagine trying out modern TF2 with absolutely no experience with the game.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:44 PM   #44
JBski
 
 
 
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Games which do not have difficulty levels tend to scale much better later in the game. Rather than just making you take more damage, while giving you less ammo with more enemies which are tougher (Fallout 4, and other FPS's suffer from this to varying degrees, even my beloved OG Doom) They make what you need to do more complicated by layering what you've progressively learned and making you do that more or faster, like the Grand Theft Auto series. The difficulty doesn't change, you are made to do more, as its assumed that you are now capable, through experience.

Of course, when I started gaming, crippling difficulty was a crutch to lengthen games, as "story" was basically a written story, and "length" was "Whelp, I'm out of lives, guess I have to restart..."

Catering to the non-players ruins the games, imho.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:22 PM   #45
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catering to non-players is what has brought gaming into the mainstream. You don't really have a leg to stand on by arguing that any video game should be impossible for some people to get into, let alone this one which is literally designed to be a suitable Baby's First Shooter™.

The best games will be accessible for newer players while having a reasonable difficulty curve and lots of depth for more dedicated/better players to explore. TF2 has the depth, but it's almost accidental at this point given how much valve has screwed with it since release.
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