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Old 12-23-2014, 10:09 PM   #1
Craylash
 
 
 
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The Tide Turner nerf is far too harsh.

Under the recent compound backlash that Valve went through after the End of the Line update, I honestly cannot blame them for hastily assembling anything that would resemble new content, regardless of a new mode, unfinished in beta, or even if that new grenade launcher’s model was sitting around in the workshop for at least a year. (Regardless of which, it is still a very pretty launcher.) Among the crowd pleasing game changes, there will be an inevitable trampling of a subset of players who are complained about.

I represent the entirety of that subset. Or at least the people around me have de-facto made me that role.

Do I think this update was a saving face to redeem what faith may remain in Valve after the cut of Snowplow? Perhaps. The content is mostly good, but among the lists of changes I cannot agree with the depletion of a charge on the Tide Turner. I saw it coming. I knew it was TOO good; The chain charge nerf was somewhat a compromise, but the slowdown is just downright heinous.

To Valve (‘s Testers?): Did you test the results, or at least asked the opinion of someone who played demoknight enthusiastically in the game before releasing that patch? ANY bit of damage that touches me during a charge turns the ground under my legs into quick dry cement. Each mini sentry, each long range pistol pelt, every heavy pretending to be a sniper on the other side of the map will prevent me from even fathom using my charge to run away. Is the Demoknight supposed to simply accept being destroyed? Who am I going to kill with this weapon? Am I suddenly subject to super secret picks where nobody is supposed to see them? Is this the start of a Demoninja sub-subclass? If so please give me more ninjas abilities Valve.

If I honestly had to have a nerf, I would just keep the chain kill nerf. Restricting the Knight to the Claid or the Booties is a choice move, because it still gives somewhat viability to the other melees. It’s.. not a very pretty nerf, But you will always know that one knight who is chain killing will always be skirting on 160hp, or at a solid 200hp as a berserker.

That’s a good enough compromise for me. If you absolutely have to have it your way, please include a sliding threshold on the slowdown. Right now it’s simply unplayable. It’s like everyone has Natascha vision that only works on you. I honestly hope this is a classic case of some coder wanting to go home at the end of the day which results in a rushed patch job. I get it. I have a job, I’m an adult myself. We all want to go home after a long day of work and do nothing with our lives, so please let it be that case.

I'm welcome to hear any opposing views, as long as you present yourself in an eloquent manner.

Last edited by Craylash: 12-24-2014 at 12:05 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:13 PM   #2
Fozzlm
 
 
 
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Although I'm not much one for demoknighting myself, you raise incredibly valid points and I stand behind them whole-heartedly.

I do hope that valve listens.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:13 PM   #3
Jigglypuff
 
 
 
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couldn't agree more, this is the worst case of appeasing the newbies since the axtinguisher nerf. I suggest you post this on reddit and scud with a link to your youtube videos to prove you know what youre doing, the word needs to be spread around.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:13 PM   #4
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Shield charge being destroyed by taking damage either needs to be removed or the damage threshold before it stops your charge needs to be increased greatly. Basically taking any form of damage, even a god damn Short Circuit, is like getting hit by natasha.

Reducing the shield gain to 75% and restricting those insane charge chains to Claid or Booties was enough.

Last edited by Teamfortressguy: 12-23-2014 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:19 PM   #5
Craylash
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamfortressguy View Post
Shield charge being destroyed by taking damage either needs to be removed or the damage threshold before it stops your charge needs to be increased greatly. Basically taking any form of damage, even a god damn Short Circuit, is like getting hit by natasha.

Reducing the shield gain to 75% and restricting those insane charge chains to Claid or Booties was enough.
Fire makes me slower. Usually when fire touches me I want to get the hell out of of there. Now it's like I melt.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:22 PM   #6
DarkwarriorJ
 
 
 
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Cannonknight is almost a full thing, so I agree that that last bit of a nerf should be changed. If Valve would remove that last little nerf with the charge being canceled by damage, the thing would be mostly balanced, and all would be right with demoman (save for his other 2 shields and a small change necessary to the Scottish Resistance, both not covered by the update.

In the next update, I'd dream for Valve reviving another one of the subclasses you pioneered - the rocketknight. Simply return the begger's bazooka's overload jumping, and then tack on a "while loading: one rocket automatically detonates for every 40HP lost and no enemy damage falloff" kind of thing. This current nerf on the tide turner put on a tweaked begger's bazooka would see a rocketknight that can be countered out of the air - no longer is death from above inevitable.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:23 PM   #7
zamorashi
 
 
 
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The little time I played of Demoknight (Speaking as a Demoman main), I found myself bored from always being shot down in the middle of my charge, and never have I once seen a demoknight dominate a server.

Have I seen a Huo-Long Heavy dominate a server? Heck yes. A w+m1 pyro? Still a plague. A demoknight, however, in my eyes, is either sombody who gets those few great picks and people want to target before he gets in range... Or he falls pathetically and people laugh at how terrible of a sub-class he is.

I agree with the charge % nerfs and buffs, they were very well thought out, and give tide turner knights a reason to wear the booties... But who is going to wear any of it if they can't take an inch towards or away from the enemy without being gunned down on the spot with no charge (the main reason for replacing your sticky launcher), and no hope, since, as you said, even a pistol (or ESPECIALLY a mini-sentry) can stop you near instantly?
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:33 PM   #8
Jigglypuff
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zamorashi View Post
The little time I played of Demoknight (Speaking as a Demoman main), I found myself bored from always being shot down in the middle of my charge, and never have I once seen a demoknight dominate a server.

Have I seen a Huo-Long Heavy dominate a server? Heck yes. A w+m1 pyro? Still a plague. A demoknight, however, in my eyes, is either sombody who gets those few great picks and people want to target before he gets in range... Or he falls pathetically and people laugh at how terrible of a sub-class he is.

I agree with the charge % nerfs and buffs, they were very well thought out, and give tide turner knights a reason to wear the booties... But who is going to wear any of it if they can't take an inch towards or away from the enemy without being gunned down on the spot with no charge (the main reason for replacing your sticky launcher), and no hope, since, as you said, even a pistol (or ESPECIALLY a mini-sentry) can stop you near instantly?
I would be fine with it, booties are always going to be garbage but the claid was best sword anyway, the only time I switched off the claid is if the team was stacked in my favor to the point where I felt like the eyelander would be helpful.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:35 PM   #9
Craylash
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkwarriorJ View Post
Cannonknight is almost a full thing, so I agree that that last bit of a nerf should be changed. If Valve would remove that last little nerf with the charge being canceled by damage, the thing would be mostly balanced, and all would be right with demoman (save for his other 2 shields and a small change necessary to the Scottish Resistance, both not covered by the update.

In the next update, I'd dream for Valve reviving another one of the subclasses you pioneered - the rocketknight. Simply return the begger's bazooka's overload jumping, and then tack on a "while loading: one rocket automatically detonates for every 40HP lost and no enemy damage falloff" kind of thing. This current nerf on the tide turner put on a tweaked begger's bazooka would see a rocketknight that can be countered out of the air - no longer is death from above inevitable.
If they made the rockets do less damage as you misfired. So two or three misfires may require a finishing melee strike

hire me, valve
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:38 PM   #10
Cronieock
 
 
 
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Suffering fall damage while charging depletes the meter entirely.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:40 PM   #11
Teamfortressguy
 
 
 
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I just had FALL DAMAGE completely stop one of my charges. That's very concerning for some trimping areas.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:47 PM   #12
Captain Blades
 
 
 
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And craylash, to elaborate on what i meant in the other thread, i agree with you, the nerf was far too harsh.

My stance on this is that yes, the turner needed something to check it's power, but this nerf wasn't it.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:49 PM   #13
Craylash
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Captain Blades View Post
And craylash, to elaborate on what i meant in the other thread, i agree with you, the nerf was far too harsh.

My stance on this is that yes, the turner needed something to check it's power, but this nerf wasn't it.
You made it seem like I exclusively play hopscotch on lazypurple servers
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:56 PM   #14
doctorriddles
 
 
 
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I despised the Tide Turner when I started seeing it in use. I hated how all it took was a simple guess-charge around a corner to lop off almost anyone's head. If you're right, glad - you kill a guy, get free charge/head. If you're wrong, oh - no worries, rebuild charge to try again. Seems pyro and heavy were the only relatively safe counters.

But what they've done to the TT is just too much. I was expecting resistance removal, and the recharge nerf was fine but damage reducing charge time just makes it parallel to the Backscatter, where the upside is almost exclusive to catching the enemy off-guard. But that's OK, we're giving spy's job to everyone else anyway.
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Old 12-23-2014, 11:00 PM   #15
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Haha, Valve's testers. I needed a good laugh.
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