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Old 01-08-2017, 02:53 AM   #16
Captain Blades
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Sud View Post
Was it this game? If so that one was really strange and ended really weirdly as well. This one was matchmade as doxed's 6 group of pink/purple badges against a 6 group of all red badges. On top of it, they got a couple random red badges as well (I believe total red count on that team was 8). I was added on as a random red badge on doxed's team, and I think I was the only red badge on our team.
Ar, no, not that one. Badwater, a few days ago, you played razorback sleeper sniper until about last where you went engie and then heavy at the end. like I said, drug-induced spy me forgot my damage revolver and how you can't stab the razorback that well, and so I decided to spend most of the round messing with your team and running around in circles.

That twitch footage has got to be once-a-century fortune of the matchmaker having teams of all the same color coin, and that color being red.
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Old 01-08-2017, 02:57 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Timerlane View Post
Maybe an Invite Scout main could destroy a server singlehandedly, on a decent map(at least until someone manages to put up a Sentry in a relevant spot), but anyone else is either going to drop from attrition or simply be unable to do enough damage to be relevant, and it's still pretty much just newbies vs 'regulars'.
And don't forget, even the best player will eventually die to a shot he would have easily survived but it was a random crit.

Because random crits clearly had to be left in matchmaking to make it more balanced and motivating.

As far as Sud's theory goes, XP or level can not be the factor. I am under the impression that they do not have any sort of matchmaking algorithm in place, at all. But as i said, if there is one, it most definately is not XP or level.

In Europe there are some well known pubstomping friends lists, there is one made up of 4 or 5 Level 150 guys constantly destroying Barnblitz pubs, every single day they queue up together and there never, ever, ever are 4 or 5 Level 150 guys in the enemy team, too. It's usually those 4 or 5 Level 150 guys ending up with Godlike killstreaks as Demo/Medic or even Heavy while the enemy team ends up being at least 4 players down and the 8 guys on the team are Level 1 to Level 20 players with something like 3 kills and 25 deaths, each.

They do not even use the simplest matchmaking rules like queuing a group of 5 friends against a team that also has a group of 5 friends. Everything is just random.
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Old 01-08-2017, 03:06 AM   #18
d4m0
 
 
 
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tfw steel heavies call themselves decent

but yeah if it really does work like you're saying it does, that kinda sucks. It doesn't really correlate with my experience which was as I 'leveled up' I noticed more and more players with higher level badges in my games, but I don't pub much so you probably know more about it
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Old 01-08-2017, 06:23 AM   #19
Sud
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Captain Blades View Post
Ar, no, not that one. Badwater, a few days ago, you played razorback sleeper sniper until about last where you went engie and then heavy at the end. like I said, drug-induced spy me forgot my damage revolver and how you can't stab the razorback that well, and so I decided to spend most of the round messing with your team and running around in circles.
I would love to see drugged out spy POV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontango
As far as Sud's theory goes, XP or level can not be the factor. I am under the impression that they do not have any sort of matchmaking algorithm in place, at all. But as i said, if there is one, it most definately is not XP or level.
It's pretty much irrefutable, considering the source of the quote is Valve itself, it was in the patch notes, and it's archived in the notes on teamfortress.com . So unless you want to suggest that Valve botched the deployment and it's nonfunctional due to them not testing it, it is indeed a thing.

The more questionable part though is in the wording. Experience could mean experience points (they continue past 150), badge level, or even more external data like hours played. The wording also confirms that there always was a system in place, just that it was less aggressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mo
tfw steel heavies call themselves decent

but yeah if it really does work like you're saying it does, that kinda sucks. It doesn't really correlate with my experience which was as I 'leveled up' I noticed more and more players with higher level badges in my games, but I don't pub much so you probably know more about it
Hey yo, of 6700 hours played only 800 are in heavy. If I had my way I'd be playing medic full time but heavy is something people don't want to play and consequently don't tend to do very well as so I end up in the slot.

I'm not sure if the higher badges you were seeing were from matchmaking or just a product of people leveling up at the time, since when I was leveling I sort of kept pace with roto (west coast guy) and his group of friends that all leveled with each other, so it might have been in that case that it was matching me vs him for MM reasons, or it just could have been coincidence that they were just queuing at the same time and were similar level.

What I have noticed myself and see happening to higher badge streamers that I watch is that they are getting longer random queues, and the thing I notice most of all is that there are usually a lot of compatible players searching who are in "limbo". In our area, it's usually around 40ish people that show as compatible. All speculation here, but I'm thinking that is matchmaking holding back some people, because I never used to see compatible people sitting around waiting before Valve released that update.

I'd also like to put the idea out there that being experienced may also tends to increase your chance of being put into a game in progress to replace a ragequit slot. It seems like Valve logic since someone raged out of a losing game to put a high performing player in to try to even it out - sort of along the same logic the autobalancer used.

I'll try to gather more evidence next time I can get some euros together since I'm feeling like there might be consistency testing it from that angle. At least, from my inability to play with them on my main account.
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Old 01-08-2017, 06:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontango View Post
As far as Sud's theory goes, XP or level can not be the factor. I am under the impression that they do not have any sort of matchmaking algorithm in place, at all. But as i said, if there is one, it most definately is not XP or level.
I've read that it indeed does match players based on XP, but supposedly the algorithm is more along the lines of "if red medal player in BLU then put red medal player in RED" rather than some kind of proper XP distribution (e.g. both teams get roughly the same total XP).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontango View Post
In Europe there are some well known pubstomping friends lists, there is one made up of 4 or 5 Level 150 guys constantly destroying Barnblitz pubs, every single day they queue up together and there never, ever, ever are 4 or 5 Level 150 guys in the enemy team, too.

They do not even use the simplest matchmaking rules like queuing a group of 5 friends against a team that also has a group of 5 friends. Everything is just random.
I play with a group of friends (3-6 people) several times a week, and in my experience we get matched against other premades more often than I do when I play solo. Obviously it's hard to say for sure as I'm mostly going off clan tags and players with similar level medals, as well as increasingly longer queue times in group vs solo, but that's the impression that I have gotten over the past month or two.

Those premade vs premade games happen to be some of the best ones, as they feel like a coordinated 6v6 with the twist of both teams having a handful of extra players (that, in true TF2 pub fashion, may or may not be useful).

Granted, the games where we don't face a premade tend to become steamrolls, but that's what happens when the matchmaker puts the entire group on the same team. A simple "we would like to be split between the teams" checkbox in the group menu would've gone a long way towards fixing that, potentially reducing queue times to boot.
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:15 AM   #21
Loose Cannon
 
 
 
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I haven't been having this issue with the matchmaker.

...

Oh.
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Old 01-08-2017, 03:23 PM   #22
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If this is accurate, my theory is that it can't find another veteran to pair you up with so it compensates by creating a match that's like:

"Veteran + 11 noobs" vs. "12 decent players"

Obviously this is an exaggeration, but the point is it counterbalances you with several "worse than the game's average player" players, which ends up being a raw deal for you.
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:07 PM   #23
TMNWG
 
 
 
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Maybe they should have a voluntary handicap system so everyone can play on an even field.
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:30 AM   #24
Mogh
 
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I don't know, in my experience it seems to be primarily region differences that cause the ridiculously long queue times. When I play solo I find a game pretty quickly, and also if I play with one or two friends who are also from Europe, even if their levels are far off from mine. But when I queue up with two American friends of mine we sit there waiting for ten minutes, fifteen, twenty without finding a game. Though if I queue up with just one of them matchmaking is much faster again, it seems to only really become a problem for groups of three or more.

Whatever the exact cause, Valve needs to fix this, and fast. My friends are on the verge of quitting TF2 altogether, and I'm sure they're not the only ones. Having to wait almost half an hour to get into a server is just not worth it, even with the new system which allows one to keep playing after the map ends. (Assuming the next map isn't terrible, and assuming the server doesn't die out..)
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Old 01-09-2017, 03:25 AM   #25
TMNWG
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Mogh View Post
I don't know, in my experience it seems to be primarily region differences that cause the ridiculously long queue times. When I play solo I find a game pretty quickly, and also if I play with one or two friends who are also from Europe, even if their levels are far off from mine. But when I queue up with two American friends of mine we sit there waiting for ten minutes, fifteen, twenty without finding a game. Though if I queue up with just one of them matchmaking is much faster again, it seems to only really become a problem for groups of three or more.

Whatever the exact cause, Valve needs to fix this, and fast. My friends are on the verge of quitting TF2 altogether, and I'm sure they're not the only ones. Having to wait almost half an hour to get into a server is just not worth it, even with the new system which allows one to keep playing after the map ends. (Assuming the next map isn't terrible, and assuming the server doesn't die out..)
That's not even taking into account joining for the final stats screen, I bet. And even if you remain in the server, half or more of the rest of it leaves anyway, with barely any backfills.
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Old 01-09-2017, 05:07 AM   #26
Mogh
 
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Originally Posted by TMNWG View Post
That's not even taking into account joining for the final stats screen, I bet. And even if you remain in the server, half or more of the rest of it leaves anyway, with barely any backfills.
Yeah, indeed. Imagine waiting twenty two minutes to find a match only to join as the game is about to end or indeed has just actually ended, just in time to see two thirds of the server leave and the map change to one you didn't even include in your map list.
I really can't blame my friends for giving up on this game. I'd do the same if I wasn't so far in (spent so much time and money on it), and/or if my computer could run Overwatch..
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:52 AM   #27
TuxedoRex
 
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Originally Posted by MrRandom View Post
If this is accurate, my theory is that it can't find another veteran to pair you up with so it compensates by creating a match that's like:

"Veteran + 11 noobs" vs. "12 decent players"

Obviously this is an exaggeration, but the point is it counterbalances you with several "worse than the game's average player" players, which ends up being a raw deal for you.
I posted this in another thread, but I want to say it here as well. In all my playing, I've not seen this pattern at all. Often, the highest level on the server will be on the team with the fewest light-blue players, but generally it's a complicated mix of badge-colors that don't present any consistent pattern from game to game.
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Old 01-10-2017, 03:56 PM   #28
JBski
 
 
 
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A hard class limit of 2 per a given class would go a long way to fixing "casual" imho.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:44 PM   #29
Sud
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRandom View Post
If this is accurate, my theory is that it can't find another veteran to pair you up with so it compensates by creating a match that's like:

"Veteran + 11 noobs" vs. "12 decent players"

Obviously this is an exaggeration, but the point is it counterbalances you with several "worse than the game's average player" players, which ends up being a raw deal for you.
TBH it's not really an exaggeration at all, because it absolutely has the potential to happen, the thing that is variable is the frequency.

Games like that are crazy unfair, and you can see the badge imbalance on the score screen. Myself as a red and a blue with 9 whites vs a mixup of 6 colors and 5 whites. I remember I was pretty much forced to play spy to get anything productive done as I was getting absolutely swarmed on the front line.

Also goes to show you badge color isn't really a good indication of skill, our blue guy wasn't getting much of anything done, and the enemy's top score was a white.

I don't know why people think elo is a bad thing for casual, it would be far better for categorization purposes that people be weighted on their overall ability rather than sheer number of games played. I mean, is this not the definition of a one sided match, and matchmaking went ahead and made it anyhow?
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:27 PM   #30
___
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by d4m0 View Post
tfw steel heavies call themselves decent

but yeah if it really does work like you're saying it does, that kinda sucks. It doesn't really correlate with my experience which was as I 'leveled up' I noticed more and more players with higher level badges in my games, but I don't pub much so you probably know more about it
to be fair steel is better than almost everyone you'll ever find playing casual, so i mean it kind of is
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