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Old 01-10-2017, 06:50 PM   #196
TailsTheeFox
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by majer63 View Post
This is a good change I think. Makes the Heavy require a bit more skill, and gives him more midrange capabilities. I don't think this should affect really close range fights much, as the spread shouldn't be too much at near point blank ranges?



Not too sure about this one. While damage should probably be lowered to keep the Heavy from doing too much damage at mid/long ranges if the tightening of spread is implemented, I still think Heavies should be able to do a good amount of damage. Also, if you lower the damage, it will affect his mid range capabilities. Simply put, I can't see lowering damage helping his mid range capabilities while hurting his close range capabilities. As long as the minigun has some spread, close range will always be very deadly.
Hypothetically we can make whatever balance changes we want at the moment, making his close and mid range DMG very close in numbers is not out of the realm of possibility-nerfing his close and long distance DMG easy.

Nerfing DMG is a simple thought process, at the moment it is obnoxious so you can't ignore the Heavy at all, the goal is to make him tankier so nerfing his DMG should go hand in hand otherwise it's a flat buff.


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Originally Posted by majer63 View Post
While this does seem nice, is buffing the Heavies movement speed the right way to go about helping him? I was under the idea the Heavy was supposed to be a slow but powerful class, who once he showed up to the fight, could make a large difference. Of course, it's really annoying to run at this speed, but by increasing his base speed you make it so he can get to places much faster, and I think this will change the flow of the game. Moreover, this will have the effect of making teleporters not as useful.
Although you talk more about this below let me address the worry towards flow and teleports, both good points to worry about.
A new Heavy that can reliably get to a fight faster everytime is a bit frightening to think about, even considering that he will still be the one to show up last to first points due to rocket/sticky jumping. But, a Heavy's weakness shouldn't be "he showed up late so everyone's dead", but instead "the fight has already started but he can make a difference". It's a point more focused on the Heavy player Gving more fun and getting to fight more, while the additional change of longer switch to speed and rev up means that the Heavy player can't be just walking around with a free speed boost not ready at all for a fight, giving him a weakness that forces the player to think about positioning and think about when to access their mobility... Not as skill indexed as Rocket Jumping but it's a bit more thought than nothing.

I personally don't believe teleporters will be less useful.


[QUOTE=majer63;36310669] I do like the change of making the minigun take longer to rev up but less time to rev down. This helps him get out of the way of incoming rockets faster, and also lets him switch to a shotgun if necessary. Moreover, it adds more importance for the heavy to start revving up in advance, and allows him to be ambushed for a greater effect, making the shotgun useful for traveling from place to place.[QUOTE]Changes to faster passive speed with minigun put away go hand in hand with this.



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Originally Posted by majer63 View Post
I know you put a lot of thought into this, but I just really can't get behind the rage bar idea. Simply put, it IS a "press button for buffs" button with no downside. While it does require you to to participate and do damage/receive damage, this probably falls under arguments made against the half zatoichi, where you could take advantage of bad players to fill the bar and then use your buffs to take out the better players.
Abuse cases seem to be easily remedied by it requiring a large amount of requirements toward filling it up, the DMG needing to be taken and dealt to fill up the bar to 75% could easily become very tedious for just one player to abuse it intentionally or just by being a moron. There will always be abuse cases, and easily abused things are something to worry about! But if the threshold for it is high enough along with the fact that it'll decay on it's own outside of combat... I don't feel too worried.



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Originally Posted by majer63 View Post
To put into better words why I'm against this, it has to do with the "actions" in a game. Game's have two kinds of actions: operative actions and resultant actions. Operative actions are the base actions a player can take, such as shooting, jumping, or moving. Resultant actions are meaningful in the larger picture of the game, and have to do with how the player is using operative actions to achieve a goal.

Resultant actions are the subtle interactions within a game, and are more actions and strategies that emerge naturally as a game is played. Most game designers agree that interesting emergent actions are part of good game design. Moreover, the ratio between operative actions and resultant actions helps to measure how good a game is, with a small number of operative actions but a large number of resultant actions being generally being very good.

The problem I have with your idea, is that it is simply adding in an operative action, instead of reworking things to get more resultant actions out of the current operative actions players can take. Moreover, this operative action simply changes numbers, specifically resistant numbers. There is no downside to using the rage bar, which isn't fair as all of a sudden, players can be punished for their teammates actions, of which they have no control over. Moreover, it creates a form of a positive feedback loop, where good heavies can get more damage and kills in, and then use the rage bar for an easier time getting kills.

In the case of the Soldier and Demoman, their sticky jumping and rocket jumping are more forms of resultant actions, and take advantage of already existing actions, namely jumping, moving, and shooting. By taking advantage of the way knockback from explosions work, those two classes can propel themselves at great speeds and to great heights. An important part of this however, is doing this is not a class specific ability. Other classes can also rocket and sticky jump by using enemy projectiles. The only reason it's easier for these two classes to do it is they can use their own projectiles, as opposed to relying on enemy projectiles. They do not have a "press button to rocket/sticky jump" form of ability, but must use their own skill to take advantage of the game's mechanics to achieve this.

I'm not too sure if it is possible to give the Heavy something similar where he can take advantage of the game's mechanics, but this is my argument for why I'm against your idea of the rage bar.
A smartly worded arguement and one worth bringing up, thinking up a skill indexed new mechanic for Heavy, while not changing the very core of the class OR making the new mechanic extremely complicated WHILE ALSO making it unique is a beyond difficult task that I wouldn't want to force and to anyon even, because no I've seen not a single soul do as you describe. The rage bar I'm suggesting has checks and balances designed into it to put a healthy playstyle of constantly fighting, weaving in and out to keep the rage bar rising...

It solves a bunch of Heavy's issues and give him a new mechanic to play around with-Medic has a more easily charged and powerful ability that doesn't decay and is insta charged in preparation before the match starts, just for an unfair and twisted comparison to make my idea shine a bit brighter.

Jokes aside, rocket jumping is a good comparison but not perfect, I would enjoy an idea like that for Heavy, but other classes don't have that(Sniper with HEADSHOTS and charging up shots, Spy with his cloak, Pyro with his airblast, Engi with his buildings, Medic and his Uber) so it's not required, as long as it's done well.

Quote:
(and yes, I am using fancy language and terminology for my argument. If you disagree with the resultant and operative action stuff, and game designers agreeing on the stuff about it, you'd have to take it up with my game studies book, I'm just repeating what's in there, although I generally do agree with it)
Hey, flaunt your knowledge all you want mate, I enjoy it, all the discussion here is very valid and enjoyable.



Quote:
I see your point their, and from what you're saying here, I'm willing to change my mind and say buffing his speed probably could be a good idea. Of course, I think proper testing would need to be done to make sure of this, as well as to balance the numbers, but you do have a point that this could help make him better in higher skilled environments. Although, I'm not too sure about having different revved up speeds when not firing as opposed to firing.
The different revved up speeds when firing and not firing is a small buff to the Heavy, and is mainly something that I believe would just FEEL better for the Heavy player. From the topic I stole it from it was positively received but it could be removed easily, just a small idea that sounds good on paper.




Quote:
This is another thing I'm against, While I do see your point, I would prefer that ammo packs only give ammo, and health packs only give health. This makes much more sense, and it's how it works for the other classes (except for that one sword of the Demoman's I believe). Moreover, the ammo packs already give an established amount of ammo, with the large one restoring all ammo. Changing how this works just feels wrong to me, although that could very well be a very subjective opinion of mine. Although, I do feel that if Heavies want to sustain their health, they should require the use of medics or the health packs around on the maps.
-proceeds to read more about the ammo idea-
I see your argument here, and I do think it would give him something to think about, but I'm still not sure about the idea. Although it sounds like it could make for some interesting gameplay changes, I'm still not sure I like the idea of ammo packs giving health. (If Valve would implement this in a Beta version and it turned out to work out really well, I'd be willing to ignore the part of me that's against this though. I'm not so stubborn as to say no to such an idea even if it does end up working really well)
Putting ideas into practice would really be something else, but at the moment I just have my words.

Heavy's cannot typically rely on health packs to sustain themselves, this is due to map design, faster classes getting to them first, and health packs typically being more useful to the other classes. These are some of the reasons why the Heavy packs a lunchbox item, and even then they can't rely on that and just sit on a payload/dispenser/medic. Ammo packs giving less ammo and instead a little bit of health is also a way to nerf a few things... Namely sitting on the Dispencer and Payload-you get less ammo and no extra health. Furthermore it forces movement and allows the Heavy to roam and not be stuck on relying entirely on a medic.
There's numerous little things that can be done to balance this better if it's an issue(how much health you get, making it not remove afterburn, etc).

Quote:
To at least contribute an alternative to the rage bar, what about have two separate "modes" for the Heavy to fight in? The first would be how he currently is, with the same damage and everything. The second would be to give him much more resistance (like your rage bar idea giving resistance), but the heavy also fires much slower. This would give him offensive power for killing things with the first mode, and a more tanky role where he can soak up damage for the team to push through with the second mode. He would be able to switch between these modes at will (although only while revved down), so he has options to choose which one is required, but must live with the consequences while revved up.
This is press a button for stays, the very thing you were complaining about! It's be difficult to display visually two different modes on the Heavy, as well as balance, and in this aspect of having two different power budgets tagged along I can see just one mode being used while the other is completely ignored! Why go a little tanky if you can just damage while you're semi-tanky? Because you're in a situation where you're trying to flee from everyone as the slowed class in the game, or just jumping on last to buy time..?
Why go damage if you can be really tanky? To jump rev around the corner and cheese kill someone-or to just get Kritz and suddenly be a deathbeam..?

If expanded on it can be a better idea, but it seems to be rather flawed with how you're presenting it, I can go into more detail of you want but this is my initial reaction.

Quote:
Lastly, what if the Heavy had a passive effect where sentry guns always targeted him if he's in range (or in the case there's multiple heavies, target the closest one)? This would kind of go along with the idea of him taking hits for the team, and would make it easier for teammates to get in and take out sentry guns. Moreover, this would give people an option for taking out a huge sentry farm, as an übered heavy could attract all the attention, letting the rest of the team actually kill them. To go along with this, he could suffer less knockback from sentries to actually let him accomplish this, but I'm not quite sure about that one. (The second mode I talked about would also really help with doing this job, as he can tank the hits with the damage resistance and let the team do the damage for him)
Enginerd's Sentrygun's targeting system is already exploitable, and the interaction between Engi and Heavy does not warrent a change like this-Engi already faces difficulties from Demo, Soldier, Spy, and Medic, adding Heavy to that list has little reason...
Sure it buffs Heavy for attacking, but it nerfs Engi, by a fair amount, and just seems like an unfair change.

Especially in higher skilled environments.


Anyways, I apologize if there's any issues with my wording or if I'm unclear about something, I made this on my phone over the course of multiple bus rides-but I wanted to get this response out to you eventually!

Seriously though thank you, I appreciate the time you spent forming the post, and I'm going to go back and review the op, format and space it better for easier reading(again), and see if there's some improvements I can make here and there... Based on the feedback given to me.


-


Everyone else thanks for posting too. :P

Last edited by TailsTheeFox: 01-10-2017 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:04 PM   #197
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So the Heavy's Love and War nerf with the Rev up having a one second ramp up on damage and accuracy.

How about for starters it is just accuracy ramp up, and not damage.

Because while I get that spining up a Minigun would result in loss of accuracy(because big gun and you need to steady it a bit), the damage I do not.

Bullet is bullet. simple as that.


Movement addition by switching from the minigun to the other stuff for the Heavy is good, and since it is sacrificing the awesome of the minigun for the shotguns or the melee, that makes it balanced when compared to the Soldier and Demoman blast jumping.

Concerning RAGE mode for the readability, what about a Overheal like thing(meaning you can see something come off the Heavy) with RAGE faces on shields, and maybe in the TF2 Source 2 build minigun specific RAGE effects?

I wrote about it, shields and first stage the disapproval face for low RAGE, the second stage a angry frown, the third stage(the active RAGE mode) RAGE face.

Any thoughts on the LMG ideas?

Anyway keep up the good work everyone.

Last edited by IvanR1314: 01-11-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:33 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
So the Heavy's Love and War nerf with the Rev up having a one second ramp up on damage and accuracy.

How about for starters it is just accuracy ramp up, and not damage.

Because while I get that spining up a Minigun would result in loss of accuracy(because big gun and you need to steady it a bit), the damage I do not.
How about just remove it entirely because it's an unfun mechanic in the first place? It's not stated to be a mechanic anywhere but a single patch note, it's hard to notice when you're against Heavy or even as Heavy(though it does effect your gameplay consistently in every encounter)....
It just needlessly nerfs the Heavy at the start of a fight, and accuracy penalties themselves are stupid in the first place, especially on a gun that spits a stream of bullets.

There is zero reason to keep it around.

Quote:
Movement addition by switching from the minigun to the other stuff for the Heavy is good, and since it is sacrificing the awesome of the minigun for the shotguns or the melee, that makes it balanced when compared to the Soldier and Demoman blast jumping.
Only when you add in the bit about slower switch to speed and rev up speed honestly.

Quote:
Concerning RAGE mode for the readability, what about a Overheal like thing(meaning you can see something come off the Heavy) with RAGE faces on shields, and maybe in the TF2 Source 2 build minigun specific RAGE effects?
That is either too subtle or too cluttered and ugly, it may even clash with existing effects like the Vacc or just regular old overheal. So no.


Quote:
Any thoughts on the LMG ideas?
I'd rather not put much of any thought into the idea due to focusing on the base class and the current weapons he holds onto, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel a second time in conjunction with the rest of the rework...
All at once.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:36 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by TailsTheeFox View Post
How about just remove it entirely because it's an unfun mechanic in the first place? It's not stated to be a mechanic anywhere but a single patch note, it's hard to notice when you're against Heavy or even as Heavy(though it does effect your gameplay consistently in every encounter)....
It just needlessly nerfs the Heavy at the start of a fight, and accuracy penalties themselves are stupid in the first place, especially on a gun that spits a stream of bullets.

There is zero reason to keep it around.
I get it, but again, Bullet is bullet. Accuracy nerf, is for steadying your aim with a minigun, so you might have some mess up with accuracy.

And it is just for the accuracy, close range you would be more of a shotgun then a minigun. After the wind up happens. Maybe put that Wind up thing on a chalkboard?

Quote:
Only when you add in the bit about slower switch to speed and rev up speed honestly.
Still a pretty good idea though.

Quote:
That is either too subtle or too cluttered and ugly, it may even clash with existing effects like the Vacc or just regular old overheal. So no.
Props to you for the RAGE resist being a ability charged in a combat active way. Really like that, and it would help Heavy stay alive longer.

Vacc shield is above the Heavy, as well as a Marked for Death thing.

Anyway the RAGE effects thing would be Team coloured shields with faces Overheal style, but a bit bigger then Overheal stuff.

Would that work?

Also RAGE specific stuff for the miniguns, yes or no? Probably not in Source 1 TF2, but what about Source 2?


Quote:
I'd rather not put much of any thought into the idea due to focusing on the base class and the current weapons he holds onto, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel a second time in conjunction with the rest of the rework...
All at once.
Well the LMG stuff might be better for a separate thread actually.

Anyway.

Keep on brainstorming, you wonderful RnD colleague of mine.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:33 PM   #200
___
 
 
 
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the logical spin up penalty is obviously fire speed

this is immediately noticeable and makes contextual sense
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:01 PM   #201
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I don't believe that effect to show off the rage effect would be very good, I think words don't really describe it very well and it's something that would need to be drawn a few times to figure out something that can actually work well...

I'll get to drawing with my friends to try and figure something out, because it is a big issue.

Also...

RnD...?

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Originally Posted by ___ View Post
the logical spin up penalty is obviously fire speed

this is immediately noticeable and makes contextual sense
Out of the three-Accuracy, Dmg, and Fire Speed, yes, this is the best of the three, but it's not really needed at all.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:33 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by ___ View Post
the logical spin up penalty is obviously fire speed

this is immediately noticeable and makes contextual sense
Yeah. This could create the same dps ramp-up while being really intuitive. They should do this.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:28 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by TailsTheeFox View Post
RnD
IIRC it's short for Research And Development.
Although, I would have used R&D.
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:23 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by TailsTheeFox View Post
I don't believe that effect to show off the rage effect would be very good, I think words don't really describe it very well and it's something that would need to be drawn a few times to figure out something that can actually work well...

I'll get to drawing with my friends to try and figure something out, because it is a big issue.

I wrote this earlier int the thread. when I thoguht that a Vacc shield like thing(above the head) would work for the RAGE mode. Now it is for Overheal like stuff.

START QUOTE.
for the RAGE mode, maybe the Uber charge flicker with the Vacc shield and a thing above the Heavy?

Non revved and low RAGE Team colored shield with the Dissapoval face ಠ_ಠ


and revved up something like the team coloured shield and the angry face >8( or the > : (


And finally team colored shield with the RAGE face with red/blu colour when RAGE is active. D8<

Would this work for readability?
END QUOTE.

So would this work as a team colored Overheal like effect on Heavy's RAGE?




Quote:
Also...

RnD...?
Research aNd Development, RnD for short, and there is also the R&D shortened term for it.


Quote:
Out of the three-Accuracy, Dmg, and Fire Speed, yes, this is the best of the three, but it's not really needed at all.
So maybe accuracy and fire speed, if we must pick something out of the 3 stuff

although fire speed is the revv up mechanic already in the game.

Still accuracy only wind up might be the only thing needed.

Last edited by IvanR1314: 01-12-2017 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:08 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
I wrote this earlier int the thread. when I thoguht that a Vacc shield like thing(above the head) would work for the RAGE mode. Now it is for Overheal like stuff.

START QUOTE.
for the RAGE mode, maybe the Uber charge flicker with the Vacc shield and a thing above the Heavy?

Non revved and low RAGE Team colored shield with the Dissapoval face ಠ_ಠ


and revved up something like the team coloured shield and the angry face >8( or the > : (


And finally team colored shield with the RAGE face with red/blu colour when RAGE is active. D8<

Would this work for readability?
END QUOTE.
That sounds terrible, it sounds ugly to look at, and would really clash with what the art style of the game. Furthermore it's a constant needless clutter...




Quote:
So maybe accuracy and fire speed, if we must pick something out of the 3 stuff

Still accuracy only wind up might be the only thing needed.
No, the Nerf should be completely removed, you can't play around it(aside from shooting at a wall before hand before slowly crawling out from a corner revved up), it's not very engaging, and it's completely pointless for the Heavy to be NERFED like this... Or at all.
Current Heavy doesn't need this pointless hidden NERF, and the rework I've been proposing is made with the nerf just not existing.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:26 PM   #206
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I think the dps ramp-up is really good. It's one of the few things about heavy requiring a little thought, and it meshes well with the idea that heavy is supposed to be a powerhouse when committed but vulnerable when surprised. I like the effect it has on how I play heavy.

I don't know if people just don't remember the days of overpowered heavy or what, but it was really miserable when a heavy could just jump-rev a corner and almost instantly put massive pressure on a whole area.

The only thing bad about the dps ramp-up is how it's practically a secret. Change it from raw damage to rate of fire and it becomes perfectly natural and intuitive.
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:42 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by TuxedoRex View Post
The only thing bad about the dps ramp-up is how it's practically a secret. Change it from raw damage to rate of fire and it becomes perfectly natural and intuitive.
It's completely unintuitive until they swap the ramps; damage from time spent firing to time spent revved(faster barrelspin, more boolet), and accuracy from time spent revved to time spent firing(think of a garden hose with a trigger nozzle/pressure washer/etc, and think of how there's a jerk whenever you start 'firing', but after taking a moment to brace yourself against the water's continuous 'thrust', you can now start to walk the stream exactly you want it).

An electric-spun Gatling gun will not spin any faster as a result of rounds being fired through it(hence more damage not making any sense), and if Heavy is strong enough to heft the 150kg Minigun around like it's nothing, I doubt anything but shooting it(or being shot) would do anything to seriously mess with his aim.

Switching fire rate for the damage ramp would be 'ideal', but I just suspect Valve didn't want to put the extra work in for what would probably be of little actual value; you'd save only a tiny amount of ammo each time, and the Minigun is already pretty abstract as it is, essentially being a 4-pellet, 10 shells/sec, clipless full-auto shotgun that only has '200 ammo'.

Last edited by Timerlane: 01-12-2017 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:50 PM   #208
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I think any player would be able to tell from the sound that firing starts a little slow then gets going faster. The current situation of actual damage increasing is something I wouldn't even know about if I hadn't read people talking about it.

Realism is immaterial, as you seem to say yourself at the end of your post? Forgive me if I've misread your intent. My main point is that a rate of fire ramp-up would be easily "readable" for the user in game, where the damage ramp-up is harder to grasp.
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:59 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by TuxedoRex View Post
I think any player would be able to tell from the sound that firing starts a little slow then gets going faster. The current situation of actual damage increasing is something I wouldn't even know about if I hadn't read people talking about it.

Realism is immaterial, as you seem to say yourself at the end of your post? Forgive me if I've misread your intent. My main point is that a rate of fire ramp-up would be easily "readable" for the user in game, where the damage ramp-up is harder to grasp.
The point is that it's the other way around, right now.

Currently, if you stop firing, without unrevving, for even a split second, your damage drops to the minimum. That makes absolutely no sense(and encourages wasting ammo).

Currently, your Minigun spread control depends on how long you've been sitting there revved, regardless of whether you've been firing or not. That only makes sense if the rotational energy of the barrel motor is somehow more disruptive to Heavy's aim than anything else, including actually shooting.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:13 PM   #210
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I really don't feel realism is important enough, so I'm not going to address that.

"Wasting" ammo to reach full damage doesn't seem any worse to me than a soldier wasting ammo to rocket jump or a pyro wasting ammo to extinguish a burning teammate. The point is you have to try to foresee the need and commit to firing if you want to do good damage instead of just hop-revving everywhere and melting anyone who can't kill you or escape before you're spun.
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