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Old 10-02-2016, 10:03 PM   #1
TailsTheeFox
 
 
 
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A Proper Rework for Heavy

Effectively this is an attempt to create the rework/gameplay update that Heavy will get in the future.
The entire goal of this is to help improve the Heavy in TF2 and make him more useful, not to buff him to be overwhelmingly strong, nor to nerf him into the gutter like Demoknight.

It's to balance him out, make him have a clear role designed towards tanking dmg, making him less overbearing in public games with new players, and more effective in higher skilled environments.

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The Goal:
To move Heavy more towards a tanking role. This is indeed the main goal of this rework, to make Heavy less about instantly shredding someone at point blank and to make him more about trying being able to take a hit.

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Base Heavy Changes:
First off, the LaW nerf given to Heavy is removed entirely. The nerf was already pointless and just a bad, hidden design choice hastily added in that nerfed an already weak class, but added onto some of these other changes it'd be downright silly.


The Minigun has a tighter spread and is more accurate. Bullets accuracy is great at close-medium range but is still just as bad at long range.You have to do more than aim in someone's general direction to hit them. And it is now easier to hit someone midrange, however you still can't snipe people from a distance.


Heavy's minigun's dmg is lowered. Think along the lines of Natascha level of dmg, perhaps even lower. Long distance dmg is much much lower, but midrange dmg is still nice. The intent here is to, well, lower Heavy's dmg but still make him still a threat, I'm not much of a numbers guy but I believe these is the right path. But my goal here is to really lower close range dmg, almost remove long range dmg, and make mid range fighting where Heavy wants his foe to be.

With the two above changes it's to help make his fighting be more focused on midrange fights where he has a chance to unrev and dodge rockets if need be, it's still the Heavy so he can fight at close range, but long distance combat should be completely pushed away from his mind.



Overall, the Heavy's movement speed is bumped up 85%(which is 5% more than a Soldier) when a secondary or melee is out, otherwise movement speed remains 77% with a Minigun out.

Added in after but worth considering: I came across the idea put forth by KingOfTeam, to functionally make the Heavy a bit more mobile:
When revved up you're still slowed as per usual, but instead of the full slowed speed you're brought down to... It's instead 57%.
But when you're firing it drops down to the normal movement speed reduction.
This could help the Heavy feel a bit better to play while making his reduced mobility less intense.

Both of the other classes below 100% Movement Speed have advanced forms of movement in the form of Rocket Jumping, Sticky Jumping, and Shield Charging that not only allow the two classes to get to places faster, but to cover terrain the Heavy could only wish to cover. Bumping up the speed of Heavy when he doesn't have his primary out is more than fair, as long as it's reasonable and in the context of these other changes.

It takes longer to swap to the minigun, and to rev up, but unreving and swapping out to a secondary or melee is shortened. These changes make a bit more sense below with the introduction of the rage bar.



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New mechanics added:


The rage bar:

Rage bar: The Heavy has a flat 5-10% dmg resist at all times that becomes 20% when fully revved up. Doing dmg and taking dmg fills up your rage bar, with doing dmg filling it up faster than taking dmg. When at 50% or above rage, press the reload key(default is R) to gain 50(?)% dmg resist for a short period of time.
After the bar is drained you are unable to gain any rage for a short period of time. Possibly four seconds or so?
When out of combat for a period of time, your rage bar naturally starts to decay.

The rage bar dmg resist however does not effect Headshots, Backstabs, and Afterburn. A backstab or a fully charged headshot should be a kill on a non-ubered Heavy. Afterburn is already bad enough. x__x
Furthermore it's worth considering to have afterburn not make the Heavy's rage bar increase.


Numbers are not exact but this still preserves the key points I want the rage bar to have-it's not a high number without building it up first. Heavy isn't given higher tank stats without having his minigun revved(so shotgun Heavy isn't the clear best choice in basically every situation because he'd be faster and tankier), and he has the high moment of power focused around having a max rage bar.
I also made it to where you can activate it earlier than at 100%, though 50% seems too light a number and perhaps 75% or 60% would be better-it has it's trade offs(less time with max resist) and it allows Heavy to not be heavily restricted.
Opinions about this? There's still the issue of how to portray the rage bar being activated but it's much easier with just one clear high moment instead of three different levels of resist to keep in mind.

Seriously, the rage bar dmg resist however does not effect Headshots, Backstabs, and Afterburn. A backstab or a fully charged headshot should be a kill on a non-ubered Heavy. Afterburn is already bad enough in the first place so there's no need to make it effected by this Heavy change. This is very imporant for the balance of Spy, Heavy, Sniper, and Pyro and helps make the Heavy have weaknesses and quick ways to take him down despite his tankiness.


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Ammo health: The Second change to Heavy is the change to how ammo interacts with the Heavy... All collected ammo is halved in what they give you. However, all ammo picked up will heal you. For small ammo this health is 10, medium packs it's 25, and for large it's 40. The intent of this is to help make the Heavy capable of sustaining in battle by running over the bodies of fallen foes, and allies. The value of health actually goes up for Heavy due to his rage bar, so while 10, 25, and 40 seem small, it really adds up. Of course like I said earlier, I'm not really the best for exact numbers so just consider this a basic idea of what could work, numbers could be easily changed and balanced properly.
Concerning dispensers and payload carts, they do not give more health to the heavy, but they still give less ammo.
This seems like a good way to nerf the Heavy just sitting on a dispenser/payload and just firing away.



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PRIMARY UNLOCKS
First thoughts going in

Now the biggest issue with Heavy currently is that there's little to him, and this reflects plain as day onto his unlocks, as there's nothing very unique about them and the changes between each one are just about... Nonexistent. This is terrible considering that Heavy is the class that suffers the worst with his primary unlocks, and I see it coming from a lack of direction and focus.

They're not their own weapons, they're gimmicky unlocks-not taken far enough to be interesting.

They each have somewhat of an identity though.

Brass Beast - Defense
Natascha - Support
Tomislav - Flanking/Aggressive
Huo-Long - Aggressive/Lotsa'fire

But that identity is not taken far enough to make it a proper deviation from stock, they need interesting and fun mechanics to help separate them from each other, and not just "which unlock is currently unbalanced and is better than the others".

Another thing is they should all be slightly subtly changed in rev up and rev down times... Among other things, this is so the weapons FEEL different in just about every way, so you can have a personal preference on which unlock you like the most. But not in such a drastic way so one is flat out better than the others.

Hell half a second of change on things can really effect you... But this is a sidenote and not really something to worry about.


Anyways, without further ado, let's get my suggestions for the primary's underway!

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Tomislav and the Huo-Long
Because they're both the more aggressively inclined miniguns I figured they'd be the best to start on first, and to group them together would help make the goals for them a bit more clear.

But first let's start with the Tomislav.

Now you may be thinking, the entire rework was intending to make the Heavy focused more on tanking dmg and not really dishing it out as hard, so how can the Tomi fit with this change?

Well simple, let's see what we should keep about the tomi's upsides..

Silent rev up is what really puts the Tomi down as the "wait behind a corner and get the jump on someone" kind of minigun. And quicker rev up speed helps enforce the fact that you should and can be more aggressive with the minigun.
So let's roll with that.

+Silent Rev up
+Quicker Rev up

But that's boring to just do that, lets come up with some more changes to really put down what this minigun should be used for.

Perhaps a damage bonus when you get the drop on someone is the right way to go!

Tomislav
+Silent Spinup
+Quicker Rev
+If above 100 ammo, do bonus dmg
+Burst of movement speed on kill or assist

-25% less ammo(total of 150)
-less dmg if below 100 ammo
-less % resist when revved and from Rage Mode
-faster rage bar drain

Whenever you take dmg, you take only 60% of it initially, and the remaining 40% after a few seconds of delay, hurting an enemy will "heal" back the dmg taken.

It was a little difficult to figure out an upside that would make the Heavy stronger at the start of a fight and capitalize on making him worse in extended encounters, everything else I came up with was extremely exploitable or needlessly complicated.

Ammo is everywhere of course, but with the Heavy already getting reduced ammo from all sources this will keep this in check I believe.
He's also less tanky all around if he's just playing passive/sitting on a dispenser/payload and firing at a distance. Couple this with the Bloodborne inspired bleed mechanic and the burst of speed on kill/assist, he's encouraged to be much more aggressive and get the quick drop on foes.

I think it may be too strong though, I would love a second opinion about it.

For the dmg delay, if he gets bursted down to 0(say he has 100 health and he takes a 100 health headshot) he cannot fight to get the 40 health back, he just dies on the spot.
I'm also thinking you fill the rage bar up faster via dmg, and less when taking dmg(basically to where taking dmg gives you basically none of your rage bar filled).

The dmg delay mechanic and even the burst of speed mechanic could be just simply removed, I just felt like they were interesting concepts that could be potentially explored for the unlock.

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Huo-Long
To be honest, I love the Huo-Long, it's my favorite minigun! It's design is awesome, the concept behind it is great... So I'll be the first to tell you that it's very underwhelming. The main issue is the constant ring of fire, instead of being a "BACK OFF" kind of deal, it's more so a.. "stay away" kind of mechanic that just makes things difficult for spies and scouts. So it used to be basically a straight upgrade when sitting by a dispenser, or on a payload.

So, Valve made the change to have bonus dmg on foes on fire, which is a nice step in the right direction, but it's just very impractical and bad, because if you're sitting close enough to set someone on fire and shoot them.. They're basically dead anyways if you had stock.

So let's move the ring of fire and put it on the rage mechanic!

Huo-Long Heater
+less movement speed penalty when firing
+repeatedly hitting the same target increases your dmg towards them

-more ammo costs the longer spent revved
-less % resist when revved
-longer time to unrev

Costing 30% of your rage bar, when you press R(reload) let loose a ring of fire that extends out, doing dmg and setting foes alight. For a brief moment your firing speed is increased and you get a bonus to your resists.

The goal of it is to give the Heavy more dmg, but gating it behind something-focus fire is what I went for here. Dipping out of the Heavy's line of sight, or the Heavy switching targets will dip his dmg considerably, and the longer time spent revved the more the Heavy burns through his ammo, so he can't just stay revved forever and has to back off himself lest he runs dry.

The ring of fire can be buffed on damage now that it's not constantly running, as well as the distance it goes out, and as a plus it's a clear indication that the Heavy is using his rage bar! I'm a bit iffy on the bonusses given upon use, but wanted to go with something that you could notice(more bullets being spat out) instead of just a bonus to damage.


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Alright so those are some of my initial ideas for these two minigun unlocks, I tried to go for some interesting mechanics and unique things but I'm still a little unsure about the whole thing and would love to have some feedback on this all.

Like or dislike the changes I've put forth? Have some ideas of your own? Let me know below! All feedback is welcome and encouraged.


I think two at a time is better than doing all of them at once.
Also I've been trying to make colors and formatting look nice, I don't like a huge wall of white text to read, y'know?


-

So did you like any of this?Does this sound like a good idea to you? Do you just oppose change and never want things to be improved? Let me know down below, I personally think I have these ideas well thought out and would like to hear of any way to improve it! Please, any discussion is great, and I enjoy it.


(old idea of the) Rage bar: The main new mechanic added onto Heavy that dictates a lot of the balance so far is the addition of a rage bar that fills up based on dmg dealt and dmg taken. As this bar fills up, the Heavy gains more dmg resistance, and this dmg resistance is doubled when fully revved up.
"Why a bonus dmg resistance when revved up? Why not just all the time?"
This is to help create windows of power, to create highs and lows. If it was say just a flat 35% all of the time when the rage bar is maxed out, it's just a thing that happens and there's no oomph behind it, atop of that there's no time to strike and no thinking behind it, just a bonus 35% resist for doing what you're supposed to do.
When in contrast we could have it be... 15-20% unrevved, and 40-45% when revved, giving you the chance to think about whether you want to just try to tank through the fight with your 45%, or try to just flee. For the person fighting the Heavy it's always clear that when unrevved the Heavy is at his weakest and that's when you should strike.

A heavy caught unprepared should be one that's punished.

The rage bar dmg resist however does not effect Headshots, Backstabs, and Afterburn. A backstab or a fully charged headshot should be a kill on a non-ubered Heavy. Afterburn is already bad enough. x__x

Worth of note for the rage bar is that doing dmg fills up the bar more than taking dmg. I'm still on the fence if kills and assists should contribute to the rage bar.
A visual indicator for a full rage bar could be heat radiating off of the minigun, like it's steaming almost? This effecct could also just be coming off of the Heavy himself as well. A uber-like glow could also work, but may conflict with the visual indicator that the uber glow brings(immunity to dmg).

Last edited by TailsTheeFox: 01-11-2017 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Fixed some wording and formatting, making it easier to read
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Old 10-03-2016, 12:16 AM   #2
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Neat.
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Old 10-03-2016, 01:44 AM   #3
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I dunno. It seems like these changes are a bit too unintuitive, at least concerning the ammopack thing. I just prefer the stock to offer no-nonsense ammo, though it sounds like a plausible idea to peg onto an unlock.

I always liked the rage bar from mvm, and I wish they'd map it to the reload key by default. I think it ought to just be damage output based to mitigate griefing and exploit potential. I like the rage bar itself could offer different effects based on minigun. I might not go with that particular effect for natascha, but I completely agree that there should be something more interesting for heavies other than opening the bullet hose.

I personally like the sentiment behind the LaW rev changes, but I think there need to be some more tweaks. The heavy shouldn't be able to run around and rev up with impunity, but as is feels a bit too awkward. I think that the penalty should not include damage, but spread alone, and maybe fine tune the cone to end up narrower than as is, possibly by simply narrowing it overall.

One thing that I always wished they would add to the heavy as a small quality of life addition is knockback immunity while revved and crouched. I don't even know how it improves quality of life, I just think it strange how useless crouching while revved is outside of dodging snipers.

I like your concepts, though I am unsure about some of the specific details.
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Old 10-03-2016, 02:33 AM   #4
IvanR1314
 
 
 
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Increased movement speed while your minigun is in the weapon storage module is one way of getting good mobility. and encourages having a shotgun in your slot. FoS Heavies, anyone?

Also Machete Heavies run faster with their knife out. /reference to a joke


Ammo thing is interesting. I do not know if that is good thing. Also maybe keep the dispencer thing as is, because the Dispencer and payload dispencers have both ammo and heals, sot he division is not needed.


No1
Yes for the knockback immunity while revved and crouched. I mean , with the minigun Heavy has his bulk and the 150kg of machine guns, and you tell me that he can still be knocked around?

Does the Crouched thing mean with the minigun or overall?


overall pretty good suggestions everyone.




i kind of had an idea that Heavy melee kills increase his speed, but it is grind a lishios , bazaar Bargain thing, but the speed gain is around 3 or 5%, something that encourages melee finishers, but not melee out all teh damn time.

And minigun stuff applies, as in miniguns slow you down. So for speed and ranged damage, you need to have a shotgun.


does the Heavy need a slot for his sandvich and such? I mean, I do suggest slot 7 for the utility items for all the classes, but not individual classes.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:33 AM   #5
Pick up thatcan
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
does the Heavy need a slot for his sandvich and such? I mean, I do suggest slot 7 for the utility items for all the classes, but not individual classes.
just stop

With OP's suggestion Heavy can just grab ammo box anyway.
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Old 10-03-2016, 06:31 AM   #6
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Trying to decide if this will fix one of heavy's problems, which I feel is the main reason Heavy keeps getting hit with nerfs.

Currently as it stands, heavy's just not fun for the most part.

- Not fun to watch
- Not fun to play
- Not fun to play against

If you don't believe me, go watch a Heavy vs Heavy MGE for an hour or two and tell me how exciting it was.

It's mainly due to how simplistic his play style is. He's pretty much all about positioning, playing around his team and holding the crosshair over his intended victims while holding down the M1 button with his minigun. Outside of his health, he really doesn't really do anything interesting and when he gets buffed too much the games start spiraling into who can out the most heavies in order to win games. This became factually apparently when they first released the Tomislav so many years ago and Tomislav/Sandvich/GRU heavies dominated matches. This was probably one of Heavy's most powerful moments in Team Fortress 2's life span.

In my eyes, in order for him to get excepted. The changes needed to heavy have to make him more exciting to play/play against. To do that, you have to make the heavy be effective, but require more effort at least to pull off feats while still maintaining what he is capable over to start off.

If they can pull that off, then they can go from there to properly buff or nerf him where he needs it.
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Old 10-03-2016, 09:02 AM   #7
TailsTheeFox
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N01 View Post
I always liked the rage bar from mvm, and I wish they'd map it to the reload key by default. I think it ought to just be damage output based to mitigate griefing and exploit potential. I like the rage bar itself could offer different effects based on minigun. I might not go with that particular effect for natascha, but I completely agree that there should be something more interesting for heavies other than opening the bullet hose.
Taking dmg should fill up a little bit, say for example you do 100 dmg, and 70 of that dmg fills up your bar a little. And then you take 100 dmg, well only 20 of that dmg fills up your bar.
I think something like that could work well.
The Natascha one is just an example of what could be done with the rage bar to help make all the other unlocks feel different.

Quote:
I personally like the sentiment behind the LaW rev changes, but I think there need to be some more tweaks. The heavy shouldn't be able to run around and rev up with impunity, but as is feels a bit too awkward. I think that the penalty should not include damage, but spread alone, and maybe fine tune the cone to end up narrower than as is, possibly by simply narrowing it overall.
The LaW nerf is completely unneeded as I've proposed that with this Heavy his rev time takes longer, and he does less dmg overall. If it still would be needed then making it just effect accuracy, making it a tighter spread the more you fire, would be the right away to go.

Quote:
One thing that I always wished they would add to the heavy as a small quality of life addition is knockback immunity while revved and crouched. I don't even know how it improves quality of life, I just think it strange how useless crouching while revved is outside of dodging snipers.
An interesting buff can be done with crouching and firing, for sure. I don't think making it to where you're suddenly a sentrygun is the right way to go but seeing a high knockback reduction would be fine.
Something cooler could actually be put there.

Quote:
I like your concepts, though I am unsure about some of the specific details.
Well thank you for your input about the matter either way, I'm glad you like the ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
Increased movement speed while your minigun is in the weapon storage module is one way of getting good mobility. and encourages having a shotgun in your slot. FoS Heavies, anyone?
The longer switch to time to the minigun, and the longer rev time, also are intent to make you want to equip a shotgun. People enjoy shotgun Heavy. Though, this is also why he doesn't get the full dmg resist unless rev.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
Ammo thing is interesting. I do not know if that is good thing. Also maybe keep the dispencer thing as is, because the Dispencer and payload dispencers have both ammo and heals, sot he division is not needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N01 View Post
I dunno. It seems like these changes are a bit too unintuitive, at least concerning the ammopack thing. I just prefer the stock to offer no-nonsense ammo, though it sounds like a plausible idea to peg onto an unlock.
Why the Ammo thing on stock?
Heavy is required to have a medic shoved up his butt at all times, he's slow, and has no form of jumping around, reflecting, sneaking, or sitting from a distance. The intent is to give Heavy some form of sustain.
"But why mess with how much ammo is given then?"
The other intent of this change is to force the Heavy to move, force him to collect ammo, because while you can still have a Medic and a payload cart, you're going to run out of ammo still. Ammo is literally everywhere, but you're forced to go and collect it.
This rewards a Heavy player on the move, and will punish one just sitting on the cart or dispenser firing endlessly.




Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
overall pretty good suggestions everyone.
Thank you. And thank you for your input.



Quote:
i kind of had an idea that Heavy melee kills increase his speed, but it is grind a lishios , bazaar Bargain thing, but the speed gain is around 3 or 5%, something that encourages melee finishers, but not melee out all teh damn time.
Snowball on kill weapons do not work out very well, especially pertaining to melee, also Heavy getting faster but a large margin like that is not good or healthy considering the intent is to make him tankier, and if you mean an unlock for current Heavy then it's even worse considering his minigun is a deathbeam and the only thing weighing him down is well... His weight.

Quote:
does the Heavy need a slot for his sandvich and such? I mean, I do suggest slot 7 for the utility items for all the classes, but not individual classes.
No. All items that are contested for should be balanced properly to be equally viable, and if not viable all of the time, make them have a specific niche that you want to fill that can be potently useful.
In this rework, all that would be needed would be a small buff to the chocalate bar, a nerf to sandvich(when eating it makes the your rage bar start to drain faster, and you have no dmg ressit while eating), and a small rework of Family Biz and BSS.
Just making it a utility bonus is unhealthy and lazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralKitsune View Post
Trying to decide if this will fix one of heavy's problems, which I feel is the main reason Heavy keeps getting hit with nerfs.

Currently as it stands, heavy's just not fun for the most part.

- Not fun to watch
- Not fun to play
- Not fun to play against

If you don't believe me, go watch a Heavy vs Heavy MGE for an hour or two and tell me how exciting it was.

It's mainly due to how simplistic his play style is. He's pretty much all about positioning, playing around his team and holding the crosshair over his intended victims while holding down the M1 button with his minigun. Outside of his health, he really doesn't really do anything interesting and when he gets buffed too much the games start spiraling into who can out the most heavies in order to win games. This became factually apparently when they first released the Tomislav so many years ago and Tomislav/Sandvich/GRU heavies dominated matches. This was probably one of Heavy's most powerful moments in Team Fortress 2's life span.

In my eyes, in order for him to get excepted. The changes needed to heavy have to make him more exciting to play/play against. To do that, you have to make the heavy be effective, but require more effort at least to pull off feats while still maintaining what he is capable over to start off.

If they can pull that off, then they can go from there to properly buff or nerf him where he needs it.
The big thing about Heavy currently is he's unhealthy and a class of extremes, so I agree with you entirely.

I think it does make him more fun to play and to fight, of course he'll never be as flashy or viable in every situation as Scout, Soldier, or Demo, but making him healthier and able to function in more situations is the right step in making him better to play and perhaps better to play against.

A mecchanic like the one added to Natascha allows him to make "plays" even if they're seemingly simple.

I mean if you have any ideas on how to make Heavy able to make plays without changing his core, feel free to speak up, as that was no my goal here. The R button is completely unused as Heavy, as is Special Attack(mouse 3), and crouching and shooting. So there's of course more room to add on.
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:11 AM   #8
IvanR1314
 
 
 
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For the Brass beast and Natasha Resistances, what about making it 50% HP is automatic activation of it, but you can press "R" to manually activate it when revved up?


When I said Bazar Bargain thing for Speed, I meant it like 8 kills max. and kills offer 3 or 5% increase in speed, hence the grind.

You still move slow as a snail with miniguns so shotguns are encouraged.

you know what would fit Heavy, A Shotgun thing in style of the Blackbox 20HP on hit. And I posted some Heavy WG workshop items to look at in the Heavy subforum, one is a Heavy sized revolver(which I propose is a shotgun slug shooter and kills give you small Health packs, press mouse 3 to throw the Health packs.).


I also suggested Light Machine Guns, which are kind of like the Tomislav(rev up wise, both speed and silence) but also offer a increase in base movement. But not 4 shots per ammo point and you have to reload it. 800 ammo total and divided by 200 ammo magazine.


I kind of have the same idea(Melee kills as a class passive ability for the Scout, and these things are something I had in mind: fall damage is a crouch thing and the shove(tweaked) is a mouse 3 thing) for the Scout, HP related, and much simpler 5 HP per melee kill 8 or 10 max.


Heavy has 77% move speed, right? Couple that with the proposed "switched from the Minigun offers more speed" 85% speed when switched from Minigun in fact, and my Need for Speed melee kills idea is a interesting collection of attributes.


And couple that with the LMG offer base speed increase, but less DPS, you get a Heavy with more options.


Also a Riot Shield and Heavy baton combo would be a neat melee to have. And the Alt fire on the shotgun and melee would bring up the shield.


The shield would act like a metal based permanent overheal. Replenish it with metal from ammo packs and dispencers. And the Razorback when not in use, as in on your back and you need to be backstabbed twice, is in effect. Baton is a speed on hit thing.


^ this riot shield and baton and the switched from minigun speed increase idea, means a good Heavy riot Man(n) class.

Edit.

The Rage suggestion is a base game but new Heavy attribute, right?

And the MvM upgrade offers knockback on hit, yes?

Last edited by IvanR1314: 10-04-2016 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:48 AM   #9
IvanR1314
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Pick up thatcan View Post
just stop

With OP's suggestion Heavy can just grab ammo box anyway.


What about slot 7 is a MvM upgrade for all classes? is that fair and balanced?
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:26 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
What about slot 7 is a MvM upgrade for all classes? is that fair and balanced?
MvM is easy enough already.
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Old 10-04-2016, 12:30 PM   #11
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Could someone give me a short-list of differences between this thread's proposal and the previous thread: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=3304276

thanks in advance
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
I also suggested Light Machine Guns, which are kind of like the Tomislav(rev up wise, both speed and silence) but also offer a increase in base movement. But not 4 shots per ammo point and you have to reload it. 800 ammo total and divided by 200 ammo magazine.
An LMG, if done correctly, could potentially be an interesting alternate-play mechanic for the heavy akin to gunslinger engineer, huntsman sniping, demoknight, or dead ringer spy, in that it would give a more-aggressive approach to a class that traditionally relies on a more thought-out approach to gameplay (and by thought out, I mean that where a soldier is combat-ready at all times to react to an incidental situation immediately by firing a rocket at either the enemy or his feet, a stock engineer has to build up a sentry in a good spot in order to be effective, and heavy needs to rev up at the appropriate time to attack).

I'd say, though, that IF they implement an LMG, it would probably be something along the lines of having minuscule rev time, a box magazine of maybe 40-100 rounds, 200 reserve, and an uncomfortably long reload time of a few seconds. It would also likely have a lower damage-per ammo than any other minigun, a much tighter cone of fire, and possibly even concentrate all of the damage into a single shot rather than spread it over several bullets as in the other miniguns. While it sounds like a completely broken CoD run-and-gun automatic weapon, it's important to keep in mind that it's still equipped to the noticeably slowest class in the game. Whereas the counterplay for most classes against a typical heavy involves catching him spun-down, the counterplay against this weapon would involve outlasting the bullet spray and ganking him while he reloads.

That all said, I'm actually skeptical of whether an LMG would actually work in the game, and there are a few integral mechanics to tf2 that would likely make it a total mess. The very first problem we run into is reloading itself: Every weapon currently in the game is capable of canceling its reload animation if there are still rounds in the magazine. This could create issues with the balance being contingent upon the long reload time being counterpart to rev up time if the magazine has enough to mow down several enemies and it is inconsequential to reload at half-full. The second issue encountered is move speed and deployment: basically, whether or not firing affects movement speed. It probably ought to have some minor reduction in move speed and remove the ability to jump while firing, similar to how the huntsman has a smaller reduction than the rifles. Finally, it seems like no matter how you cut it, it's going to be horrendous to balance up against the miniguns, since it has to be powerful enough to at least stack up against them without being a 1v1 monster that basically only loses out to a random crit from the enemy to counter the high hp, high dps, and little revving to contend with. It would likely hunt pyros into extinction, as it both would outright murder pyros in virtually every encounter, and encroach significantly on the already suffocating pyro combative role. With an LMG, it would become highly unlikely that pyros would ever serve any purpose outside attending engineer nests.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
Also a Riot Shield and Heavy baton combo would be a neat melee to have. And the Alt fire on the shotgun and melee would bring up the shield.


The shield would act like a metal based permanent overheal. Replenish it with metal from ammo packs and dispencers. And the Razorback when not in use, as in on your back and you need to be backstabbed twice, is in effect. Baton is a speed on hit thing.

If a shield were to be added, it would be in the secondary slot or as a melee. Adding a new slot is and always will be a no-go, excepting for special game modes that rely on tools like canteens and grapples. Given the shield is "consumable", it's more likely that it would replace the shotgun, and even if it were a melee it should not be useable with secondary.

Shields in shooters seem to really be hit or miss. The inherent problem with them is that they need to provide damage immunity, while still being defeat-able. It create a thin line where one step over in a certain direction turns it into a broken tank that frustrates every enemy you face as it becomes a difficult diversion from combat, and a step in the other direction turns it into a completely useless piece of trash that creates more vulnerabilities than it removes. I don't play overwatch, but it looks like the Reinhardt shield only manages to work because it also protects teammates, it has a large surface area that makes it difficult to attack or outmaneuver head on, but there is enough of an opening from the sides and top to reward people who find a way around it.

Arguably the only reason the razorback "works" (for lack of a better term) is because it serves as an "anti-shield" that only protects against flank attacks and leaves the user much more vulnerable to any direct attack.

I think if we are talking about a realistically proportioned riot shield, it would be quickly discarded into the trolling weapon pile. It would only be useful at all against sentry guns and snipers. Soldiers and demos would be able to hit with splash damage from behind. Scouts, spies, and pyros would likely be able to get around the shield, and until they fix flame particles, it's very likely that it would be broken against flame particles that manage to go through or around the shield. Depending on what it takes to take down the shield, a heavy vs shield matchup would probably be awful.

So, overall, I think that an LMG is a step in the right direction as far as concepts for alternate heavy primary playstyles, but a broken concept that will end up on par with the initial stats for the liberty launcher in terms of being a crutch for 1v1 that makes you suck at team v team fights. Or it would be as broken as the original tomislav.

I think the riot shield is one of those ideas that sounds sexy simply because it exists in real life and a few military shooters, but ultimately would not work well in tf2 because of how the mechanics work. It would be too effective against 1 or 2 classes, and practically antithetical when used against the rest.
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Old 10-05-2016, 02:38 AM   #13
IvanR1314
 
 
 
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How would the LMG work?

Miniguns have 4 shots per ammo point, which means 800 actual ammo. I suggest 800 ammo total for the LMG and bullet is base damage of the minigun divided by 4 to get the stock damage of LMG.

Magazien is 200 LMG damage ammo and 600 reserve, total of 800 ammo. 1 ammo is one shot, not 1 ammo is 4 shots of the minigun.


Think of the LMGs like the CS:GO LMG, but since it is for the Heavy the speed is not that much lower.


LMG works like the tomislav, as in faster rev up and silent rev up, plus added base speed increase and decrease in DPS and the addition of reloading for a Primary.




And yes you can interupt the reload, but the reload is faking long. About 4 shotgun shells, if you cannot interrupt the reload to get the ammo.




Riot Shield with Baton if it is a melee item. If there was a slot for equipment items, that would mean riot shields for the equipment slots.


The alternate fire on the shotgun and the melee is bringing the shield up.


The Shield has 150 Shield HP, regained with metal from ammo and dispencers.


You are kind of revved up as in slowed when you use the shield though. on the bright side, you have 300 and 150 shield HP and the overheal HP.

When not in use the Shield acts like a Razorback, as in blocks a backstab, along with the 150 Shield HP protecting your back.


to explain it a bit, when not in use, you have 150 HP from the back and backstab resist, and when active 150 HP from the front and slower move speed.


can also be combed with the LMG, but not miniguns.



Baton offers speed on hit, so there is that.



to explain it a bit more, the alt fire means you bring the shield up and can use the shotgun, melee and LMGs primary. Hell for the LMG alt fire that is both a rev up and shield up.




Hell even a Assault rifle secondary would work with this. Damage is between the Pistol and the Sniper rifle.

Last edited by IvanR1314: 10-05-2016 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 10-05-2016, 02:45 AM   #14
IvanR1314
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoRex View Post
Could someone give me a short-list of differences between this thread's proposal and the previous thread: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=3304276

thanks in advance

thread topic bump?
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Old 10-05-2016, 04:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoRex View Post
Could someone give me a short-list of differences between this thread's proposal and the previous thread: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=3304276

thanks in advance
The list is: Proper formatting, better explanations, more details on everything, better balancing for the mechanics, and a demonstration how all these new balance levers could be applied to one of the Heavy's unlocks.

It's the same ideas, just better thought out and explained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanR1314 View Post
-snip-
Nerfing the dmg, forcing long reloads, and shorting the amount of time the class can keep someone suppressed while giving more accuracy and almost no rev time does the exact opposite of making the Heavy more aggressive, it actually would make the class even more defensively played.
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