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Old 01-06-2017, 10:16 PM   #1
Sud
 
 
 
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Under the current system of casual matchmaking, you are punished for being "too good"

So, you guys may or may not have caught me talking about this in other threads, but this was in one of the Valve update notes awhile back:

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Originally Posted by Valve
Casual matches now more strongly prefer to distribute players to teams based on experience, in order to better avoid creating one-sided matches.
A lot of people still are under the assumption that XP is cosmetic, when, in fact, it very much isn't.

I managed to do a slightly more involved test of the system today, attempting to queue up with two belgian players (I'm west coast canada).

Getting into a game with friends has been difficult lately, and I wanted to rule out ping as a factor so we all set our max ping limits to 200-250 (this would match us in virginia, mainly), but the biggest issue I had been having is actually getting into a game with them. 20 minutes passed, and no game. We tried tweaking maps, ping, etc. No dice.

I wanted to rule out levels, we had one guy with level 5, one in his high 30s, and me at 150. I have noticed lately even when solo queuing I tend to have to wait a pretty inordinate amount of time to get into a game as a solo queuer.

I logged in an alt account at level 2 and we queued again. We had a game within 5 minutes as a three group. Almost all the rest of the games for the session were instant queues as well.

I also noticed a huge difference in the quality of games, at least in relation to us winning. On my 150 account, I will lose 75-85% of my random solo queue games, despite usually putting in a top 3 performance. On the lv2 account, in around 10ish games played, we won all but one (a game in progress in the last couple minutes where one of the guys in our trio immediately killed a 42 killstreak heavy camping the hapless pub's spawn).

This is completely backwards to how the game should function. As it stands now, the more you progress in experience, the longer your queues and the lower quality your games will be. This is very abrasive to anyone who has put in the time to be decent at TF2, because the better you become as a player, the more games you should expect to win for your efforts. It chases off anyone who brings veterancy to TF2 (into the open arms of Overwatch), and prioritizes brain dead gibus brains into having quick queues, and if they're bad enough, teammates that are forced to carry them because they are being used as a mitigating factor against someone who is a quality player (which is harmful to their game experience especially if they aren't feeling in a team carry mood).

This is extremely poor matchmaking design, the queues should be utilizing high experience players as much as it can, as these players have a higher rarity, and putting a low priority on the low yield players (actually giving them some sort of tangible incentive to improve, in lieu of playing another round of full demoknight).

End of rant for now. Fix it Valve, I don't want to have to smurf to not wait 20 mins for a queue. Kinda defeats the purpose of buying all those stranges and hats and stuff.
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:13 PM   #2
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What? Is that so dear chieftain? I foggily remember that game i played with you on badwater a few days ago- that one didnt seem to suffer from the problems you described as much as the others? I may have been superbly high on pain meds that time though so you likely have a better reccolection of those events than me. (I still jolly well am, but at least the teeth are out.)


If what you're saying is true, then yes, i would conduct a slightly more empiricial study of these things, and present the evidence to valve either through gitub or a direct email, as they seem to be responding and paying attention lately a la the replies that got posted on reddit and facepunch.
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:48 PM   #3
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This is why I stopped playing Red Crucible 2. Once you got to be super high level you ran out of people to play against, so you couldn't find games anymore except with the same few people.
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Old 01-07-2017, 08:49 AM   #4
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I also noticed a huge difference in the quality of games, at least in relation to us winning. On my 150 account, I will lose 75-85% of my random solo queue games, despite usually putting in a top 3 performance. On the lv2 account, in around 10ish games played, we won all but one
I'm sorry, are you seriously, actually, for real, suggesting the only good games are the ones where you pubstomp?

The whole point of good matches is that you get a challenge, a chance to proof yourself. Good players stomping newbies helps nobody. Yeah yeah, "it will help newbies learn from experienced players", we've heard the argument before, and it's as untrue now as it was the first time we heard it.

A newbie isn't magically going to improve his rocket aim prediction by being blown up a thousand time. He's going to improve from playing a thousand hours, and he won't play a thousand hours if he gets destroyed everytime he walks out of spawn.

Long queue times also help nobody though, so at least I'm with you on that one. But then, it's hardly a secret that the inter-game-interval has been my main gripe with casual matchmaking from the very beginning. Or the theoretical impossibility to guarantee balanced matches, for that matter.

What can you do. The old server browser system worked fine, but whereas Valve has moved away onto a crappier system, Blizzard is actually acknowledging this and moving towards adding a server browser. With a bit of luck, Valve'll copy them in a year or so and we can go back to playing normally again without this endless queueing and "matches" nonsense.
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Old 01-07-2017, 09:49 AM   #5
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We have a server browser and we've had it for 9+ years
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:25 AM   #6
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We have a server browser and we've had it for 9+ years
But now we can't use it to go to the same servers we could before.
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Old 01-07-2017, 11:48 AM   #7
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But now we can't use it to go to the same servers we could before.
"Valve has removed their publicly accessible servers" is a better and more accurate way to describe the situation. Nothing has ever happened to the server browser and the general freedom TF2 provides much unlike Overwatch.

Five years ago, people playing on Valve servers were considered noobs by some sort of general consensus. Probably because of the crappy auto-balance, scrambles and map votes that community servers tend to turn off in favour of their own systems.

Try other servers.
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Old 01-07-2017, 12:29 PM   #8
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"Valve has removed their publicly accessible servers" is a better and more accurate way to describe the situation. Nothing has ever happened to the server browser and the general freedom TF2 provides much unlike Overwatch.

Five years ago, people playing on Valve servers were considered noobs by some sort of general consensus. Probably because of the crappy auto-balance, scrambles and map votes that community servers tend to turn off in favour of their own systems.

Try other servers.
I was merely pointing out that the resources we had at that time are not the same as the resources we have now. I'm in no way saying I disagree with it - as you seem to imply.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:42 PM   #9
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A newbie isn't magically going to improve his rocket aim prediction by being blown up a thousand time. He's going to improve from playing a thousand hours, and he won't play a thousand hours if he gets destroyed everytime he walks out of spawn.
Unfortunately, if all they're doing is asking a single high-rank player to carry an entire team of newbies against 'regular' players, that's still going to happen. One player can only do and take so much damage.

Maybe an Invite Scout main could destroy a server singlehandedly, on a decent map(at least until someone manages to put up a Sentry in a relevant spot), but anyone else is either going to drop from attrition or simply be unable to do enough damage to be relevant, and it's still pretty much just newbies vs 'regulars'.

Nobody's really benefiting.

Last edited by Timerlane: 01-07-2017 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 01-07-2017, 03:13 PM   #10
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I was merely pointing out that the resources we had at that time are not the same as the resources we have now. I'm in no way saying I disagree with it - as you seem to imply.
No, I was pointing out that it's not related to the server browser. Valve simply doesn't have public servers anymore, only matchmaking servers.

I'm not sure how Blizzard is going to handle it, whether they'll have both matchmaking and public servers. Having one and the same server be both accessible by matchmaking and public search would destroy any purpose matchmaking has so I don't think that's what's gonna happen. Personally I just want to be able to make my own server via custom servers.

I guess the joke's gonna be some time in the future they'll allow custom servers but not allow you to play offline/lan anyway. Time will tell.
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Old 01-07-2017, 03:42 PM   #11
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There's just not enough players to support everyone being matched with 11 other players of the same skill level.
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Old 01-07-2017, 04:08 PM   #12
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There's just not enough players to support everyone being matched with 11 other players of the same skill level.
That's bonkers. There are plenty of useful players, but the coin level doesnt apply to them.

The "skill rating" coin is silly, as there are a lot of people who either don't play casual, or don't bother to do anything that awards points for a quick level up, that are vastly superior at the game than say a noob who grinds mannpower maps all day for a higher level.

Case and point, visit skial badwater or a DM server. You'll find plenty of competitive players or old veterans who likely haven't touched casual all that often, which the game apparently thinks are the same level as the gibus hordes.
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Old 01-07-2017, 08:00 PM   #13
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There's just not enough players to support everyone being matched with 11 other players of the same skill level.
That's why, IMHO, the answer is simply to make sure the number of skilled players is evenly spread and present on both teams.

It's fine for newbies to play with more skilled players, just make sure that the number of potentially 'useful bodies' are relatively equal on both sides. That's how you avoid having the newbies get spawncamped, while still being exposed to more skilled players, and hopefully being somewhat inspired by seeing what 'getting better' looks like.
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Old 01-08-2017, 01:27 AM   #14
Sud
 
 
 
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What? Is that so dear chieftain? I foggily remember that game i played with you on badwater a few days ago- that one didnt seem to suffer from the problems you described as much as the others? I may have been superbly high on pain meds that time though so you likely have a better reccolection of those events than me. (I still jolly well am, but at least the teeth are out.)


If what you're saying is true, then yes, i would conduct a slightly more empiricial study of these things, and present the evidence to valve either through gitub or a direct email, as they seem to be responding and paying attention lately a la the replies that got posted on reddit and facepunch.
Was it this game? If so that one was really strange and ended really weirdly as well. This one was matchmade as doxed's 6 group of pink/purple badges against a 6 group of all red badges. On top of it, they got a couple random red badges as well (I believe total red count on that team was 8). I was added on as a random red badge on doxed's team, and I think I was the only red badge on our team.

So like, this game got flipped on its ear. Everyone on our team was expecting a roll and on D we did get rolled badly. Then, it did a complete 180, I start arguing that their medals didn't mean anything, and decide that bottom scoring as medic isn't working out so I switch over to heavy. Electrocute in doxed's group decides to pocket me and I guess they got sick of losing (I mean doxed is an ex plat sniper so it's not like there wasn't potential there all along) because things started to fall into place and we pretty decidedly slapped them around because we tied it 4-4 and I ended up having a 60 point heavy round.

But like this isn't something that happens often in pubs, it just happened we had some people that decided it was time to start trying harder. Numerically speaking though a match made 8 red badges vs 1 is so imbalanced that winning/tying should have been almost impossible. The end ended up sorta being balanced but no way anyone (or MM system) could have predicted that, that game mighta been the next Disney movie in terms of turnabouts.

Interesting game though should check it out if you like sniper POV.

Quote:
I'm sorry, are you seriously, actually, for real, suggesting the only good games are the ones where you pubstomp?

The whole point of good matches is that you get a challenge, a chance to proof yourself. Good players stomping newbies helps nobody. Yeah yeah, "it will help newbies learn from experienced players", we've heard the argument before, and it's as untrue now as it was the first time we heard it.
No, what I am suggesting that a game that is balanced ends with reasonable objective play and scores between teams that, on a curve, are not that dissimilar. There is also the expectation that burden is fairly shared between the team. For example, if badwater ends 4 captures to 0 that is a roll. If the scores, on average, on one team are double that of the other team, then that is very likely a roll. If 2 players on one team have a combined score more than that of the 10 other players, then that is not true "casual" play, that is two people being forced to carry a team (and in casual play, a player should have certain freedoms to play in a useful manner without the need to go absolutely insomnia grandfinals to have a chance at a win because the rest of the team is shuffling about uselessly).

This doesn't mean you have to absolutely segregate the good and bad players completely, quite the contrary in a casual match it's good to have some intermingling skill levels because it keeps the game from becoming formulaic, however, the average skill of the players on both teams should be as similar as possible, and the game should encourage players to improve, not discourage them by making them wait in queues, or sticking them in hopeless games.
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Old 01-08-2017, 01:45 AM   #15
MysticTheMeeM
 
 
 
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So like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sud View Post
But like
So, like, not sure if you're doing this ironically or, like, anything, but it, like, triggers me so, like, can you, like, not?

:P JkLubya
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