Long-standing Confusion Regarding VAC Bans

[Verminus]

Originally Posted by hat

Hmm, there was a time when vac bans weren't forever? Out of curiosity, my brother has an account from roughly 7 years ago and he has a VAC ban for presumably Counter-Strike. Does that old ban prevent him from playing on VAC-servers for newer games like CS:S or TF2? And if he acquires a new copy of CS1.6 (I believe he was using that old retail thing and has most likely lost the jewel case) would he banned on that?

Not thread hijacking because this is addressing confusion surrounding VAC bans. Also I'm curious because my brother was able to recover his Steam account (he recently bought a new PC after not owning one for years), and I was wondering if it would be a waste to gift him games.

When VAC was first introduced, the bans were for 1 year, then got increased to 5 years, and finally became permanent. the last of the non permanent bans expired quite some time ago so if your brother is still banned then it is permanent.

As for an old VAC ban affecting new games, don't worry it won't.

VAC used to ban by game engine and still does for Valve's games before L4D.
from the Valve Anti-Cheat System (VAC) Support FAQ

Please see the Steam Store Valve Anti Cheat Enabled search term.
Valve games

The Valve Anti-Cheat system is enabled for servers displaying the Secured shield logo. Using custom skins, sounds or maps and playing multi-player mods which do not modify core .EXE and .DLL files will not result in a VAC ban

Cheating in one of the following Source games will result in a VAC ban for all games in the list:
Counter-Strike: Source
Half-Life 2: Deathmatch
Day of Defeat: Source
Team Fortress 2

Cheating in one of the following Gold Source games will result in a VAC ban for all games in the list:
Counter-Strike
Condition Zero
Ricochet
Day of Defeat
Team Fortress Classic
Half-Life: Deathmatch
Deathmatch Classic

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2

VAC is enabled on all multiplayer servers, public and private. Any modifications to the game other than editing config files can result in a VAC ban. Examples of such modifications include but are not limited to console enablers, VAC disablers, and server hosting mods.

A VAC ban in Modern Warfare 2 only affects Modern Warfare 2

So if he was VAC banned in Counter-Strike it wont affect any source engine based games or any non Valve games.

[Karr-Man]

Originally Posted by hat

Hmm, there was a time when vac bans weren't forever? Out of curiosity, my brother has an account from roughly 7 years ago and he has a VAC ban for presumably Counter-Strike. Does that old ban prevent him from playing on VAC-servers for newer games like CS:S or TF2? And if he acquires a new copy of CS1.6 (I believe he was using that old retail thing and has most likely lost the jewel case) would he banned on that?

I think they changed to permabans in 2005 so it sounds like u could be on either a permaban or a 5 year ban depending on exactly when the ban occured.

cs1.6 bans would cover any game on that engine eg. team fortress, half-life dm (but not css tf2 etc.)

if he buys a new copy of cs1.6 he can use it on a new account but not on the same account that was banned.

[Philip Omnis]

Originally Posted by Wardiaper

Philip at least you are discussing this honestly. Nothing is solved or learned when one side or the other is not being honest.

I completely agree. But what bites me is that my actions outside of VAC has -no- relevance to this conversation as they only stand to make informed assumptions.

I think, to be honest, if there wasn't the witch-trial thing going on, people would be more honest and open about this whole business. I've not lied in this thread, I've merely withheld irrelevant information. Cheaters are seen as horrible pieces of work, and that may be the case, but condemning them does not fix the issue.

But to get back to the root of this whole thread. The idea of making information on VAC bans more accessible after say, three months, would add a vast degree of clarity for those affected as well reduce the taboo atmosphere and the idea that you cannot talk about this topic without inflammation. Also (given that I've not played CS:S in years) from what I recall, the VAC warning consisted of "You are joining a VAC-enabled game" or words to that effect whilst connecting. I think there should be an optional extra that asks you to confirm that you are ready to enter a secure game before doing so. Just little things to avoid harsh punishments for people who aren't out to ruin everybody's game.

[Satoru]

I'm still trying to find a scenario where giving out such information would be useful. Even in your entirely theoretical scenario knowing what causes the ban is still useless to users in a false positive scenario.

[Philip Omnis]

I don't quite think you understand what I mean, I certainly don't mean useful. If I still wondered about what happened to my account all this time then others do too. I think this thread has made it apparent how easy it actually is to attain the information after a period of time (albeit years) and what I'm saying is this: As a sign of goodwill (because, let's face it, a VAC ban can result in about £50-£60 worth of redundant video-games and not everybody is the malicious cheater that we're used to seeing) giving those who request it a reason for their ban, but after an allotted amount of time. The basic shelf-life of any hack or method of hacking certainly wouldn't be more than a month (every time a game is updated a hack becomes redundant, not to mention the delayed time between the incident and the actual ban.)

I guess, really, I'd just like to cushion the blow others have felt regarding VAC bans. Believe it or not, back when my computer was the centre of my attention it was a metaphorical kick in the groin to lose almost every game you own. Wouldn't want anybody else to feel that way! =P

EDIT: And in a false-positive scenario, the fact that you could potentially account for the incident that they're discussing means that you actually stand a chance of trying to figure out what triggered it and put up a fairly reasonable case.

[ch4ch4]

Originally Posted by Philip Omnis

I guess, really, I'd just like to cushion the blow others have felt regarding VAC bans. Believe it or not, back when my computer was the centre of my attention it was a metaphorical kick in the groin to lose almost every game you own. Wouldn't want anybody else to feel that way! =P

One doesn't exactly "lose" a game; you just lose the ability to play on secured servers.

[Satoru]

I'm still not really convicted as to the utility especially given that the probability that people do not know "why" they got banned is minuscule. I also don't see much utility for regular users in these rare edge cases. But can provide a lot of utility to cheat manufacturers. Especially in the whack a mole scenario of cheat detection.

In false positive scenarios it would make more sense to correlate data on a grander scale rather than on an individual level. Any individual case has almost zero utility since a user can "claim" anything under the sun it really doesnt prove anything.

[Wardiaper]

Originally Posted by Philip Omnis

I completely agree. But what bites me is that my actions outside of VAC has -no- relevance to this conversation as they only stand to make informed assumptions.

I think, to be honest, if there wasn't the witch-trial thing going on, people would be more honest and open about this whole business. I've not lied in this thread, I've merely withheld irrelevant information. Cheaters are seen as horrible pieces of work, and that may be the case, but condemning them does not fix the issue.

I'm one of those people that think you are what you do. When you apply for a job the employer wants to see what you have done with your life (our resumes). If we get caught doing something, all of a sudden we don't want our past to haunt us (our records).

I don't even mean to condemn cheaters - as in using this forum to poke fun at them. I just want to get them removed from the games they abused. The damage done by cheating is astronomical financially as well as affecting people that just want a fair game.

This isn't life or death. This isn't a violation of a person's rights. Gaming is a privilege (like driving) that you should lose when it is abused and hurting other people. This forum is full of people lying about what happened. I cannot even begin to deal with a liar.

The shame in all of this is that there are people (maybe yourself) that are wrongly caught up in this and cannot even be heard or believed because of so many cheaters that cannot accept personal responsibility.

[µR¼]

Originally Posted by philipla

I went and took a look at your account. The ban was from April 2007 for running a memory editing tool, and I see no evidence that suggests your account was hacked.

does this mean I can get an answer for my seemingly random vac ban?
http://steamcommunity.com/id/2135

I got banned long ago (5+ years), even wrote Valve a written letter about it. Reply : Na, we can't tell you why you got banned.

[Silicon Vampire]

No such thing as a "random" VAC ban. There is always a reason.

[DarkLite123]

Originally Posted by Satoru

I'm still not really convicted as to the utility especially given that the probability that people do not know "why" they got banned is minuscule. I also don't see much utility for regular users in these rare edge cases. But can provide a lot of utility to cheat manufacturers. Especially in the whack a mole scenario of cheat detection.

In false positive scenarios it would make more sense to correlate data on a grander scale rather than on an individual level. Any individual case has almost zero utility since a user can "claim" anything under the sun it really doesnt prove anything.

If a dev wants to test his hack, he'll play with it for a bit, wait, and see if he gets banned. SInce the hack is the only thing he's used, he already knows it's detected. An extra message saying that he was banned for "modifying game memory" or using a particular hack wouldn't tell him anything he doesn't already know.

[Verminus]

Originally Posted by DarkLite123

If a dev wants to test his hack, he'll play with it for a bit, wait, and see if he gets banned. SInce the hack is the only thing he's used, he already knows it's detected. An extra message saying that he was banned for "modifying game memory" or using a particular hack wouldn't tell him anything he doesn't already know.

Actually it might, especially if he is making a complex hack with multiple functions. Any information given about a particular ban might just be enough to tell, or at least point the dev in the direction of how or which part of the hack is being detected.

[ThatUselessMan]

Originally Posted by philipla

The specifics of that are not something that we'll talk about publically.

If stating the name of the memory editing program is sensitive, if anyone finds out they're not going to be able to commit fraud or anything. What's wrong with saying the name of one?

Also I download RATs onto my computer on purpose, then look at the connections via a Memory Editing program, if I left that open when I started a game, would I be banned?

[Omega_K2]

Example of memory editing program would be Cheat Engine, which is pretty common place for people trying to cheat in single player games (like setting expereince or resources to a high amount if not possible thouhg ingame cheats/mods).

Seems pretty common-sense that trying to use it on multiplayer game like CS:S would get you VAC banned.

I think part of the problem arises when you try to use it on multiplayer games with single players part. For example, CS:S listen server. AFAIK it still would get you banend if you play locally against bots; the reason would be that you are playing on a local, VAC protected server and not exactly in single player (possibly the only way to avoid it would be specifing -insecure in command line, but I would not try that :P

But source in general seems to be running like that, even HL2, so I think it might even possible to get a VAC ban if you mess around in HL2 (which is SP only), because HL2 uses source and VAC internally (unless it is diabled by default, I don't know).

I think the bottom line is, don't do it if you want to be on the safe side.

Though I think Valve could change their policy a bit in that regard, since there is no harm done in SP;
Paranoia mod also comes to mind, where that modded opengl file could cause a VAC Ban (a whitelist would seem appropinate here, if they could supply Valve with the changes so they can make sure it's not of malicous nature)

[Verminus]

Originally Posted by Omega_K2

I think part of the problem arises when you try to use it on multiplayer games with single players part. For example, CS:S listen server. AFAIK it still would get you banend if you play locally against bots; the reason would be that you are playing on a local, VAC protected server and not exactly in single player (possibly the only way to avoid it would be specifing -insecure in command line, but I would not try that :P

But source in general seems to be running like that, even HL2, so I think it might even possible to get a VAC ban if you mess around in HL2 (which is SP only), because HL2 uses source and VAC internally (unless it is diabled by default, I don't know).

I think the bottom line is, don't do it if you want to be on the safe side.

Though I think Valve could change their policy a bit in that regard, since there is no harm done in SP;
Paranoia mod also comes to mind, where that modded opengl file could cause a VAC Ban (a whitelist would seem appropinate here, if they could supply Valve with the changes so they can make sure it's not of malicous nature)

You may be right about the CS:S (and TF2) listen server part, but quite frankly if you are running a listen server on your machine to play with bots then you already have access to the developer console and the ability to do pretty much whatever you like in it without resorting to external cheats. (Wallhack? Check! unlimited ammo? Check! God mode? Check!! just about the only thing it can't do is Aimbotting, which is completely pointless by yourself against bots.)

Also I am pretty sure that in valves SP only games such as HL1, HL2 and its episodes VAC in not active.

As for "Mods" like Paranoia using altered openGL files to extend the graphics capabilities of the game engine and changing things that were not designed to be changed. As such in order to make the changes paranoia has to make the changes at the base level, meaning that the altered dll affects not only the paranoia mod but the base game and any other mods installed as well. It has been stated in the past that it is only a problem on the HL1 (goldsrc) engine and is a limitation of the engine itself. To "solve" the problem would require a complete rewrite of significant parts of the engine. This was done (as well as other improvements) and the result was the source engine which has much grater modding support.