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Old 04-20-2017, 12:07 PM   #46
The Medic
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by dontango View Post
Stopped reading at "way above average". Maybe have a look at the two other big Valve games, then you know what is average, what is above average and what is dead.
Left 4 Dead 1 and 2 would like a word with you.

Literally only bug fixes for security exploits.
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Old 04-20-2017, 12:40 PM   #47
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Umm, it is hard to do things with limited man(n)power. If you knew how programming works, you would be able to realise that. For a project with the size of TF2, 6 programmers is not enough. And when we consider that the rest of the TF Team are artists of some kind... yeah, I don't know what you are expecting.
The manpower issue is an issue created by the Valve devs, so that's not really relevant. Due to the way Valve works, the reason TF2 has a manpower problem is that nobody wants to work on it.

Ergo, the problem is that most of the people at Valve don't give a about TF2 any more.
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Old 04-20-2017, 12:59 PM   #48
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It is extremely relevant. Even if it is caused by themselves, the lack of manpower is still a primary reason why the development is so slow.

And I don't blame them for not caring. After 10 years of runtime after 10 years in development, I'd say that this is the time when most games would have literally no support at all.
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dontango View Post
Stopped reading at "way above average". Maybe have a look at the two other big Valve games, then you know what is average, what is above average and what is dead.
Yeah, if you could stop ridiculing people out of pure ignorance I'll have you know that Valve games are not the only games in existence, and that Valve is a single company supporting all of these games at the same time.

Have you any, literally any idea how many multiplayer games there exist on this planet - correction, how many 10-year-old multiplayer games there exist on this planet, and how many of them are still going as strong as TF2 is right now?

For reference, here is an example for dead, you

But if you insist on rating games at this high of a standard in terms of support, you are free to choose between the other five games in existence that suit your needs. CS:GO, Overwatch, LoL, DOTA 2, StarCraft II kind of maybe.
Just promise not to complain on their forums when they die in the next five to ten years, maybe two in case of StarCraft.



P.S. reason for me "insulting" you (really it's ridiculing) are the ten threads all on the same topic complaining about a problem that you're being a part of.
- You're certainly dragging any team down by always being a Sniper no matter how good you are.
- You were a newbie once too. You didn't get good at playing Sniper through switching to another class every game because there are always too many Snipers and Spies.
- No matchmaking could grant you equal skill levels for every single player in practice.
- Even if it was theoretically possible, you'd be searching for weeks to find a match due to the low amount of skilled players caring about Casual.

You're essentially making tons of threads on the same issue that can't be solved by anyone. Casual Matchmaking will never suit your exact needs no matter how you design it.

It's like complaining to the president that humans don't have wings to fly on their own. The president can't do anything about that. You just have to realize and accept that you can't grow functioning wings on people.

Last edited by Thurbo: 04-20-2017 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:26 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by sham1 View Post
It is extremely relevant. Even if it is caused by themselves, the lack of manpower is still a primary reason why the development is so slow.

And I don't blame them for not caring. After 10 years of runtime after 10 years in development, I'd say that this is the time when most games would have literally no support at all.
Yeah, I'm still surprised they're still supporting it honestly. But I also want to point out I wouldn't blame the people who are still trying to make shape something out of this game. If anything, it's the rule about getting more staff to have to adequate manpower to make it work, which they clearly aren't able to get.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:34 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Thurbo View Post
Yeah, if you could stop ridiculing people out of pure ignorance I'll have you know that Valve games are not the only games in existence, and that Valve is a single company supporting all of these games at the same time.

Have you any, literally any idea how many multiplayer games there exist on this planet - correction, how many 10-year-old multiplayer games there exist on this planet, and how many of them are still going as strong as TF2 is right now?

For reference, here is an example for dead, you

But if you insist on rating games at this high of a standard in terms of support, you are free to choose between the other five games in existence that suit your needs. CS:GO, Overwatch, LoL, DOTA 2, StarCraft II kind of maybe.
Just promise not to complain on their forums when they die in the next five to ten years, maybe two in case of StarCraft.



P.S. reason for me "insulting" you (really it's ridiculing) are the ten threads all on the same topic complaining about a problem that you're being a part of.
- You're certainly dragging any team down by always being a Sniper no matter how good you are.
- You were a newbie once too. You didn't get good at playing Sniper through switching to another class every game because there are always too many Snipers and Spies.
- No matchmaking could grant you equal skill levels for every single player in practice.
- Even if it was theoretically possible, you'd be searching for weeks to find a match due to the low amount of skilled players caring about Casual.

You're essentially making tons of threads on the same issue that can't be solved by anyone. Casual Matchmaking will never suit your exact needs no matter how you design it.

It's like complaining to the president that humans don't have wings to fly on their own. The president can't do anything about that. You just have to realize and accept that you can't grow functioning wings on people.
Yawn. On one hand i am a casual sniper baddie, on the other hand i'd have to wait for weeks to find a balanced match because there are not enough good players to go around?

But back to the point of this topic or my "demands". All you guys do is compare TF2 to "really unsupported" games that are 10 years old or older. But how many of them have between 50.000 and 70.000 concurrent players at any time? Most of the games you guys mention have 1/100th of that, or even less.

Now you can say: See, TF2 is alive and doing great so stfu. But my point is: Many many many of those players trade on SCM, every single transaction Valve profits from. They even buy items, hats and keys on the store. Those sales alone could hire an army of developers. And there would be way more sales if Valve could be bothered to go back to addin cosmetics and delivering quality updates.

Thus TF2's developer support clearly is dead when you take into consideration the amount of money they milk out of the game and the huge player base they have at hand. This makes the whole argument of the game being 10 years old irrelevant. Sure, if there would only be 400 players left, no one could "demand" the devs to get their together. It would just not be feasible. But with TF2.... please. They put in the bare minimum and still fail constantly.

Last edited by dontango: 04-21-2017 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:46 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dontango View Post
Yawn. On one hand i am a casual sniper baddie, on the other hand i'd have to wait for weeks to find a balanced match because there are not enough good players to go around?
I believe the point was that on the one hand you're a good sniper, but when the team doesn't require a sniper you're not as effective as another class.
On the other hand, you're still more skilled than most of the casual players and therefore a balanced match would be difficult to form.
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:23 AM   #53
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You do realise that if Valve hired developers specifically for the TF team, all the other teams would also demand more developers, right? It's very much a slippery slope.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:14 AM   #54
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You do realise that if Valve hired developers specifically for the TF team, all the other teams would also demand more developers, right? It's very much a slippery slope.

2014 was a good year for Valve, if market firm (....) With expenses and taxes accounted for, Valve’s net profit supposedly rests at around $730 million. (....)

I am sure the following two years were even better. Hiring additional developers would ruin them for sure. But maybe the community could contribute by buying another matchmaking or contract coin?
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:29 AM   #55
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I hate what Valve has done to TF2. Dumbing down the game, catering to the casual crowd, not just enabling but even encouraging players to pinkhearts about and be useless. Adding only a few basic tutorials and not making them mandatory, doing nothing about the servers full of clueless dead weight players. Adding bad maps, bad weapons, bad modes. Adding tons and tons of pointless cosmetics. Starting stuff but never finishing it. Ignoring bugs for months. Not testing stuff, just throwing it into the game and see what happens, somehow actually making matters worse when they claim to fix stuff. Steadily making the game run worse even on decent computers. Letting hackers ruin games unhindered for weeks or months or longer. Blocking DX8 users from Comp. Stubbornly refusing to remove random crits. And through it all, never communicating with us, never bothering to explain what they're doing or why, not responding to emails, not letting us know what's going on or what to expect.
It's a long list and I feel like I'm still forgetting a bunch of things. It might be shorter to make a list of the things they've done RIGHT in the past 6-7 years.

Honestly, I wish I had never started playing this game. I mean it, if I had known back in 2009 what this game would one day turn into, I never would have invested so much time and money in this game. But I did, and here I am now, with 5500+ hours played and a bunch of very expensive items. It makes it hard to quit, I'm hesitant to give all that up. And to be fair I sometimes still have sort of fun in this game, though it's gotten quite rare. These days it really happens only if I'm playing together with at least one friend (I've completely given up on playing solo) and we find a server where there's actually more than three other people who know what they're doing, no hackers or trolls or friendles, the teams aren't horribly imbalanced, the server isn't half empty or the map about to end etc etc. So I will probably keep playing for the time being, but I'm definitely not going to be buying any more keys. The way Valve has treated this game and this community is absolutely shameful. TF2 deserved so much better, and I would say we deserved better too, for that matter.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:02 AM   #56
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Holy cow just uninstall.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:06 AM   #57
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The issue starts with deciding what to even do. As you said, in terms of player-count and sales, TF2 is doing amazing.

For one, what does Valve want to change? Are any changes necessary from their perspective? I personally can't see them do too much to push TF2 way up in the competitive scene because they already have CS:GO.

The other question is, what do you want from the game? Obviously if you don't enjoy a game you also have the option to not play it, but what is it that would keep you playing?

From what I've gathered from the ten threads on the same topic, what you are looking for is teams being always equal in skill or at least a vast majority of the time, as well as fast (not having to wait hours) queue times in casual matchmaking, but that is certainly impossible to accomplish no matter how many developers Valve hired. It's simply an equation that can't be solved.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Thurbo View Post
The other question is, what do you want from the game? Obviously if you don't enjoy a game you also have the option to not play it, but what is it that would keep you playing?
To sum it up, i want a matchmaking service that tries to segregate new players from veterans. And no, i do not think that that would be impossible to achieve.

Why do i even want that? Why do i need it? That's a good question. I had a fine list of servers. (Yes, some of them were 24/7 badwater pubs). Quickplay would also send "noobs" to fill them in the morning but once the day continued, those new players would be replaced by people connecting to their fav server and in the evening, it made for 6-8 hours of fantastic gameplay with "regulars".

For some reason those servers are all dead now. And no, there are no new servers that took their place. If only i knew why they all died, i can't pinpoint the problem but i'll just blame Valve as usual. Oh wait, all of us know exactly why the community servers (outside of mge, soapdm and jump) are dead.
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:35 AM   #59
Mogh
 
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Holy cow just uninstall.
Not sure if you're talking to OP or me, but for me it's not that simple. I've played TF2 on most of the days of my life since 2009, it's kind of ingrained in me by now. I've had a ton of fun times in this game and made a number of friends too (though almost all of those have quit playing by now). As I said I've acquired a bunch of rare items (that I paid quite a bit of real money for), and TF2 is also the only online game I'm actually really good at (compared to the average player anyway). It's not easy for me to give all that up and start from scratch in a new game. But the biggest reason it's hard to 'let go', and I think maybe is the case for more people here, is that TF2 used to be so good, and I know it could be really good again if Valve would just make some real effort (and actually did things the right way). This game has so much potential, and there's still nothing else quite like it even with all its flaws. And as I said, sometimes the game is still fun, it's just that these days good rounds are few and far between, with a lot of frustration in between them.
Well, yeah, maybe I should just give up hope, and 2017 could be the year I finally quit this game. Although I said that to myself in 2016 too, and even in 2015 I think..
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:50 AM   #60
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Well I was talking to OP, but congrats to you as well on your decision to be permanently mad about a videogame.
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