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Old 04-15-2017, 11:42 AM   #1
BooleanBacon
 
 
 
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Should TF2 situationally restrict players from choosing pick classes?

Inb4 ur trolling or whatever such accusation.

New, low quality players are notorious for picking Spy and Sniper incessantly, even (especially?) when the team has too many. They are also notorious for their mediocre to poor mechanical skill and gamesense, leaving them performing terribly on these classes despite their intense reluctance to switch.

Spy and Sniper, meanwhile, are notorious for requiring some of the highest minimum levels of gamesense and mechanical skill to do really anything of use for the team. In addition, they are notorious for being two of the most worthless classes when stacked.

Put these two factors together, and 4-5 new players insisting on being Spy or Sniper can entirely annihilate a team's chance of victory. By all accounts, new players would be served better by learning to fight with combat classes or support with healers before they take up pick classes that need to understand habits of those classes to win their encounters with them. A new player who spends 50+ hours playing Scout and Soldier can pick up Spy and do better after 5 hours than someone who jumped straight into 75 hours of Spy and barely considered playing something else, insisting they should get to play what they want. New players who start out "maining" (ugh) Spy or Sniper are hobbling their own progress, improvement, enjoyment, and most importantly, their TEAM, to a truly distressing degree.


So I must ask: why is there not a global total limit of 3 combined spies and snipers, 2 per class tops? Also, why does the game do absolutely nothing to discourage new players from playing these classes? I don't care if you say people should be allowed to "have fun", because that's garbage. Nobody likes or has fun getting rolled, and the faster new players learn on classes that are better teachers of the game, the closer and more fun their games will be.

Last edited by BooleanBacon: 04-15-2017 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:56 AM   #2
MysticTheMeeM
 
 
 
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Tl;dr
"why we need class limits".
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Old 04-15-2017, 12:31 PM   #3
sham1
 
 
 
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Class limits mean that an experienced sniper or spy needs to just put up and shut up if people of lower skill ceiling have chosen to play his preferred class, and refusing to switch. Now, you may say that "the more experienced player should just choose another class".

Okay, I agree. However, there are certain, narrow, situations where going an one more spy or sniper might be good, although temporarily (quickly counter enemy sniper and then go solly or whatever to make everything safe for your own plays).
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Old 04-15-2017, 12:48 PM   #4
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I think class limit doesn't exist for the fact that, like sham1 said, if an experienced player wants to play his/her class, but there are too many players playing that class already, he/she is forced to play something he/she doesn't want that much.

And here's an interesting thing about players, or human beings.
Is not just about the class you like to play, but the class you CAN play. People who play Sniper are good with accuracy and aim, so maybe a projectile, such as a Soldier's rocket, might not sit well with the way they are and act.

The same goes the other way around. Someone could be good with projectiles, but can't land a single shot from a rifle or shotgun.

You can keep players for playing what they want, but forcing them to go something they can't play won't do any good to the team. Maybe not as bad as 5 Spies, but still bad.
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Old 04-15-2017, 12:56 PM   #5
BooleanBacon
 
 
 
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Some classes don't really need limits, though. Also, if there are class limits, there needs to be a way to boot idiots and griefers off important classes. Spy and Sniper though? Limits for days. More than 3 on any team = instant massive disadvantage, completely insurmountable if the 3 are bad. How can we make good players allowed to steal Sniper from baddies who need to go back to Soldier?
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Old 04-15-2017, 01:08 PM   #6
ViRaGisTe
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticTheMeeM View Post
Tl;dr
"why we need class limits".

Not a complete class limit, but preventing new players from selecting those classes until they rack up their skill level
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Old 04-15-2017, 01:14 PM   #7
BooleanBacon
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViRaGisTe View Post
Not a complete class limit, but preventing new players from selecting those classes until they rack up their skill level
Exactly this. 3 Plat HL snipers on a team can carry or even stomp singlehandedly. Noobs playing 3 Snipers? I pity that team. I honestly believe playing Spy or Sniper should be earned, not guaranteed
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Old 04-15-2017, 03:50 PM   #8
TMNWG
 
 
 
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Here's an idea. Tripple the existing playerbase, and have some servers with class limits to experiment with the idea.
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Old 04-16-2017, 05:03 AM   #9
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There should at least be some form of guidance or help messages (on respawn probably):

"Your team has a large amount of assassination classes and a low amount of combat classes. Consider switching to soldier/heavy/demo to power up your frontline!"

"Your team has a large amount of assassination classes but no medic. Consider playing medic to significantly boost the survivability of your team!"

Of course a proper tutorial that goes further than 'How 2 shoot' would probably alleviate many problems. They could go into more detail about the importance and roles of certain classes as well as the basics of using them and strengths/weaknesses.

Scout- flanking, getting close, picking battles

Soldier- groundshooting vs directs, basic rocket jumping

Pyro- Afterburn, airblast, use of secondaries

Demo- Role of stickies, role of nades, anti sentry capability

Heavy- Vulnerabilty to spies/snipers, vulnerability to focus fire/overextending

Engie- How to set up, basic placement tips, defending the sentry basics

Medic- Healing basics, The importance of 'you' and surviving, ubers

Sniper- Mechanics of the sniper rifle, key targets

Spy- Your 'toolkit' and how to use it, key targets, 'Sentry busting'

'How to win at tf2':
All about class composition and roles, expand on importance of medics, importance of majority combat classes on a team, specialist roles and why they shouldn't be stacked. Recommendation of AT LEAST 1 medic and 5 of soldier/demo/heavy/pyro per 12 man team for success.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:02 AM   #10
d4m0
 
 
 
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just remove sniper and spy, the game would be better for it
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:12 AM   #11
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Sure, let's remove strategic depth because butthurt. Why not.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:50 AM   #12
d4m0
 
 
 
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Sure, let's remove strategic depth because butthurt. Why not.
you could probably argue that any unique class provides some extra 'strategy' to play as or around but does that say anything about whether it's actually good strategy for the game?
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:33 AM   #13
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We are now at a point where our matches get made. Like what do you think, what percentage of new players plays outside of casual matchmaking? 1%? Even less.

Instead of arguing about class limits or a way to prevent new players from going 4 sniper 4 spy, making it nearly impossible for more experienced players to enjoy the game and win the round, we should demand that Valve finally get their together and use the matchmaking service to actually make fair matches.

Now you can defend Valve's way of "balancing" teams by putting 2 experienced players, 2 intermediates and 8 complete newbies in every team, thus making it kind of "balanced" in it's own way. Or you could call it lazy bull because this is exactly what it is.

Would people in CS:Go put up with this? 5on5, let's do 1 pro, 1 veteran and 3 newbies on each team? Would people in Dota 2 put up with it? No, they rightfully use some sort of skill tier mechanism in those Valve games. And it is about time that Valve got their act together and fixed TF2, too.

Do a pool for the new, inexperienced, underperforming, griefing or plain handicapped crowd. If they insist on playing 6th sniper, they'll stay in the pool. If they enjoy getting one kill in 18 deaths, let them stay in the pool. If they want to learn, if they improve, they'll get out of that pool and join the pool of intermediates & veterans.

As far as class limits go, it is the same if you discuss power classes or Sniper. Say you have a extremely good Sniper on red and 3 extremely bad Snipers on blue, the red Sniper will basically shut down your team. Yet you can't switch to Sniper because you have 3 bads hogging the slots with the Huntsman, hiding from the good Sniper or just plain being afk in spawn.
Same goes for taking out sentry nests. Your team can't push, you need to go demoman but you already have 3 demos on your team. 2 full blown demoknights with the booties and one newbie demoman who get's lost between one side of the spawn door and the other. That's how i imagine a class limit of 3 would look most of the time.

Last edited by dontango: 04-16-2017 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:58 AM   #14
sham1
 
 
 
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I don't know, a lot of CS:GO casual matches pretty much are the kind of "1 experienced, 1 intermediate, and rest new people"

And why do I refer to CS:GO's Casual? Because you were also talking about Casual.
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:26 AM   #15
dontango
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sham1 View Post
I don't know, a lot of CS:GO casual matches pretty much are the kind of "1 experienced, 1 intermediate, and rest new people"

And why do I refer to CS:GO's Casual? Because you were also talking about Casual.
Yes i was talking about Casual. "Competitive matchmaking" is already dead.
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