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12-16-2011, 06:05 AM   #16
captain_video

Join Date: Aug 2010
Reputation: 203
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Drakendodertje However, i was actually wondering about sudokus, not Squarelogic.Do you know anything about those as well? (in regard to my questions)
Sudoku puzzles should never require any guesswork either. In general, the puzzles you see in newspapers and magazines are constructed using computer software (just as this game has done), and the computer can verify a unique step-by-step solution. The hardest puzzles can leave you very frustrated looking for that next step.

Personally, I don't solve very many Sudokus, after a while they feel repetitive in how they work. Every so often I will do a 16x16 puzzle in a magazine I get, and those can take me a couple of hours, at least, so I won't do them in one sitting.

 02-25-2012, 11:08 AM #17 Rokanon   Join Date: Dec 2011 Reputation: 2 Posts: 42 Drakendodertje, the earlier poster is correct, some "very hard" sudoku puzzles require guessing. Like many others here, apparently, that's why I favor kenken over sudoku.
 02-25-2012, 11:51 AM #18 cwangersky   Join Date: Nov 2008 Reputation: 83 Posts: 332 I have to argue, Rokanon. A proper Sudoku does not require guessing; every square, by the definition of the puzzle, should be determinable logically. If you have to guess, either you haven't quite got the logic, or else the designer has made a mistake. Just as an aside: It has recently been discovered that in order to solve a 9x9 Sudoku, a minimum of 17 clues is required; a puzzle with 16 or fewer clues does not have a unique solution. (Not all 17-clue puzzles are solvable, of course...) http://www.math.ie/McGuire_V1.pdf Last edited by cwangersky: 02-25-2012 at 11:51 AM. Reason: typo
 03-04-2012, 01:22 PM #19 TiFFman      Join Date: Aug 2009 Reputation: 1 Posts: 47 I haven't found a Sudoku yet that you MUST guess. Now there are times where it takes me a long time to find the next step. I find if I'm spending tons of time stuck on one puzzle I move to another one or do something different, and when I come back I usually see the next move in a second :P. But back to the game, very enjoyable for me and thankful you guys put this out there. Working on the 100 no error streak right now . Also kudos for that awesome review. P.S. If you love Sudoku and this game you should take a look at Kakuro. Last edited by TiFFman: 03-04-2012 at 01:55 PM.
 03-04-2012, 04:53 PM #20 Rokanon   Join Date: Dec 2011 Reputation: 2 Posts: 42 Ah, yes. I should clarify. My current understanding of high level sudoku is that you will arrive at a point where the outcome is so ambiguous that you must essentially choose between two equally appropriate forking paths, following the various steps from that decision point until it either resolves or is unsolvable -- at which point, you know which forking path is correct! But in order to follow one or both of the forking paths it requires a leap of faith -- a "guess." Another way to think of it is simply following the logic down multiple paths, which might not be considered "guessing" as much as it is very extensive logic processing. This is how it was explained to me by players who are better than I am. This "forking path" point is also where I tend to give up on sudoku puzzles classified as "very hard." But I see your point quite well; semantically you might not call this guessing at all. Edit: of course, it's possible that these high level players were not as high level as they claimed, and perhaps some of you could school them. I don't claim to know. I do know that I dislike that apparent ambiguity in hard-level sudoku and this is a major reason why I prefer kenken and SquareLogic's adaptation. The Beyond puzzles are insane but very fair, and I've never once had a moment in even the hardest SquareLogic puzzles where I wasn't sure about the next step. Last edited by Rokanon: 03-04-2012 at 04:58 PM.
 03-05-2012, 09:49 AM #21 captain_video   Join Date: Aug 2010 Reputation: 203 Posts: 1,253 The theoretically hardest Sudoku puzzles with a provable unique solution, such as the ones starting with only 17 filled-in cells, can only be solved in reasonable time by computers using recursive programming methods; they are effectively unsolvable by humans, unless you wanted to spend weeks on one puzzle. The "challenger" puzzles you will find in newspapers and magazines will have been tested by expert solvers, who will have cracked them in under an hour. There are a variety of shortcuts they have learned and memorized to help reduce the need to work through alternate logic branches. Not everyone enjoys spending that much time on a single puzzle, which is nothing to be sorry about. KenKen puzzles can be made even harder than the hardest number puzzles in the Beyond region of SquareLogic. (I exclude the all-inequality puzzles, which are a PITA all to themselves.) Difficulty in KenKen is increased by using larger addition and multiplication cages, and by how two-cell subtraction and division cages are aligned on the grid, which can create possible ambiguities you have to work out via the logic. Squirrel's puzzle generator limits the size of addition and multiplication cages to four cells each, as a practical limit to the difficulty. Some of the books of KenKen puzzles put together by Will Shortz at the NY Times have some whopper-challenger puzzles in them, if you want to sample the extremes. The Sunday paper usually has two relatively easy KenKens in it, a 5x5 and a 7x7, but every so often they sneak in a super-challenger there as well.
 03-05-2012, 06:36 PM #22 Rokanon   Join Date: Dec 2011 Reputation: 2 Posts: 42 Very informative!
 03-06-2012, 05:20 PM #23 TwRecks   Join Date: Jun 2010 Reputation: 103 Posts: 335 The "forking path" method you describe is a logical technique known as proof by contradiction. If you think back, you may remember it from high school or above math classes; geometry is probably the first place of many it pops up. A truly truly horrid sudoku can require several layers of such assumptions. That's where it crosses the fun/work line for me lol.

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