Avoid the Hinds - Seriously!

[Derbysieger]

Sounds like you downloaded the whole game again. That's definitely not how it's supposed to be.

[Dwarden]

the patch was way smaller no idea why You redownloaded whole game ...
maybe ask STEAM support ... instead of blaming game developer

[Herbaceous]

All I know is I woke up one morning and found the whole game downloading - AFTER you had applied your game update. There was nothing I could do but let it complete, which took many days. But hey, easier to blame Valve, right?

Ironically, I kinda knew you'd pass the buck, as I've seen your online rep's do it so many times over the years... It's irritating that you Eastern European companies still haven't learned know how to calm your irate customers. Makes me angry actually, because I've bought every one of your (buggy) game releases.

I guess I won't be making that mistake again... Ahh, who am I kidding. I'll most likely buy ARMA 3, but seriously Dwarden, learn how to deal with your customers. You did the same thing to the OP. Not very professional, even if I am being an ♥♥♥♥ :P

[Jedra]

Hardly passing the buck - BI don't control the way valve distributes/downloads it's files or how Steam works.

Also, there was no need to bring their natioanality into it - it's not cricket at all.

[Herbaceous]

Originally Posted by Jedra

Hardly passing the buck - BI don't control the way valve distributes/downloads it's files or how Steam works.

Also, there was no need to bring their natioanality into it - it's not cricket at all.

Valve just distribute the games, they don't design the way developers choose to structure their file systems, or how large their patches will be. This is a conversation that's been had many many times concerning updates. The majority of companies seem to be able to get it right. Patches have gone from being small updates to correct bugs, to being as bad as the update I had to do with this game. It's a joke...

And as far as nationality goes, it was not meant as a racist comment. I live in the Baltics. If you've ever dealt with digital distributors or software companies over here, you'd know I'm not exaggerating. The all time classic Starforce DRM designers fiasco is a great example. People having problems with their PC's because of the DRM, not being able to run the games, and the company simply accusing them of being thieves. One of many instances. Do some research...

[MiG-21bis]

Originally Posted by Jedra

Hardly passing the buck - BI don't control the way valve distributes/downloads it's files or how Steam works.

Also, there was no need to bring their natioanality into it - it's not cricket at all.

This. It isn't BIS fault, it's Steam. I've had the same thing happen to New Vegas. Turn off automatic updates, problem fixed.

[Dwarden]

Originally Posted by Herbaceous

All I know is I woke up one morning and found the whole game downloading - AFTER you had applied your game update. There was nothing I could do but let it complete, which took many days. But hey, easier to blame Valve, right?

Ironically, I kinda knew you'd pass the buck, as I've seen your online rep's do it so many times over the years... It's irritating that you Eastern European companies still haven't learned know how to calm your irate customers. Makes me angry actually, because I've bought every one of your (buggy) game releases.

I guess I won't be making that mistake again... Ahh, who am I kidding. I'll most likely buy ARMA 3, but seriously Dwarden, learn how to deal with your customers. You did the same thing to the OP. Not very professional, even if I am being an ♥♥♥♥ :P

Originally Posted by Herbaceous

Valve just distribute the games, they don't design the way developers choose to structure their file systems, or how large their patches will be. This is a conversation that's been had many many times concerning updates. The majority of companies seem to be able to get it right. Patches have gone from being small updates to correct bugs, to being as bad as the update I had to do with this game. It's a joke...

And as far as nationality goes, it was not meant as a racist comment. I live in the Baltics. If you've ever dealt with digital distributors or software companies over here, you'd know I'm not exaggerating. The all time classic Starforce DRM designers fiasco is a great example. People having problems with their PC's because of the DRM, not being able to run the games, and the company simply accusing them of being thieves. One of many instances. Do some research...

do some research, our own retail patches are 1:10 to 1:100 smaller than than STEAM ones ...

it's Valve platform for distribution and theirs call how they built the updating system not ours

do some research before You raise tone and call someone names on this forums

also why you even bother bring DRM discussion here to table,
we are one of developers who removes DRM after several updates ...

the ARMA 2 and ARMA 2: OA are w/o it for erm ... year(s) ...
TOH is already w/o it too

[Herbaceous]

Originally Posted by Dwarden

do some research before You raise tone and call someone names on this forums

Again, you insist on publicly arguing with one of your customers, (which I will not bow away from), with no attempt at calming, which only strengthens the point I am making about customer support! No one is calling anyone names.

do some research, our own retail patches are 1:10 to 1:100 smaller than than STEAM ones ...

it's Valve platform for distribution and theirs call how they built the updating system not ours

I see you are segregating your Retail version from Steam's Digital Distribution method. Exactly what my initial point was about. Again you strengthen my argument about not working with Steam's client... You haven't given me any real reason as to why your software has problems updating on Steam, only short, defensive statements, which seem more emotional than factual.

Why not design and release a Steam version that works better with the Steam client? I'm sure your company doesn't mind taking the money that myself (and other Steam customers) fork out for your software through Steam. How about putting some of that cash towards making your software more friendly for this platform instead of only focusing on the Retail version and blaming Steam for being the problem because it's not as compatible for the Retail client? Surely, you do realize that Digital Distribution is strengthening massively in the marketplace and will likely be the future of gaming distribution, not retail?

also why you even bother bring DRM discussion here to table,
we are one of developers who removes DRM after several updates ...

You've taken the DRM example out of context too... I was using it because, at the time, it was a major disgrace to those representing Starforce. It was an example of poor customer service.

And as far as "removing DRM's after a few updates (around a year)" goes - it's a start... But on Steam there should be no DRM's anyway as it is already a DRM client, so let's not pretend like it's some kind of heroic move by Bohemia. And I'm sure its removal is because it's as much a hastle for your company as it is for us end-users.

I am more than aware of the companies that are, truly, making waves with outstanding customer service and excellent game production, such as CD Projekt RED, with their FREE addons/DLC and the removal of DRM's after a few weeks, not years. I'm sorry, but Bohemia needs to work a little harder to fall into that category...

[Jedra]

Herbaceous, give it a rest will you. You had a problem with Steam - it sometimes happens - not everyone had the same problem. I know it wasn't BI's fault (as everyone would have had the same problem), and I also actually doubt that it was Valve, a probably nothing you did either. Sometimes, ♥♥♥♥ just happens. These things are what make life interesting.

[Dwarden]

Originally Posted by Herbaceous

I see you are segregating your Retail version from Steam's Digital Distribution method. Exactly what my initial point was about. Again you strengthen my argument about not working with Steam's client... You haven't given me any real reason as to why your software has problems updating on Steam, only short, defensive statements, which seem more emotional than factual.

Why not design and release a Steam version that works better with the Steam client? I'm sure your company doesn't mind taking the money that myself (and other Steam customers) fork out for your software through Steam. How about putting some of that cash towards making your software more friendly for this platform instead of only focusing on the Retail version and blaming Steam for being the problem because it's not as compatible for the Retail client? Surely, you do realize that Digital Distribution is strengthening massively in the marketplace and will likely be the future of gaming distribution, not retail?

You seems not realized the problem has every single game which is patched by STEAM

this exclude new system which is being slowly rolled in last months

so if you have 1MB file and changed 1 byte, STEAM would would replace 1MB (download is smaller due to compression)

so if You had 100 or 1000MB file the problem was just bigger ...

again You show You argue for sake of argument w/o knowlege on the subject

You've taken the DRM example out of context too... I was using it because, at the time, it was a major disgrace to those representing Starforce. It was an example of poor customer service.

And as far as "removing DRM's after a few updates (around a year)" goes - it's a start... But on Steam there should be no DRM's anyway as it is already a DRM client, so let's not pretend like it's some kind of heroic move by Bohemia. And I'm sure its removal is because it's as much a hastle for your company as it is for us end-users.

I am more than aware of the companies that are, truly, making waves with outstanding customer service and excellent game production, such as CD Projekt RED, with their FREE addons/DLC and the removal of DRM's after a few weeks, not years. I'm sorry, but Bohemia needs to work a little harder to fall into that category...

STEAM has own DRM copyprotection again which is no different to these You speak about

again You show no knowledge on the subject

there are many ways how project can be protected on STEAM and we do all to make it easy for our users

imo again complain for sake of complain not constructive critics

[Herbaceous]

STEAM has own DRM copyprotection again which is no different to these You speak about

again You show no knowledge on the subject

there are many ways how project can be protected on STEAM and we do all to make it easy for our users

imo again complain for sake of complain not constructive critics

No.. Steam, in ITSELF is the only DRM needed for the games I buy on it and it is quite subtle. But that's a different debate for another time. I can live with Bohemia's DRM's for the meantime. That was never an issue...

As far as the updates go , let me try to spell out what I am talking about - Try using smaller compressed files in your games so Steam doesn't have to re-download 10+GB for a 10MB fix!! Eurika!

I'm not oblivious to the fact that this latest patch was a hickup, now that others have confirmed that the patch should have been smaller, so I apologize if my initial shock was misplaced. However, it's not as if Bohemia hasn't released enormous patches in the past, so my main point still stands.

Also, saying I have no knowledge on the subject does not make it so. I am quite well educated on the matter.

Anyway, This is already off-topic and I can see this debate is going absolutely nowhere so it's pointless continuing, as it will turn into an unnecessary flame war.

Kudos for holding your ground. On a personal level I'm sure you feel good. On a Bohemia representative level, you have damaged my opinion of your company greatly. Take whatever win you like from that because I'm done with this thread...

[Dwarden]

as manager for online distributions i'm the one prepares, manages and compiles the STEAM releases of our content on STEAM

thus i can assure You i know what i talk about when it comes to what STEAM can or can't ...

again size of files don't matter if we need fix 100MB files 100 times or one 10000MB file ... result is still 10GB of data being patched and replaced
compression type used on the files would not matter cause the system replacing while file only w/o touching content

so again it's not us releasing huge patches, it's STEAM system who required them to be this way

and like i said this will change in future when STEAM upgrade to new system of updates

there was no hitchup with latest update as You can see on this forum only handful (less than 11 people) had such issue, that would indicate there might be problem with some of the STEAM's content mirror servers causing people redownload whole game
something similar happened years ago with ARMA games ...

and I'm sorry to say that Your knowledge is completely wrong about the protection part ...

anyway my job isn't to make You or me feel good but set things straight clear

You decided to claim nonsense about our products, deflate our company approach

so i decided to correct that ... nothing less or more

[MiG-21bis]

Well, this has been a good case of the customer not being right and assuming that the mantra of "The Customer is always right" extends beyond the service industry.