Re-designing the Engineer.

PontifiCat · 11-01-2009, 07:16 AM

*Edited on the 09/11/09*

This came to me a while ago as I as thinking of ways to fix the four gimped classes in this game; the Heavy/Pyro/Spy and Engineer.
Heavy and Pyro are obvious to as what they need and Spy is still a mystery since he relies so much on the other teams ignorance, however I might have come up with a solution for the engie.
I believe this is how the engie should have been made from the outset. This isn't an unlock, it's a redesign of the vanilla engineer.

Engineer 2.0

Changes:

Engineer Buildings, Sentry/Dispenser/Teleporter now build at build in 4secs/8secs/8secs respectivly and this time is halfed again while being hit by wrench.
Dispenser can now overheal teamates directly proportional to its level. Level 3 overheals as much as a Medigun.
Engineer buildings can't be upgraded with the wrench, however they level up automaticly after getting a set amount of either Kills/Assists, Healing/Ammo resupplying or Teleports/Telefrags.

Reasoning:

Engineer is now more flexible, and isn't hurt by his sentry going down. Can now use his sentry along with his own weapons as an offensive force. Can be Offensive and sneaky positions.
De-centralises the metagame slightly away from medics alway being needed, much in the same vein as the sandvich or the Airblast flame quelling effect.
Stops sentry farming dead, as sentries packed together won't level up. However a good engineer with a sentry in a good position is rewarded. Reduces the engies massive reliance on ammo. Speeds up the game.

Possible Tweaks to the lvl 1 Sentry to aid it in surviving.

Level 1 sentry damage maybe getting an increase of damage spread to 35-50. To give them a better chance to deal damage against explosive classes at level 1.
level 1 takes only 1 hit, level 2 takes 2 hits & level 3 takes 3 hits to remove spy sappers. So level 1 can't be over run by spies and other classes but spies have a better chance at taking down a level 3 thats creating a Block.
It shouldn't take too long to for a Sentry to level up to level 2. Maybe 2 Kills and the equivelant of assists or 800 damage.

Ideas and aspects that I overlooked.

The engi must whack the sentry to upgrade it when it is ready, so it doesn't upgrade in the middle of being shot at. -SlappyMoose +Rep
A telefrag is rare enough and hard enough that, IMHO, it should grant an immediate level up to a teleport. -Hashmalum +Rep
The sentry should probably upgrade with damage done as well as kills/assists. that way if you manage to even assist in killing a heavy with the sentry, you'd get more than if you just killed a scout. -BlazeTDragon +Rep

Thanks

While I would be overjoyed if this was even made an unlock, I really liked the way this idea hindered sentry farming and back point setup that chokes the gameplay of TF2 and also means engies aren't helping there team in anyway 'till the last point had to be defended. It would simultaiusly help the engie in competitive matches as well as improve and sped up the gameplay in public server games. If this was only an unlock, it wouldn't fix this problem in public games.

Give this 5 Stars if you think it's a good idea.

cmokami · 11-01-2009, 07:47 AM

ok ideas for the sentry rankin up by kills, but the despenser and tleporter? it just doesnt work.

nice thoughts though

eradacater · 11-01-2009, 10:28 AM

This is a pretty interesting concept. I do like this idea.

PontifiCat · 11-01-2009, 12:24 PM

I thought my idea was so out there, I was expecting to come back to the angry flames of "You Nerfed my Sentry Farm" rage.

Anymore.....

SlappyMoose · 11-01-2009, 02:51 PM

I like it. It rewards engineers that build sentries in immediately effective locations, dispensers in helpful instead of selfish areas, and teles that are useful.

One suggestion: the engi must whack the sentry to upgrade it when it is ready, so it doesn't upgrade in the middle of being shot at.

I am 100% in favour of this change unless someone can find a real flaw with it.

Hashmalum · 11-01-2009, 03:22 PM

I like this concept, but as a toolbox loadout rather than a redesign. I think the real flaw (and the reason it can't replace the way buildings work/upgrade) is that it really suffers for a lack of momentum. If the other team is winning & not having a problem with your buildings, then newly placed buildings with 0 'experience' aren't going to help any more. Further, competitive maps that demand sentry spots (Such as points 1/5 on badlands) wouldn't be effective in the initial (potentially fatal) attack on your final control point.

That said, it's great for offensive engineers.

A telefrag is rare enough and hard enough that, IMHO, it should grant an immediate level up to a teleport.

Arcus2658 · 11-01-2009, 04:13 PM

How would you get your stuff to level 2/3 during setup on A/D or Payload maps? You could have buildings automatically upgrade during set-up faster, but after that it would be very hard to hold ground as you're pushed back and only have level 1 sentries to work with that you can't manually upgrade yourself with nearby (plentiful) ammo from crates and kills.

Why a buff to the Engineer's build speed if it's only a 1-2 second reduction? It sounds good on paper and is useful for offensive Engineering, but isn't necessarily a warranted change.

Why add overheal to the dispenser? People will end up clustering around it and making it an even higher priority for Demomen and Soldiers, and it implicitly lowers the ubercharge rate of Medics by taking away their main source of gaining uber (topping everyone up). Unless your Dispenser comes with an uber, Medics are still going to be important and the Dispenser can't replace his unique role (as it shouldn't).

I could see that as a sidegrade PDA/toolbox layout for offensive Engineering, but not as a replacement for the current system.

Winnfield · 11-01-2009, 06:36 PM

Maybe this would be a completely new sentry unlock? I don't like the idea of being constricted to offensive engineering, which is Sort of what the new system would tether me to.

PontifiCat · 11-02-2009, 06:58 AM

Thanks for all the input and critique. Is it just me or are the engie forums more calm and collected than the other sub-forums.

1) Its actually a much greater buff to his build speed than you think: his old non-wrenching speeds were 10 secs for the sentry and 20 secs for teleporter and dispenser.

2) Now that he can build sentries so fast with some finesse (hello engie skill ceiling) point 1 or 5 in badlands for instance can be very easily defended. You pop a sentry down overlooking the point or in the hallway while you run in with the shotgun. It builds so quickly that it kills the enemies in the middle. And yes it might get destroyed after a kill or two, but then you build another extremely quickly.
Obviously as stated in my initial post, the level 1 sentry would might need to be balanced to be slightly better.(armour,damage etc.) I'd also say that It should only take maybe 3 points to upgrade to level 2 (eg. 2 kills and 2 assists) and and maybe 2 more to reach level 3.

3)Yeah Hashmalum, great idea I was thinking anyway leveling up would be proportional to what the building did, assisst being half as good than kills etc.

Yes I know this would make the engie far more offensive in a sense and I understand completely your concerns in that regard.
However in his present state the engie is so far removed from the rest of the classes in terms of mobility that he suffers greatly.
And while I think it would do fine as an unlock, I really liked the way this idea hindered sentry farming and back point setup that choked the gameplay of tf2 and also meant engies weren;t helping in anyway 'till the last point had to be defended. If this was only an unlock, it wouldn;t fix this problem.

Thanks again.

Hashmalum · 11-02-2009, 07:00 AM

Can you clarify what you mean by 'sentry farming?'

PontifiCat · 11-02-2009, 07:05 AM

No problem:
http://www.ubercharged.net/wp-conten...g-for-matu.jpg

Just kidding, this is what I meant by sentry farm:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_nKpnW279kA0/R8...castle0029.jpg

I find that too many leveled up senties in the same place slows down the game and makes it so slow. My idea tries to (in theory at least) to fix engies in both competitive and public play.

I'm a a big fan of playing engie BTW.

battalion · 11-02-2009, 01:00 PM

an easier way to take down a sentry farm
http://www.ubercharged.net/wp-conten...g-for-matu.jpg

PontifiCat · 11-02-2009, 02:19 PM

You posted the same link as me! (??????)

Blaze T Dragon · 11-02-2009, 09:14 PM

The sentry should probably upgrade with damage done as well as kills/assists. that way if you manage to even assist in killing a heavy with the sentry, you'd get more than if you just killed a scout.

joey__storm · 11-03-2009, 08:13 AM

I like the sentry upgrade idea, I wouldn't like the sentry to get bigger, though. It would ruin the whole concept of 'sneaky spots' having a big obvious level 3 sentry standing somewhere. The sentry should stay the same size as a level one, but still increase in firepower. Maybe new plating/double barreled or something?

11-01-2009, 07:16 AM	#1
PontifiCat Join Date: Mar 2009 Reputation: 10 Posts: 263	Re-designing the Engineer. Edited on the 09/11/09 This came to me a while ago as I as thinking of ways to fix the four gimped classes in this game; the Heavy/Pyro/Spy and Engineer. Heavy and Pyro are obvious to as what they need and Spy is still a mystery since he relies so much on the other teams ignorance, however I might have come up with a solution for the engie. I believe this is how the engie should have been made from the outset. This isn't an unlock, it's a redesign of the vanilla engineer. Engineer 2.0 Changes: Engineer Buildings, Sentry/Dispenser/Teleporter now build at build in 4secs/8secs/8secs respectivly and this time is halfed again while being hit by wrench. Dispenser can now overheal teamates directly proportional to its level. Level 3 overheals as much as a Medigun. Engineer buildings can't be upgraded with the wrench, however they level up automaticly after getting a set amount of either Kills/Assists, Healing/Ammo resupplying or Teleports/Telefrags. Reasoning: Engineer is now more flexible, and isn't hurt by his sentry going down. Can now use his sentry along with his own weapons as an offensive force. Can be Offensive and sneaky positions. De-centralises the metagame slightly away from medics alway being needed, much in the same vein as the sandvich or the Airblast flame quelling effect. Stops sentry farming dead, as sentries packed together won't level up. However a good engineer with a sentry in a good position is rewarded. Reduces the engies massive reliance on ammo. Speeds up the game. Possible Tweaks to the lvl 1 Sentry to aid it in surviving. Level 1 sentry damage maybe getting an increase of damage spread to 35-50. To give them a better chance to deal damage against explosive classes at level 1. level 1 takes only 1 hit, level 2 takes 2 hits & level 3 takes 3 hits to remove spy sappers. So level 1 can't be over run by spies and other classes but spies have a better chance at taking down a level 3 thats creating a Block. It shouldn't take too long to for a Sentry to level up to level 2. Maybe 2 Kills and the equivelant of assists or 800 damage. Ideas and aspects that I overlooked. The engi must whack the sentry to upgrade it when it is ready, so it doesn't upgrade in the middle of being shot at. -SlappyMoose +Rep A telefrag is rare enough and hard enough that, IMHO, it should grant an immediate level up to a teleport. -Hashmalum +Rep The sentry should probably upgrade with damage done as well as kills/assists. that way if you manage to even assist in killing a heavy with the sentry, you'd get more than if you just killed a scout. -BlazeTDragon +Rep Thanks While I would be overjoyed if this was even made an unlock, I really liked the way this idea hindered sentry farming and back point setup that chokes the gameplay of TF2 and also means engies aren't helping there team in anyway 'till the last point had to be defended. It would simultaiusly help the engie in competitive matches as well as improve and sped up the gameplay in public server games. If this was only an unlock, it wouldn't fix this problem in public games. Give this 5 Stars if you think it's a good idea. Last edited by PontifiCat : 11-09-2009 at 07:37 AM.

11-02-2009, 06:58 AM	#9
PontifiCat Join Date: Mar 2009 Reputation: 10 Posts: 263	Thanks for all the input and critique. Is it just me or are the engie forums more calm and collected than the other sub-forums. 1) Its actually a much greater buff to his build speed than you think: his old non-wrenching speeds were 10 secs for the sentry and 20 secs for teleporter and dispenser. 2) Now that he can build sentries so fast with some finesse (hello engie skill ceiling) point 1 or 5 in badlands for instance can be very easily defended. You pop a sentry down overlooking the point or in the hallway while you run in with the shotgun. It builds so quickly that it kills the enemies in the middle. And yes it might get destroyed after a kill or two, but then you build another extremely quickly. Obviously as stated in my initial post, the level 1 sentry would might need to be balanced to be slightly better.(armour,damage etc.) I'd also say that It should only take maybe 3 points to upgrade to level 2 (eg. 2 kills and 2 assists) and and maybe 2 more to reach level 3. 3)Yeah Hashmalum, great idea I was thinking anyway leveling up would be proportional to what the building did, assisst being half as good than kills etc. Yes I know this would make the engie far more offensive in a sense and I understand completely your concerns in that regard. However in his present state the engie is so far removed from the rest of the classes in terms of mobility that he suffers greatly. And while I think it would do fine as an unlock, I really liked the way this idea hindered sentry farming and back point setup that choked the gameplay of tf2 and also meant engies weren;t helping in anyway 'till the last point had to be defended. If this was only an unlock, it wouldn;t fix this problem. Thanks again. Last edited by PontifiCat : 11-02-2009 at 07:01 AM.

11-02-2009, 07:05 AM	#11
PontifiCat Join Date: Mar 2009 Reputation: 10 Posts: 263	No problem: http://www.ubercharged.net/wp-conten...g-for-matu.jpg Just kidding, this is what I meant by sentry farm: http://lh5.ggpht.com/_nKpnW279kA0/R8...castle0029.jpg I find that too many leveled up senties in the same place slows down the game and makes it so slow. My idea tries to (in theory at least) to fix engies in both competitive and public play. I'm a a big fan of playing engie BTW. Last edited by PontifiCat : 11-02-2009 at 07:19 AM.

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11-01-2009, 07:47 AM	#2
cmokami Join Date: Jul 2009 Reputation: 31 Posts: 332	ok ideas for the sentry rankin up by kills, but the despenser and tleporter? it just doesnt work. nice thoughts though

11-01-2009, 10:28 AM	#3
eradacater Join Date: Nov 2007 Reputation: 3 Posts: 297	This is a pretty interesting concept. I do like this idea.

11-01-2009, 12:24 PM	#4
PontifiCat Join Date: Mar 2009 Reputation: 10 Posts: 263	I thought my idea was so out there, I was expecting to come back to the angry flames of "You Nerfed my Sentry Farm" rage. Anymore.....

11-01-2009, 02:51 PM	#5
SlappyMoose Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Reputation: 20 Posts: 1,168	I like it. It rewards engineers that build sentries in immediately effective locations, dispensers in helpful instead of selfish areas, and teles that are useful. One suggestion: the engi must whack the sentry to upgrade it when it is ready, so it doesn't upgrade in the middle of being shot at. I am 100% in favour of this change unless someone can find a real flaw with it.

11-01-2009, 03:22 PM	#6
Hashmalum Join Date: Oct 2009 Reputation: 35 Posts: 133	I like this concept, but as a toolbox loadout rather than a redesign. I think the real flaw (and the reason it can't replace the way buildings work/upgrade) is that it really suffers for a lack of momentum. If the other team is winning & not having a problem with your buildings, then newly placed buildings with 0 'experience' aren't going to help any more. Further, competitive maps that demand sentry spots (Such as points 1/5 on badlands) wouldn't be effective in the initial (potentially fatal) attack on your final control point. That said, it's great for offensive engineers. A telefrag is rare enough and hard enough that, IMHO, it should grant an immediate level up to a teleport.

11-01-2009, 04:13 PM	#7
Arcus2658 Join Date: May 2009 Reputation: 23 Posts: 606	How would you get your stuff to level 2/3 during setup on A/D or Payload maps? You could have buildings automatically upgrade during set-up faster, but after that it would be very hard to hold ground as you're pushed back and only have level 1 sentries to work with that you can't manually upgrade yourself with nearby (plentiful) ammo from crates and kills. Why a buff to the Engineer's build speed if it's only a 1-2 second reduction? It sounds good on paper and is useful for offensive Engineering, but isn't necessarily a warranted change. Why add overheal to the dispenser? People will end up clustering around it and making it an even higher priority for Demomen and Soldiers, and it implicitly lowers the ubercharge rate of Medics by taking away their main source of gaining uber (topping everyone up). Unless your Dispenser comes with an uber, Medics are still going to be important and the Dispenser can't replace his unique role (as it shouldn't). I could see that as a sidegrade PDA/toolbox layout for offensive Engineering, but not as a replacement for the current system.

11-01-2009, 06:36 PM	#8
Winnfield Join Date: Aug 2009 Reputation: 4 Posts: 48	Maybe this would be a completely new sentry unlock? I don't like the idea of being constricted to offensive engineering, which is Sort of what the new system would tether me to.

11-02-2009, 07:00 AM	#10
Hashmalum Join Date: Oct 2009 Reputation: 35 Posts: 133	Can you clarify what you mean by 'sentry farming?'

11-02-2009, 01:00 PM	#12
battalion Join Date: Sep 2009 Reputation: 3 Posts: 128	an easier way to take down a sentry farm http://www.ubercharged.net/wp-conten...g-for-matu.jpg

11-02-2009, 02:19 PM	#13
PontifiCat Join Date: Mar 2009 Reputation: 10 Posts: 263	You posted the same link as me! (??????)

11-02-2009, 09:14 PM	#14
Blaze T Dragon Join Date: May 2009 Reputation: 59 Posts: 607	The sentry should probably upgrade with damage done as well as kills/assists. that way if you manage to even assist in killing a heavy with the sentry, you'd get more than if you just killed a scout.

11-03-2009, 08:13 AM	#15
joey__storm Join Date: May 2009 Reputation: 2 Posts: 190	I like the sentry upgrade idea, I wouldn't like the sentry to get bigger, though. It would ruin the whole concept of 'sneaky spots' having a big obvious level 3 sentry standing somewhere. The sentry should stay the same size as a level one, but still increase in firepower. Maybe new plating/double barreled or something?