warning to valve raising the bar = fail (sometimes)

Boff · 11-02-2009, 08:34 AM

Have you noticed the thin line between success and failure,
especially with franchises.

You got the fans wanting the same thing
then you got the fans who want the same thing but with a twist,
then you got the fans who want radically different material than the source materail
then you got the fans who want EVEN MORE AND BIGGER AND BETTER
then you have the artist who ofcourse wants to please themselves, their ego's, the fans, and generally they have their own amibitions, and earn a chunk to bring food home for their loved ones.

Some franchises drives themselves into a rut, others loose their audience in attempt to be raise the bar than the source material.

Today I'm going to bring up two such movie franchises, who raised the bar and failed.
Starwars and The matrix.
Both storywise, killed the mystery that made the first films so create (matrix back story, and effing medichlorians)

Starwars gets a little messy due to george lucas's own design choices,
back in the day of the originals he had lots of physical things that said he couldn't do what he wanted, (actors who changed the dialogue, directors who altered his "vision", limited special effects)
all boiled down to a good series.
Now with the new series, everyone who works on starwars just says yes to george and get's it done.
Sadly if you listen to the commentary, George is a smart guy and had some deep things he talks about with the films but just forgot to put them in, of if he did, it got goofed up into a cheesball badly acted 1920's black and white hash up (which is part and parcel of what Georgeyboy wanted to do but got denied first time round)

The starwars prequels storylines are way more intricate and detialed than the first.
Technically with special effects they are everything we could have dreamed off,
but due to dodgy george lucas handling of the films, he just killed them,
(please see spoony's review of IndyIV it'd make you laugh)
I can't really discuss how the prequels have this technically bigger and better thing on paper, because George just executed the whole thing so badly to make an accurate comparison.

so aside from starwars bashing, lets go to something more modern and tangiable which is a little more inline (less room to argue) with my initial start.

The Matrix, set up so many things, muddy back story, live-action japanese manga, chinese kung-fu cinematography and cheorography, and wonderful sci-fi edge and philisophical (zen-esque) shimmer to the ending sequence....very martial arty.

The second and third films raised the bar, literally,
bigger and better and longer fight sequences,
special effects shot through the roof,
a confrontation that would conclude the story (which from the outset of the original film seamed impossible to even comprehend), and explanation of the begining of the story and a few clarifications along the way,
and at the end, it failed.
It let down the premise of the original movie.
Which I find odd.
The films did exactly what you wanted them to do, but killed that which you loved in the process.

it's a precious line to walk is this franchise thing,

mimaz98 · 11-02-2009, 08:45 AM

All legitimate concerns, of course, but I'm pretty sure Valve - and the Half-Life series - are in safe hands, Boff.

nightcabbage · 11-02-2009, 08:53 AM

If they fail they DROPPED the bar...

Staying true to an original concept that did exceptionally well while improving upon it can be a tricky task I imagine. So many expectations that the originals never would have had.

L. Power · 11-02-2009, 11:37 AM

You have to talk less about Star Wars and more about the Half Life saga, just my opinion.

.n£º.§ty|e$ · 11-02-2009, 11:52 AM

From my experience, most fans want a combination of all of the above and part of knowing your fanbase well, is to know how to create that balance...

Stupoider · 11-02-2009, 01:24 PM

The Deathly Hallows had a terrible, clichéd ending. I hope the HL series doesn't have a clichéd ending.

L. Power · 11-02-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupoider

The Deathly Hallows had a terrible, clichéd ending. I hope the HL series doesn't have a clichéd ending.

Ending? There won't never be no not an ending!

slayer20 · 11-02-2009, 01:44 PM

I hope Half-Life ends with a well put cliff hanger.

Something that can end the series, but leave you wondering.

mrJoshfella · 11-02-2009, 01:56 PM

Gordon better not die or

nightcabbage · 11-02-2009, 02:14 PM

Yeah, because Gordon has NEVER died before...

Boff · 11-02-2009, 02:41 PM

okay Half life 1.

Research Lab with concrete, pipes, and some specacular architecture that baffled your senses as to why anyone would build such a cathedral like place with a radioactive pool at the bottom in the middle of a ungerground missile silo complex reffited into a science facility.

There was this whole back story of the science team secret abducting creatures from xen during it's teleportation expirements in the lambda section of the base, gordon did not know (from the players own ignorance) about such things, and the invasion may have been more retatliation.

Then comes Half life 2, out with xen and other worlds, begone close quarter science labs and office battles, lets have urban scrawl in a dystopian earth under the heal of an alien species that has NO connection to the original game (without a bit of creative back-peddling)

Now most of HL2 feels like a tech demo, and it's not until anticitizen one does the game start to gather pace and have the same kind black mesa - half life feel to it all especially when for one brief moment you were picking your way in between the striders feet in that plaza outside the nexus building.

Episode one for me was the pure distilled best bits of HL2, which entire premise to me felt like an explanation of the people of city 17 were okay after gordon took out the portal reactor, and basically at the end of ep1 we were left in the same position as HL2 (citadel exploding) but this time a politically correct ending when the citizens had evacuated.
However they perfected everything that made HL2 so great in ep1.

but people complained about this format.

Valve listened and generated HL2 episode two , Well it was in mid production anyway, hunter-jalopy-alyx-injured-and g-man scene.
but being tailored to yet again to be the distilled HL2 product.
The vehicle sections of Ep2 are better than HL2, the muscle car becomes not just a gimmick, not just means of transport, but a valuable tool, almost a life-line, I almost started to have affectionate feelings for it when it developed weapon storage capacity by the end of the episode, if it only provided a little more shelter, and could regenerate health it could be real cozy, a sort of luke-skywalkers x-wing kind've thing, we already have a R2-unit (gnome)
however, despite the goodness of the muscle care,
it still felt like a ticking off the boxes of the half life 2 game.
[check] Yes got the radioactive zombe scene
[check] see saw puzzle
[check] vehicle section

Even the ant-lion caves (which are a graphical tour-de-force) and are amazing felt very out of place but also very much in place. Offering new and interesting gameplay style.

All in all ep2 was this superior product in every way, including acting and story.
But towards the end there, I was getting bored with all the talky talky dialogue exposition, and Eli's broadcast to the world with all the "don't worry we'll solve all the world problems when you get back",
we practically worked out eli was about to get wiped out, but valve insisted on using that scene from Hot-shots with deadmeat starting his final flight.

It just felt like they were trying a bit too hard, or just made things better, but at the same time, not.

I'm just getting a little worried about my favourite gaming company that's all.

HL1 was defined by black mesa

HL2 was defined by city 17 and it took the game for that to sink in.
Ep1 perfected HL2 experience by giving the city17 experience that bit of polish.
Ep2 doesn't HAVE city 17, and now in my little head, were are moving into un-half life 2 situations.

Valve can't keep beating the same stuff, Black mesa / city 17, this is why they keep nuking them.
moving the story linearly forward with no going back, giving the fans the story that want,

but then again so did the matrix, and look how that ended, in the only logical "happy ending" the series could have had (in a truce with the machines and neo being the instrument of that truce).

Halflife is moving story-wise in a logical progressive state giving us more of what we wanted.
Did that work for lost ? by adding in even more intruiging coincidences that cross over several peoples lives?

Did that work for the startrek franchise ? it felt like the brightest minds of Star-fleets Research and development team built voyager and then crewed her, as they managed to do crap that 7 years on the flagship of starfleet tooing and throwing from main star-fleet hubs never did at all.
Voyager started to jump the shark so much (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark)that the series needed a reboot,
and Enterprised failed as although it went lo-tech, the tactics and storylines remained suspiciously too fast and pacy for what you'd expect.

I mean HL2 has jumped the shark a bit, or had a few too many deux ex-s and then had deus-exes to dues ex us out of the original deus ex. This i mean the vortiguants and g-man
G-man likes to play the the all powered wizard of oz, and it's only a matter of time before the curtain is drawn back to show his almighty power or just series of misdirectional tricks.
but then the vorts kidnap gordon from g-man, raising many questions, such as WHY that wasn't done earlier.
Oh and they rescued alyx, was she also under g-mans influence, and they rescued her the same as gordon, or did they just stop time and take her too.

oh and then they didn't blooming well "save" her from that hunter at the begining of ep2, but they did technically bring her back from near death.....yet another miraculous skill they have
Why the hell didn't they just stop time and save Eli???

I mean ep3 has to do some normalisation there, as there are some HEFTY plot holes with regards the vorts and g-man powers, (which can be sorted out by some stating certain motives of said characters)

but then again explaining too much is a killer too (matrix, medichlorians, absurd time jumping island ora 13 tribe that were infact robots who were superior to their superior offspring......grrr.....This is what happens when mysteries are embelished and ambigious characters are sat on the fence or misdirected too many times, it ends up having the worlds most pathetic unsatisfying explanation, or the worlds freakiest bezier curve of an explanation to join all the dots in the plot).
Darn I need to go watch babylon5 to calm my head down.

Nomad Trooper · 11-03-2009, 05:23 AM

Great thread.
Thanks for making me worry that EP3 will suck now.

gorpie · 11-03-2009, 06:00 AM

I don't think Ep3 will suck.

While it's true that Lost got sucky (IMO), I don't think Galactica did.

nightcabbage · 11-03-2009, 07:01 AM

I think Galactica did get sucky, but then redeemed itself with the ending.

mimaz98 · 11-03-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorpie

I don't think Ep3 will suck.

While it's true that Lost got sucky (IMO), I don't think Galactica did.

Lost has only gotten better, really, I think. Season 5 was rather unfocused, what with the writer's trying so hard to tie plot elements up in a hurry, but I think the general quality has always been far above that of other shows. Looking forward immensely to Season 6.

11-02-2009, 08:34 AM	#1
Boff Join Date: Aug 2005 Reputation: 61 Posts: 1,685	warning to valve raising the bar = fail (sometimes) Have you noticed the thin line between success and failure, especially with franchises. You got the fans wanting the same thing then you got the fans who want the same thing but with a twist, then you got the fans who want radically different material than the source materail then you got the fans who want EVEN MORE AND BIGGER AND BETTER then you have the artist who ofcourse wants to please themselves, their ego's, the fans, and generally they have their own amibitions, and earn a chunk to bring food home for their loved ones. Some franchises drives themselves into a rut, others loose their audience in attempt to be raise the bar than the source material. Today I'm going to bring up two such movie franchises, who raised the bar and failed. Starwars and The matrix. Both storywise, killed the mystery that made the first films so create (matrix back story, and effing medichlorians) Starwars gets a little messy due to george lucas's own design choices, back in the day of the originals he had lots of physical things that said he couldn't do what he wanted, (actors who changed the dialogue, directors who altered his "vision", limited special effects) all boiled down to a good series. Now with the new series, everyone who works on starwars just says yes to george and get's it done. Sadly if you listen to the commentary, George is a smart guy and had some deep things he talks about with the films but just forgot to put them in, of if he did, it got goofed up into a cheesball badly acted 1920's black and white hash up (which is part and parcel of what Georgeyboy wanted to do but got denied first time round) The starwars prequels storylines are way more intricate and detialed than the first. Technically with special effects they are everything we could have dreamed off, but due to dodgy george lucas handling of the films, he just killed them, (please see spoony's review of IndyIV it'd make you laugh) I can't really discuss how the prequels have this technically bigger and better thing on paper, because George just executed the whole thing so badly to make an accurate comparison. so aside from starwars bashing, lets go to something more modern and tangiable which is a little more inline (less room to argue) with my initial start. The Matrix, set up so many things, muddy back story, live-action japanese manga, chinese kung-fu cinematography and cheorography, and wonderful sci-fi edge and philisophical (zen-esque) shimmer to the ending sequence....very martial arty. The second and third films raised the bar, literally, bigger and better and longer fight sequences, special effects shot through the roof, a confrontation that would conclude the story (which from the outset of the original film seamed impossible to even comprehend), and explanation of the begining of the story and a few clarifications along the way, and at the end, it failed. It let down the premise of the original movie. Which I find odd. The films did exactly what you wanted them to do, but killed that which you loved in the process. it's a precious line to walk is this franchise thing,

11-02-2009, 02:41 PM	#11
Boff Join Date: Aug 2005 Reputation: 61 Posts: 1,685	okay Half life 1. Research Lab with concrete, pipes, and some specacular architecture that baffled your senses as to why anyone would build such a cathedral like place with a radioactive pool at the bottom in the middle of a ungerground missile silo complex reffited into a science facility. There was this whole back story of the science team secret abducting creatures from xen during it's teleportation expirements in the lambda section of the base, gordon did not know (from the players own ignorance) about such things, and the invasion may have been more retatliation. Then comes Half life 2, out with xen and other worlds, begone close quarter science labs and office battles, lets have urban scrawl in a dystopian earth under the heal of an alien species that has NO connection to the original game (without a bit of creative back-peddling) Now most of HL2 feels like a tech demo, and it's not until anticitizen one does the game start to gather pace and have the same kind black mesa - half life feel to it all especially when for one brief moment you were picking your way in between the striders feet in that plaza outside the nexus building. Episode one for me was the pure distilled best bits of HL2, which entire premise to me felt like an explanation of the people of city 17 were okay after gordon took out the portal reactor, and basically at the end of ep1 we were left in the same position as HL2 (citadel exploding) but this time a politically correct ending when the citizens had evacuated. However they perfected everything that made HL2 so great in ep1. but people complained about this format. Valve listened and generated HL2 episode two , Well it was in mid production anyway, hunter-jalopy-alyx-injured-and g-man scene. but being tailored to yet again to be the distilled HL2 product. The vehicle sections of Ep2 are better than HL2, the muscle car becomes not just a gimmick, not just means of transport, but a valuable tool, almost a life-line, I almost started to have affectionate feelings for it when it developed weapon storage capacity by the end of the episode, if it only provided a little more shelter, and could regenerate health it could be real cozy, a sort of luke-skywalkers x-wing kind've thing, we already have a R2-unit (gnome) however, despite the goodness of the muscle care, it still felt like a ticking off the boxes of the half life 2 game. [check] Yes got the radioactive zombe scene [check] see saw puzzle [check] vehicle section Even the ant-lion caves (which are a graphical tour-de-force) and are amazing felt very out of place but also very much in place. Offering new and interesting gameplay style. All in all ep2 was this superior product in every way, including acting and story. But towards the end there, I was getting bored with all the talky talky dialogue exposition, and Eli's broadcast to the world with all the "don't worry we'll solve all the world problems when you get back", we practically worked out eli was about to get wiped out, but valve insisted on using that scene from Hot-shots with deadmeat starting his final flight. It just felt like they were trying a bit too hard, or just made things better, but at the same time, not. I'm just getting a little worried about my favourite gaming company that's all. HL1 was defined by black mesa HL2 was defined by city 17 and it took the game for that to sink in. Ep1 perfected HL2 experience by giving the city17 experience that bit of polish. Ep2 doesn't HAVE city 17, and now in my little head, were are moving into un-half life 2 situations. Valve can't keep beating the same stuff, Black mesa / city 17, this is why they keep nuking them. moving the story linearly forward with no going back, giving the fans the story that want, but then again so did the matrix, and look how that ended, in the only logical "happy ending" the series could have had (in a truce with the machines and neo being the instrument of that truce). Halflife is moving story-wise in a logical progressive state giving us more of what we wanted. Did that work for lost ? by adding in even more intruiging coincidences that cross over several peoples lives? Did that work for the startrek franchise ? it felt like the brightest minds of Star-fleets Research and development team built voyager and then crewed her, as they managed to do crap that 7 years on the flagship of starfleet tooing and throwing from main star-fleet hubs never did at all. Voyager started to jump the shark so much (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark)that the series needed a reboot, and Enterprised failed as although it went lo-tech, the tactics and storylines remained suspiciously too fast and pacy for what you'd expect. I mean HL2 has jumped the shark a bit, or had a few too many deux ex-s and then had deus-exes to dues ex us out of the original deus ex. This i mean the vortiguants and g-man G-man likes to play the the all powered wizard of oz, and it's only a matter of time before the curtain is drawn back to show his almighty power or just series of misdirectional tricks. but then the vorts kidnap gordon from g-man, raising many questions, such as WHY that wasn't done earlier. Oh and they rescued alyx, was she also under g-mans influence, and they rescued her the same as gordon, or did they just stop time and take her too. oh and then they didn't blooming well "save" her from that hunter at the begining of ep2, but they did technically bring her back from near death.....yet another miraculous skill they have Why the hell didn't they just stop time and save Eli??? I mean ep3 has to do some normalisation there, as there are some HEFTY plot holes with regards the vorts and g-man powers, (which can be sorted out by some stating certain motives of said characters) but then again explaining too much is a killer too (matrix, medichlorians, absurd time jumping island ora 13 tribe that were infact robots who were superior to their superior offspring......grrr.....This is what happens when mysteries are embelished and ambigious characters are sat on the fence or misdirected too many times, it ends up having the worlds most pathetic unsatisfying explanation, or the worlds freakiest bezier curve of an explanation to join all the dots in the plot). Darn I need to go watch babylon5 to calm my head down. Last edited by Boff : 11-02-2009 at 02:48 PM.

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11-02-2009, 08:45 AM	#2
mimaz98 Join Date: Oct 2006 Reputation: 518 Posts: 17,054	All legitimate concerns, of course, but I'm pretty sure Valve - and the Half-Life series - are in safe hands, Boff.

11-02-2009, 08:53 AM	#3
nightcabbage Join Date: Jan 2007 Reputation: 233 Posts: 1,627	If they fail they DROPPED the bar... Staying true to an original concept that did exceptionally well while improving upon it can be a tricky task I imagine. So many expectations that the originals never would have had.

11-02-2009, 11:37 AM	#4
L. Power Join Date: May 2009 Reputation: 7 Posts: 727	You have to talk less about Star Wars and more about the Half Life saga, just my opinion.

11-02-2009, 11:52 AM	#5
.n£º.§ty\|e$ Join Date: Jan 2009 Reputation: 44 Posts: 470	From my experience, most fans want a combination of all of the above and part of knowing your fanbase well, is to know how to create that balance...

11-02-2009, 01:24 PM	#6
Stupoider Join Date: Mar 2007 Reputation: 22 Posts: 1,798	The Deathly Hallows had a terrible, clichéd ending. I hope the HL series doesn't have a clichéd ending.

11-02-2009, 01:44 PM	#8
slayer20 Join Date: Jun 2005 Reputation: 28 Posts: 1,997	I hope Half-Life ends with a well put cliff hanger. Something that can end the series, but leave you wondering.

11-02-2009, 01:56 PM	#9
mrJoshfella Join Date: Jul 2009 Reputation: 0 Posts: 5	Gordon better not die or

11-02-2009, 02:14 PM	#10
nightcabbage Join Date: Jan 2007 Reputation: 233 Posts: 1,627	Yeah, because Gordon has NEVER died before...

11-03-2009, 05:23 AM	#12
Nomad Trooper Join Date: May 2008 Reputation: 24 Posts: 474	Great thread. Thanks for making me worry that EP3 will suck now.

11-03-2009, 06:00 AM	#13
gorpie Join Date: Sep 2009 Reputation: 29 Posts: 961	I don't think Ep3 will suck. While it's true that Lost got sucky (IMO), I don't think Galactica did.

11-03-2009, 07:01 AM	#14
nightcabbage Join Date: Jan 2007 Reputation: 233 Posts: 1,627	I think Galactica did get sucky, but then redeemed itself with the ending.